Allied Intelligence in Japan

[mind_messing]

I'll ask the forum here, as someone's likely to know too much about the issue for their own good:

Before the war, were there any Allied intelligence agents operating in Japan?

During the war, were there any Allied efforts to insert agents into Japan?

NB: When I refer to Japan, I mean the Japanese Home Islands and not Allied agents in China and elsewhere.

[crsutton]

Probably not an active presence during the war. But we had an embassy there up to the start of the war and embassies generally mean some sort of intelligence gathering. Before the militarist took over relations were good and that would have allowed more freedom to US agents. We knew where Japanese industrial plants were and what they were producing primarily because they were in place before the war. During the war we got some information from the Soviets who still had diplomatic relations and we were reading the Japanese diplomatic code.

[Lecivius]

From reading Silent Service, I know agents were dropped off on mainland Japan. I have never seen what they were about. Curiously, now that I think on it, I don't recall off the top of my head any mission to pick an agent up. Troops, and civvies caught up in the war etc., yes. But I don't recall seeing any agent pickup reports.

[JeffroK]

Hector Bywater, of the Great Pacific War fame, collected a lot of info on the IJN at least for British Naval Intel. Amongst his friends was Yamamato.

But someone has to believe his information.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

From reading Silent Service, I know agents were dropped off on mainland Japan. I have never seen what they were about. Curiously, now that I think on it, I don't recall off the top of my head any mission to pick an agent up. Troops, and civvies caught up in the war etc., yes. But I don't recall seeing any agent pickup reports.

What book is this, and can you elaborate on the nature of the missions?

[Lecivius]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

From reading Silent Service, I know agents were dropped off on mainland Japan. I have never seen what they were about. Curiously, now that I think on it, I don't recall off the top of my head any mission to pick an agent up. Troops, and civvies caught up in the war etc., yes. But I don't recall seeing any agent pickup reports.

What book is this, and can you elaborate on the nature of the missions?

https://www.amazon.com/Silent-Service-U ... nt+service

Missions were to drop off agents, then proceed on a war patrol. While not common, they were not altogether uncommon. The book never described the agents mission, just the boat who dropped the agent.

[spence]

Missions were to drop off agents, then proceed on a war patrol. While not common, they were not altogether uncommon. The book never described the agents mission, just the boat who dropped the agent.

Don't remember it very well but I recall an OLD flic where a submarine dropped off a couple of guys so that they could forward a weather report to Halsey's TF for the Doolittle Raid. The same sub retrieved the weather guys after their report/perhaps after the raid. I wouldn't be surprised if the flic had nothing to do with reality though it does portray a pick-up too.

From what I've read the racism of Americans combined with the homogenous society of the Japanese to make inserting any kind of agent very very difficult. Even Japanese who migrated to a Western country and subsequently returned to Japan were never really integrated back into Japanese society.

[geofflambert]

Koreans.

[Macclan5]

It depends upon your definition of Allied.

The USSR had various and many (according to speculation and KGB released files in recent years) spied in Japan in WW2.

Richard Sorge and Ozaki to name the most famous.

However they both had extensive networks never revealed nor prosecuted ; further the Imperial Government maintained high level diplomatic accord with the USSR through out the war hoping Stalin would mediate as the USA steamroller was occurring. Uncle Joe played coy till the very last even warning the Japanese of Allied raids on Formosa leading up to the the landings on Leyte. The USSR had much intelligence from diplomacy no doubt.

I am unfamiliar with intelligence assets on the western allied side - primarily American or British. Both had high level contacts leading up to the war and so would glean some Military intelligence prior to Pearl Harbor, Hong Kong, and Singapore.

If the IJN truly hid the existence of Yamato and Mushashi from the Allies till 1944 as often stated - this infers that American British intelligence was poor. Hard to hide Battleships that large 100% of the time

[MakeeLearn]

Many Allied spies outside of Japan, especially in the Philippines.




Claire Phillips

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... 37884aa609

http://www.newsweek.com/honey-trap-clai ... war-639866

[MakeeLearn]

Philippines

Richard Sakakida

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Sakakida

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Macclan5


It depends upon your definition of Allied.

The USSR had various and many (according to speculation and KGB released files in recent years) spied in Japan in WW2.

Richard Sorge and Ozaki to name the most famous.

However they both had extensive networks never revealed nor prosecuted ; further the Imperial Government maintained high level diplomatic accord with the USSR through out the war hoping Stalin would mediate as the USA steamroller was occurring. Uncle Joe played coy till the very last even warning the Japanese of Allied raids on Formosa leading up to the the landings on Leyte. The USSR had much intelligence from diplomacy no doubt.

I am unfamiliar with intelligence assets on the western allied side - primarily American or British. Both had high level contacts leading up to the war and so would glean some Military intelligence prior to Pearl Harbor, Hong Kong, and Singapore.

If the IJN truly hid the existence of Yamato and Mushashi from the Allies till 1944 as often stated - this infers that American British intelligence was poor. Hard to hide Battleships that large 100% of the time

The Japanese went to extraordinary lengths to hide the Yamato BB program.
1. Budgetary appropriations in the Diet referred to three Treaty sized 35,000 ton BBs and three 27,000 ton BCs ( the "Chibuchi class that would - in imagined design - have been similar to the US Alaska class CBs built in response to the Japanese appropriation).
2. The construction berths were shielded by a wall and ceiling of camouflage netting
3. Every component shipped in was well crated to disguise what it was
4. Every worker at the dockyard and major component manufacturer (like gun barrels) was sworn to secrecy on penalty of death
5 Every worker was investigated for security risks
6. Design work was done in the shipyard next to the construction site rather than in an engineering office elsewhere.

Once completed the war was already on and the BBs stayed in well protected anchorages - probably leaving at night for sea trials and working up beyond the area where fishing boats could see them. The first Allied aircraft to spot them could not get a good picture to estimate their size, but compared to escorting vessels the Allies knew they were bigger than most BBs.

A sub torpedoed Musashi once and doubtless made a report of a very large BB, but did not have a picture so the report may have been considered exaggeration.
I think the first clear pics of the Yamato and Musashi were during the Sibuyan Sea battle on day two of the Leyte Gulf naval battles.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Macclan5


It depends upon your definition of Allied.

The USSR had various and many (according to speculation and KGB released files in recent years) spied in Japan in WW2.

Richard Sorge and Ozaki to name the most famous.

However they both had extensive networks never revealed nor prosecuted ; further the Imperial Government maintained high level diplomatic accord with the USSR through out the war hoping Stalin would mediate as the USA steamroller was occurring. Uncle Joe played coy till the very last even warning the Japanese of Allied raids on Formosa leading up to the the landings on Leyte. The USSR had much intelligence from diplomacy no doubt.

I am unfamiliar with intelligence assets on the western allied side - primarily American or British. Both had high level contacts leading up to the war and so would glean some Military intelligence prior to Pearl Harbor, Hong Kong, and Singapore.

If the IJN truly hid the existence of Yamato and Mushashi from the Allies till 1944 as often stated - this infers that American British intelligence was poor. Hard to hide Battleships that large 100% of the time

The Japanese went to extraordinary lengths to hide the Yamato BB program.
1. Budgetary appropriations in the Diet referred to three Treaty sized 35,000 ton BBs and three 27,000 ton BCs ( the "Chibuchi class that would - in imagined design - have been similar to the US Alaska class CBs built in response to the Japanese appropriation).
2. The construction berths were shielded by a wall and ceiling of camouflage netting
3. Every component shipped in was well crated to disguise what it was
4. Every worker at the dockyard and major component manufacturer (like gun barrels) was sworn to secrecy on penalty of death
5 Every worker was investigated for security risks
6. Design work was done in the shipyard next to the construction site rather than in an engineering office elsewhere.

Once completed the war was already on and the BBs stayed in well protected anchorages - probably leaving at night for sea trials and working up beyond the area where fishing boats could see them. The first Allied aircraft to spot them could not get a good picture to estimate their size, but compared to escorting vessels the Allies knew they were bigger than most BBs.

A sub torpedoed Musashi once and doubtless made a report of a very large BB, but did not have a picture so the report may have been considered exaggeration.
I think the first clear pics of the Yamato and Musashi were during the Sibuyan Sea battle on day two of the Leyte Gulf naval battles.

Also, the 18" guns were referred to as 16" specials in documents.

[GI Jive]

Here is an article describing an OSS plan to insert Korean operatives into Japan using small semi-submersibles. It looks like the war ended before the plan was carried out. The concept was for agents to land, operate for several weeks ashore, then return to the semi-submersible to escape.

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... arines.pdf

[GI Jive]

And another article from the CIA website states that in the lead-up to Operation Olympic: "Allied intelligence services had no effective agents or spy networks in the homeland, nor were there Western sympathizers with access to this kind of information in any detail."

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... html#rtoc2

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: GI Jive

Here is an article describing an OSS plan to insert Korean operatives into Japan using small semi-submersibles. It looks like the war ended before the plan was carried out. The concept was for agents to land, operate for several weeks ashore, then return to the semi-submersible to escape.

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... arines.pdf

What is a semi-submersible? A leaky rowboat made of balsa wood?

[spence]

Drug smugglers have taken to using semi-submersibles to smuggle cocaine. Very small to no radar signature. The USCG has captured quite a few in the last few years.

[rustysi]

Well one thing occurred to give one an idea of the size of these behemoths. When Musashi was launched she caused a tsunami at her location.[X(] Of course no westerners were around to notice, at least none that I know of.

Drug smugglers have taken to using semi-submersibles to smuggle cocaine.

They've graduated to full on subs.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Well one thing occurred to give one an idea of the size of these behemoths. When Musashi was launched she caused a tsunami at her location.[X(] Of course no westerners were around to notice, at least none that I know of.

Drug smugglers have taken to using semi-submersibles to smuggle cocaine.

They've graduated to full on subs.

I'm sure Putin would be happy to sell them his surplus diesel boats!

[MakeeLearn]

Many drugs have enter the US this way... Fort Bragg

LAPES - Low-Altitude Parachute Extraction System