so how goes the testing? Official patch?

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WanderingHead
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so how goes the testing? Official patch?

Post by WanderingHead »

I have not played online yet, since PBEM works out better for me. But I wonder how the testing goes and when the official patch release might be.

While I'm happy that 2b3 responded to the many requests for online play and I understand the delays, I'm personally more interested in seeing the identified bugs fixed. Just curious when that may happen.
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Joel Billings
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RE: so how goes the testing? Official patch?

Post by Joel Billings »

Well there are three parts to the question regarding future WaW work and making the next official patch:

1) TCP/IP status
2) Game data/balance change testing
3) Bug fixes

I haven't spoken with David or Erik about this in a few weeks so I don't yet know there opinion. From our point of view, we were waiting to get feedback on the TCP/IP game to find out how close to having something fairly bug free we were. We were also waiting for feedback on the data/balance changes in the beta patch. We were also waiting for a chance to have Keith work on making bug fixes. I have to say I'm disappointed in the little feedback we're getting on parts 1 and 2. Aside from a few bugs that were found by Jan and those playing him, we've had no feedback on TCP/IP play. The same goes for the data/balance changes. It would seem that few are interested in testing the beta version. This is bad news since one reason we opened up to public beta was the shortage of good beta testers. The few TCP/IP bugs that have been reported are major bugs and need to be fixed before we can make anything official. I feel good about the data changes, but it would be nice to get some feedback before making them all official. As for the bugs, I'd be curious which bugs you feel are critical bugs at this point. I know there are many annoying bugs, most pretty uncommon, but I don't remember seeing anything that is major. I could be wrong about that and would appreciate feedback here on which items you consider very important to fix. The TCP/IP work set us back considerably (at least 2-3 months, probably more, and we're not really done with it yet). This has blown a whole through our production schedule. We have the following things we have to do first to make some money:

1) Get Civil War into Beta Testing (we are close, but we have a list of around 20 items that Keith has to do before we will be ready). This is what he's been working on the past 2 weeks. This could easily take Keith between 2-4 more weeks.

2) Get Battle of Britain and Bombing the Reich compiled and working well on XP computers, and ready for Gary to work on. This is expected to take Keith 1-2 weeks.

When these items are done, we plan on putting Keith onto WaW to fix any TCP/IP bugs and any important WaW bugs. So based on these estimates, you can see it'll likely be January before Keith is able to fix WaW bugs. You then have to account for a period of beta testing (either closed and/or public) before any patch would become official. I'm not sure what Matrix will want to do with this. I'm not sure if we would release another official patch before getting the TCP/IP ready to be released (which is a problem if we don't get enough beta testing feedback on the TCP/IP version). I guess it would be possible to release an official patch with the TCP/IP either deactivated or with the statement in the game that the TCP/IP version is only a beta version (while the rest of the game is considered "official and ready for the public").

So the bottom line answer to the question of when will the next official patch be released with bug fixes is: No earlier than January, and possibly later depending how things go. We very much want to release at least one more beta patch sometime in January with bug fixes and hope this can be made official as soon as possible after a short beta testing period. In the meantime, we feel very good about the PBEM and AI parts of the 1.071 beta and encourage all current players to download and play this beta version. We could use the feedback on the data/balance changes although we're hoping they will require little or no adjustments in the future. Any feedback on the TCP/IP version is also appreciated. If I were playing the game for fun today, I would play the 1.071 beta version.

As noted above, if there is a particular bug that you feel is critical and should be fixed ASAP, please list it here. Thanks.
All understanding comes after the fact.
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WanderingHead
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RE: so how goes the testing? Official patch?

Post by WanderingHead »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Well there are three parts to the question regarding future WaW work and making the next official patch:

1) TCP/IP status
2) Game data/balance change testing
3) Bug fixes

...

As noted above, if there is a particular bug that you feel is critical and should be fixed ASAP, please list it here. Thanks.

Unfortunately, TCP/IP play just doesn't fit into my schedule, so I can't help you there.

For balance, I don't feel that I play enough games to have a good feel for this. I can say that I'm not too enthused about the USA production reduction for war in '42, I'd much rather see the other proposal that the game end 4 years after USA and USSR are in the war, or something like that.

The real issue I still see is that going for Axis decisive victory should still probably mean avoiding USA entry. It seems to me that only in the case of the long grind to Axis marginal victory should the Axis consider early USA entry.

For bugs ... my own personal short list:
* unable to undo commitment of supplies to naval units (when selected supply source)
* any bug described as "stuck" in Jan's list
* partisans not destroying resource centers
* bug in "fuel" cost for 2 movement borders (move for 1 supply if only 1 available)

But really, looking through the bug list I come across a lot of bugs I'd like to see fixed. It's not that they pop up all the time, or even that I have seen most of them, it's just that it is kind of irritating when they do pop up. More than any one or two bugs it is the cumulative effect.

I don't think I see the bugs I reported a couple of months ago in the bug list. One allowed free transport of German paratroops after they landed in the Caucasus (i.e. transport capacity to return home was not used, and transport could subsequently even return to port). That would seem like an important one to fix as well, but may have ben unique (I only saw it that one time).

I do appreciate the attention you continue to show to the game, and I look forward to the future offerings.
WanderingHead
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RE: so how goes the testing? Official patch?

Post by WanderingHead »

I have to add bug BG0139 to my short list, in which Russia runs out of population in the first turn after the invasion, presumably somehow due to the militia formation. It is awfully frustrating to waste production and resources on units that don't actually spring to life.

I'd be happy with either making the inst-militia "free" in terms of population, or fixing the production screen so that it provides the accurate count of available population.
JanSorensen
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RE: so how goes the testing? Official patch?

Post by JanSorensen »

BG0139 has been fixed in code along with quite alot of the other bugs.

As for the other bugs on your list:

* unable to undo commitment of supplies to naval units (when selected supply source)
This isnt fixed yet but I hope to fix it.

* any bug described as "stuck" in Jan's list
These are fixed. Units should not longer get stuck - though this also means the attacker has some extra options in initiating combats, say a HF can chase an aircraft away even if neither can hit each other.

* partisans not destroying resource centers
When I dug into this it turned out that partisans are actually destroying resources already. They are just only detroying the ones in the resource pool rather than the resource center. It was decided to add the ability to damage resource centers one level but not two. It was also decided to make partisans able to damage rails 2 levels rather than just one. The changes are made in code.

* bug in "fuel" cost for 2 movement borders (move for 1 supply if only 1 available)
This bug is fixed in code.


Hopefully a new version, beta or official, with these fixes can be given free within a couple of weeks. Some internal testing and the fixing of a number of bugs still remain though before its given free.
Forwarn45
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RE: so how goes the testing? Official patch?

Post by Forwarn45 »

Great! I'm happy to see a minor patch in the works - especially with the partisan changes/fixes. [8D] Glad to see the continued support - and look forward to more bugs being quashed.
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Joel Billings
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RE: so how goes the testing? Official patch?

Post by Joel Billings »

Jan has been making great progress fixing bugs. Next week we hope to fix any remaining important online bugs and put out a new public beta patch. With the release of the international version, we have some issues regarding localization that we may want to address before releasing the next "official" patch, but this will give us time to get the beta patch tested before we make it official.
All understanding comes after the fact.
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RE: so how goes the testing? Official patch?

Post by WanderingHead »

Wow, sounds great!
ORIGINAL: JanSorensen
* partisans not destroying resource centers
When I dug into this it turned out that partisans are actually destroying resources already. They are just only detroying the ones in the resource pool rather than the resource center. It was decided to add the ability to damage resource centers one level but not two. It was also decided to make partisans able to damage rails 2 levels rather than just one. The changes are made in code.

Yeah, understood. But destroying resource centers is more powerful, and a true motivation to defend them. AV could be snatched away without warning ... Glad to learn of the change.

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
Jan has been making great progress fixing bugs.

Wow, fixing them now too! Jan sounds more and more like a developer.

Thanks folks.

Oh, one last comment on the play balance, I _really_ like the AV changes. Much improved. I said before that I don't feel competent to judge balance per-se, but I think that the Axis AV changes make a lot of sense and avoid some obvious much-discussed problems.
JanSorensen
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RE: so how goes the testing? Official patch?

Post by JanSorensen »

Thanks for the feedback. I completely concur about partisans and resources. Its the same reason that rail can now be damaged 2 levels.

I got some more progress on this one:
* unable to undo commitment of supplies to naval units (when selected supply source)

It turns out that you could not undo the supply if the supply unit had come from a sea-area (transport). I assume this was done to prevent the situation where the supply was used, the trs moved and the supply then undone. I made it so the supply is undone if there is TRS capacity in the sea-area the supply unit came from and not undo if there isnt. I believe thats the most sensible solution. If the fix works in all details remains to be seen :)
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Lebatron
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RE: so how goes the testing? Official patch?

Post by Lebatron »

So they have givin you access to the executable. Cool. Maybe while your poking around in there you could perhaps make 2 small user friendly changes. One of my old requests was that when the report screen pops up at the end of your turn it would show tech improvements first, then units, then supply. In this way scolling down to see your tech gains would be unnecessary. My other request was to see resources trump the train icon. They got it right to show the factory first, but I can't understand why they choose to have the train icon come next. Its not that important to see because there already is track graphics on the map itself. If you could change their priorities around that would be great. I can't see how anyone would object to this as it makes it easier to see where the resources are.

Another wish, and I think Wanderinghead asked for this before, would be to add some extra function to the region info screen F10. It would be great to see a top line just above the picture symbols that give us a total count. Like a sum for total factory output, or total factories in hand. Would that be within your means to add?
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RE: so how goes the testing? Official patch?

Post by JanSorensen »

Your two first requests may be within my reach - the last almost surely isnt.

I will see what I can do but I cannot promise anything.
WanderingHead
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RE: so how goes the testing? Official patch?

Post by WanderingHead »

ORIGINAL: Lebatron
Another wish, and I think Wanderinghead asked for this before, would be to add some extra function to the region info screen F10. It would be great to see a top line just above the picture symbols that give us a total count. Like a sum for total factory output, or total factories in hand. Would that be within your means to add?

Oh yes yes. I would dearly love to be able to see a summation of current factory output somewhere, and I figured a summation row to that table would do the trick. Then you'd also be able to see resources and population in one place, and see it during the movement phase.

The information is available now, you just have to count for yourself. I am constantly doing this so I can figure whether I should repair a factory or a resource center next, which is ironic. It's exactly what computers are best at.
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RE: so how goes the testing? Official patch?

Post by JanSorensen »

Tech should now show up ahead of production and resources take priority over rails on the map - assuming testing does not show any problems.

As for having a production summary - I can understand what you mean though I never did feel a pressing need myself. Personally, I note at the end of production if I had resources to spare or not and if I was chewing into the surplus or not and base my decisions on that.

I am considering though if it might not be easier and more informative to have the numbers in the middle of the production screen show during the movement phase too rather than leave that space blank (see screen shot). I seem to recall that the argument against is that it wont be accurate but I would like some input concerning that as it might be something I could do. Then again it might not so dont take this as any sort of promise :)


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Lebatron
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RE: so how goes the testing? Official patch?

Post by Lebatron »

I do recall the old discussion of the production screen being blank during movement. Many newbies hated that. I think Joel posted his reason for it. If I recall, it was left blank because 2by3 thought players might find it confusing when the reported numbers changed during the phase. Personally I wouldn't see that as bad. Its better than no info.

Reguarding the region info screen, I think it would be good if 2by3 focused some attention here. It doesn't have to be fancy. They don't have to redo the graphics on that page. The thin strip of white above the table is enough room to squeeze a small font into. Even though you may not find it all that useful, I would and many others. This would be a great addition. Similar in usefulness to showing us the isolated resource centers that a previous patch provided.

In order to maximize production you have to go through the tedious process of counting things up yourself. I don't write down the previous turns shortfall and things like that. Its to much work. So usually I just shrug it off when my estimates are off. Its not critical most of the time. But when your playing a rated tournament your going to want to use pen and paper to figure this stuff out, since the game fails to provide you that convenience.

Thanks for taking the time to address my other 2 requests. Now if only the combat summary screen would show us where the bonuses and penalties are coming from[:D]
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RE: so how goes the testing? Official patch?

Post by JanSorensen »

ORIGINAL: Lebatron
Thanks for taking the time to address my other 2 requests. Now if only the combat summary screen would show us where the bonuses and penalties are coming from[:D]

You are welcome. The combat screen showing more info about bonuses is actually also being worked on - though not by me. If that makes it into the coming patch or not I do not know.
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RE: so how goes the testing? Official patch?

Post by Lebatron »

That will make everyone happy[:)]
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RE: so how goes the testing? Official patch?

Post by WanderingHead »

ORIGINAL: JanSorensen
I am considering though if it might not be easier and more informative to have the numbers in the middle of the production screen show during the movement phase too rather than leave that space blank (see screen shot). I seem to recall that the argument against is that it wont be accurate but I would like some input concerning that as it might be something I could do. Then again it might not so dont take this as any sort of promise :)

My recollection is the same as Lebatron's and yours, that Joel said it wasn't included because it may change between movement and production phase. I think that partisans, free trade, and movement of transports covers all of the reasons it may change. Did I miss anything?

I strongly support making this change to show all the info even in movement phase. The fact that things change is not a valid argument for not giving the best current information available. I think the change would be a big positive.
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RE: so how goes the testing? Official patch?

Post by SeaMonkey »

I also advance the idea of showing the production summary values during the movement phase, even if somewhat inaccurate.

I'll just consider it faulty intelligence......yes I know that never really happens, its always a consequence of human lying.[8|]
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