This might actually be a good game, but it has a HORRIBLE interface. I ordered it from gogamer.com, how do I return it for something which is actually playable instead of painful?
Thanks!
How do I get my money back?
Moderators: Joel Billings, JanSorensen
RE: How do I get my money back?
ORIGINAL: YetAnothRegistration
This might actually be a good game, but it has a HORRIBLE interface. I ordered it from gogamer.com, how do I return it for something which is actually playable instead of painful?
Thanks!
I don't have the answer to your question, but I have a question. What parts of the interface do you not like? I stopped playing this game for other reasons but the interface is not one of them. [;)]
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YetAnothRegistration
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:08 am
RE: How do I get my money back?
What it boils down to is that it seems like an incredible micromanagement learning curve, and the game typically gives little if any information let alone hints in a digestible format.
I've blocked out most of the memories, but these things still haunt me when I think about Gary Grigsby's WAW:
1. In the battle screen, there's no indication of which units have shot or who can shoot again. Also the damaged vs killed vs ??? seems very messed up - it seems like none of the visual indicators are consistent, and I don't know if the billowing smoke, the red crosses, or other symbols are different across unit types or battles or what.
1.1. Also, not all units get to shoot during a battle - don't you think that would be important for a commander to know?
2. On the world map, I can declare an attack is going to take place, but then the UI thinks every time I roll the mouse over it, I want to fight it. Huh? If I want an action to happen, why wouldn't I click it?
3. I can move units forward, but sometimes I don't get the "undo movement" option. Usually at the important times.
4. Why aren't there visual indicators of, say, all possible movement spots when I have a unit selected? Instead of me having to move the cursor all over the map to get any indication?
4.1. Or how about possible return trips for aircraft and ships? Actually, should I prefer keeping my German ships in a harbor at the start when I'm outnumbered 5-to-1 by Allied ships roaming the seas?
4.2. The whole transports needed to move troops messes me up too - if the ship has movement points, why can't it move multiple troops in one turn? Or again, show how far they can move.
4.3. Have indicators on the units on the map so I don't have to click on each one in turn to get any information.
4.4. Actually selecting a unit when it is part of a group is awkward and is not intuitive for me.
5. Fighters can move like 2 spaces? So I need aircraft carriers in the Mediterranean to attack any islands - which automatically damage my ships?
6. The whole industrial interface(s) are flubbed to - too little information over too many screens, and not enough data or interface hints on any single one of them to know what is even possible let alone desireable.
6.1. Why doesn't the industrial/factory screen show all factories, or all locations where factories could be but need work or repair? Or what is keeping me from using the factories.
6.2. "Repair Points"? Well, okay, but how do they get refreshed (what resources are available or blocked), how often, and what can they be used for - units? Factories only? Railroads?
7. And unit abilities - why can't a couple German submarines sink an Allied ship and transport at the start of the game?
8. I also don't start the game with any indication of what kind of game it is - are units supposed to be disposable or protected for the length of the game?
8.1. Units that get shot in a battle (eg. have hit points go down but don't die) - can they be brought back up to strength? How?
They could have added a lot more functionality to the game to make it reasonable for non-grognards... which I guess I'm admitting I am now.
I've blocked out most of the memories, but these things still haunt me when I think about Gary Grigsby's WAW:
1. In the battle screen, there's no indication of which units have shot or who can shoot again. Also the damaged vs killed vs ??? seems very messed up - it seems like none of the visual indicators are consistent, and I don't know if the billowing smoke, the red crosses, or other symbols are different across unit types or battles or what.
1.1. Also, not all units get to shoot during a battle - don't you think that would be important for a commander to know?
2. On the world map, I can declare an attack is going to take place, but then the UI thinks every time I roll the mouse over it, I want to fight it. Huh? If I want an action to happen, why wouldn't I click it?
3. I can move units forward, but sometimes I don't get the "undo movement" option. Usually at the important times.
4. Why aren't there visual indicators of, say, all possible movement spots when I have a unit selected? Instead of me having to move the cursor all over the map to get any indication?
4.1. Or how about possible return trips for aircraft and ships? Actually, should I prefer keeping my German ships in a harbor at the start when I'm outnumbered 5-to-1 by Allied ships roaming the seas?
4.2. The whole transports needed to move troops messes me up too - if the ship has movement points, why can't it move multiple troops in one turn? Or again, show how far they can move.
4.3. Have indicators on the units on the map so I don't have to click on each one in turn to get any information.
4.4. Actually selecting a unit when it is part of a group is awkward and is not intuitive for me.
5. Fighters can move like 2 spaces? So I need aircraft carriers in the Mediterranean to attack any islands - which automatically damage my ships?
6. The whole industrial interface(s) are flubbed to - too little information over too many screens, and not enough data or interface hints on any single one of them to know what is even possible let alone desireable.
6.1. Why doesn't the industrial/factory screen show all factories, or all locations where factories could be but need work or repair? Or what is keeping me from using the factories.
6.2. "Repair Points"? Well, okay, but how do they get refreshed (what resources are available or blocked), how often, and what can they be used for - units? Factories only? Railroads?
7. And unit abilities - why can't a couple German submarines sink an Allied ship and transport at the start of the game?
8. I also don't start the game with any indication of what kind of game it is - are units supposed to be disposable or protected for the length of the game?
8.1. Units that get shot in a battle (eg. have hit points go down but don't die) - can they be brought back up to strength? How?
They could have added a lot more functionality to the game to make it reasonable for non-grognards... which I guess I'm admitting I am now.
RE: How do I get my money back?
I'm sorry I did not answer sooner but I must have let this slip by. With the new patch (1.011 I believe) I tried to play this again, but the lack of tooltips and like you said:
I agree 110% with what you said above. The manual is beautiful and I would print it for referenece, but I am not going to try to play this game anymore. I'm done. I bought both versions and I am sorry I ever did. Too many screens of information WITHOUT any help. I'm going back to WitP, at least I can figure that out!
YetAnothRegistration said:
What it boils down to is that it seems like an incredible micromanagement learning curve, and the game typically gives little if any information let alone hints in a digestible format.
I agree 110% with what you said above. The manual is beautiful and I would print it for referenece, but I am not going to try to play this game anymore. I'm done. I bought both versions and I am sorry I ever did. Too many screens of information WITHOUT any help. I'm going back to WitP, at least I can figure that out!
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Joel Billings
- Posts: 33065
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Santa Rosa, CA
- Contact:
RE: How do I get my money back?
Did you try any of the in-game tutorials?
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
-- Soren Kierkegaard
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Joel Billings
- Posts: 33065
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Santa Rosa, CA
- Contact:
RE: How do I get my money back?
Wow, you found WitP easier than WaW? And some people thought that Waw was just a simple game like Axis & Allies. I'm sorry they're weren't enough tool tips for you. Our next game will come with both in-game tutorials and video tutorials to help people learn the game. More tooltips are always a good thing but everything takes time. The biggest problem people have had with WaW/AWD from day one was the use of transports for moving units (especially to amphibious invasions), because it's nothing like A&A or other games where you load up the transports and then move them. In WaW, transports form convoy lanes that units move over. It works better to simulate the war, (and real time/distance considerations), but we realize it's hard to understand. That's why we added a tutorial specifically for it in AWD. Anybody that learned how to play WitP can learn how to play WaW, but I don't think the reverse is true. And for games this complex, you do have to learn how to play. We hoped WaW would have a smaller learning curve than WitP, and we think it does, but it's obviously not as easy or intuitive as Panzer General or Steel Panthers were. If you haven't tried the tutorials, I'd suggest you give it a try. The game is very deep and hard to play well, but if you get through the tutorials you should be able to play at a basic level (at least that's what we thought).
By the way, it costs nothing to move onto an island area from the surrounding sea zone, so you can attack it with short range fighters. Of course, you need to research your early war short range fighters so they can gain range later in the war (as happened during the real war). Units are pretty disposable, and units hit once (except for militia) go back to the production track with half the normal turns to build and half the popuation of the unit added to your population. So you can rebuild them if wish. In AWD, we added the functionality to darken areas the current unit can't move to. That was a stupid oversight on our part in WaW. You can't get the undo functionality when your units have spotted a previously hidden unit (are you using fog of war? if so, turn it off until you get to know the game). You also can't undo after a combat. As for using factories, you need to have a specific region showing (in the top text) on the production screen to build something. Easiest way is to go to the screen and then use the little arrows to scroll through each area and put things into production. Again, there is a tutorial that covers this.
By the way, it costs nothing to move onto an island area from the surrounding sea zone, so you can attack it with short range fighters. Of course, you need to research your early war short range fighters so they can gain range later in the war (as happened during the real war). Units are pretty disposable, and units hit once (except for militia) go back to the production track with half the normal turns to build and half the popuation of the unit added to your population. So you can rebuild them if wish. In AWD, we added the functionality to darken areas the current unit can't move to. That was a stupid oversight on our part in WaW. You can't get the undo functionality when your units have spotted a previously hidden unit (are you using fog of war? if so, turn it off until you get to know the game). You also can't undo after a combat. As for using factories, you need to have a specific region showing (in the top text) on the production screen to build something. Easiest way is to go to the screen and then use the little arrows to scroll through each area and put things into production. Again, there is a tutorial that covers this.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
-- Soren Kierkegaard
RE: How do I get my money back?
I started playing World At War this past March and I also found the game had a fairly steep learning curve. However after I applied myself to learning the game, I found the game greatly rewarded my efforts. It provides an excellent degree of strategy, giving the players a wide variety of options and flexibility, while retaining a relatively high degree of historical accuracy. It is a great game so long as you don't mind putting in the effort needed to learn the game.
When learning this game, I found it helped to focus on one question at a time and to find an answer to that question (either in the manual, this online forum, or through doing a quick test in the game) prior to trying to figure out my other questions. Otherwise, the mechanics of the game can seem overwhelming. I appreciate the detailed comments regarding what you didn't like about the game; I have provided some responses below to hopefully answer some of your questions:
1) The red crosses represent the number of actual hits a unit has taken. With the exception of militia units which are destroyed with a single hit, units are damaged with one hit (one red cross) and are destroyed with two hits (two red crosses). Without looking into it further, I believe mechanical units produce smoke when hit (e.g., planes and ships) whereas human units do not (e.g., infantry and militia). Information not provided on the battle screen should be available elsewhere. For instance, click on the units on the main map after the battle is concluded and every unit that has fired will have a crosshair with a green checkmark in it to reflect that the unit has fired that turn. If a unit's icon does not show a crosshair with a green checkmark in it, it means the unit has not fired yet and can still attack so long as it has tactical movement remaining. This most often comes into play with naval units.
2) That is a nuisance.
3) That is a nuisance as well. You can usually get around this if it is due to a partisan uprising (you will see a big, glowing yellow man). One workaround is to temporarily move a unit in from a nearby country thus temporarily quelling the uprising and thereby allowing you to move your units back and then moving the temporary unit back to its original location. Another way to work around this is to click the "stack move" icon, which should allow you to reverse the move as a single click. There are a number of other situations in which you cannot reverse your actions prior to actual combat (such as when you move units into an enemy port with over 50% chance to take the region and the ships automatically abandon port); I agree that you should be able to reverse your actions if you haven't initiated combat yet and you do not have the fog of war feature enabled.
4) n/c
4.1) You are provided with a visual display of the number of movement spaces remaining, so this should let you know if your naval unit will be able to return to its port. Aircraft will automatically return from combat to the airfield from which they last took off. I generally leave my German ships off the coast of Denmark with aircraft covering them. That allows me to protect my transport in the same location that ferries supplies up to Norway. Leaving these fleets here helps prevent the Western Allies from getting into the Baltic Sea. Also from there, I will use extended movement to have them destroy Allied transports off the coasts of Norway and Finland in order to hamper the land lease from the US to Russia.
4.2) You need to move the transports into the locations where you want them prior to transporting any supplies or units. This is somewhat counter-intuitive since you tend to think of a transport as carrying its load from start to finish. Instead, think of it as building a long bridge, in which the transports relay their loads from one transport to another.
4.3) n/c
4.4) n/c
5) This gets into the strategy of the game, which is really where the game truly shines. If you got to know the game better, you would grow to appreciate this as a positive attribute of the game. You shouldn't be able to just rush into the Mediterranean and invade Italy with aircraft carriers unless the carrier's planes have been really teched up. In the game and in real life, the German fighters should and will crush your carrier aircraft groups. You need fighters present to combat the German fighters. To do this, you need a nearby airbase. This usually requires you to establish footholds (such as in Gibraltar and then the islands), transport planes to those footholds, and then combat Germany's fighters with your own.
6) Industry/production is not easy to understand in this game. It takes time and effort and is usually best learned in individual steps, learning one aspect at a time. It greatly helps to let the computer do this until you feel comfortable with the other aspects of the game.
6.1) I am not sure to which industry/factory screen you are referring as I am writing this from memory. There is one menu selection that toggles the map to show all of the infrastructure, but that already is a bit cluttered, showing resource centers, population, factories and railroad. The repair screen lists all of the factories and everything needing repair.
6.2) Repair points = supply units; they are the same exact thing and they can be used for either purpose, supply or repair. Repair/supply points are your basic form of currency in this game. It might have been clearer if a single term was used.
7) German subs can be lethal, but you have to allocate research to them in order to make them that way. And they aren't as strong individually, but can be devastating as a group.
8) Units generally are disposable. You want to be extremely protective of some valuable units like aircraft carriers. Pay attention to how it takes to build a unit, since that is the cost of replacement. The game does an excellent job in making certain regions be extremely important strategically, such that certain countries can have much more strategic value than your units. For instance, it often is worth losing a ton of units in order to take Gibraltar since it really holds the key to the Mediterranean.
8.1) I am not sure what you mean by units being brought back up to strength. Units have the following outcomes from being attacked: they are destroyed, they are damaged, they are fired upon but undamaged, or they were not fired upon at all. If destroyed, they are completely removed from the game. If damaged, they are removed from the map and put back into production. If fired upon but undamaged, they retain the "shot at" status for the remainder of that turn, which lowers their defensive ability, but that status goes away at the end of the turn.
Hope that was more helpful than just long. [>:]
Bill
When learning this game, I found it helped to focus on one question at a time and to find an answer to that question (either in the manual, this online forum, or through doing a quick test in the game) prior to trying to figure out my other questions. Otherwise, the mechanics of the game can seem overwhelming. I appreciate the detailed comments regarding what you didn't like about the game; I have provided some responses below to hopefully answer some of your questions:
1) The red crosses represent the number of actual hits a unit has taken. With the exception of militia units which are destroyed with a single hit, units are damaged with one hit (one red cross) and are destroyed with two hits (two red crosses). Without looking into it further, I believe mechanical units produce smoke when hit (e.g., planes and ships) whereas human units do not (e.g., infantry and militia). Information not provided on the battle screen should be available elsewhere. For instance, click on the units on the main map after the battle is concluded and every unit that has fired will have a crosshair with a green checkmark in it to reflect that the unit has fired that turn. If a unit's icon does not show a crosshair with a green checkmark in it, it means the unit has not fired yet and can still attack so long as it has tactical movement remaining. This most often comes into play with naval units.
2) That is a nuisance.
3) That is a nuisance as well. You can usually get around this if it is due to a partisan uprising (you will see a big, glowing yellow man). One workaround is to temporarily move a unit in from a nearby country thus temporarily quelling the uprising and thereby allowing you to move your units back and then moving the temporary unit back to its original location. Another way to work around this is to click the "stack move" icon, which should allow you to reverse the move as a single click. There are a number of other situations in which you cannot reverse your actions prior to actual combat (such as when you move units into an enemy port with over 50% chance to take the region and the ships automatically abandon port); I agree that you should be able to reverse your actions if you haven't initiated combat yet and you do not have the fog of war feature enabled.
4) n/c
4.1) You are provided with a visual display of the number of movement spaces remaining, so this should let you know if your naval unit will be able to return to its port. Aircraft will automatically return from combat to the airfield from which they last took off. I generally leave my German ships off the coast of Denmark with aircraft covering them. That allows me to protect my transport in the same location that ferries supplies up to Norway. Leaving these fleets here helps prevent the Western Allies from getting into the Baltic Sea. Also from there, I will use extended movement to have them destroy Allied transports off the coasts of Norway and Finland in order to hamper the land lease from the US to Russia.
4.2) You need to move the transports into the locations where you want them prior to transporting any supplies or units. This is somewhat counter-intuitive since you tend to think of a transport as carrying its load from start to finish. Instead, think of it as building a long bridge, in which the transports relay their loads from one transport to another.
4.3) n/c
4.4) n/c
5) This gets into the strategy of the game, which is really where the game truly shines. If you got to know the game better, you would grow to appreciate this as a positive attribute of the game. You shouldn't be able to just rush into the Mediterranean and invade Italy with aircraft carriers unless the carrier's planes have been really teched up. In the game and in real life, the German fighters should and will crush your carrier aircraft groups. You need fighters present to combat the German fighters. To do this, you need a nearby airbase. This usually requires you to establish footholds (such as in Gibraltar and then the islands), transport planes to those footholds, and then combat Germany's fighters with your own.
6) Industry/production is not easy to understand in this game. It takes time and effort and is usually best learned in individual steps, learning one aspect at a time. It greatly helps to let the computer do this until you feel comfortable with the other aspects of the game.
6.1) I am not sure to which industry/factory screen you are referring as I am writing this from memory. There is one menu selection that toggles the map to show all of the infrastructure, but that already is a bit cluttered, showing resource centers, population, factories and railroad. The repair screen lists all of the factories and everything needing repair.
6.2) Repair points = supply units; they are the same exact thing and they can be used for either purpose, supply or repair. Repair/supply points are your basic form of currency in this game. It might have been clearer if a single term was used.
7) German subs can be lethal, but you have to allocate research to them in order to make them that way. And they aren't as strong individually, but can be devastating as a group.
8) Units generally are disposable. You want to be extremely protective of some valuable units like aircraft carriers. Pay attention to how it takes to build a unit, since that is the cost of replacement. The game does an excellent job in making certain regions be extremely important strategically, such that certain countries can have much more strategic value than your units. For instance, it often is worth losing a ton of units in order to take Gibraltar since it really holds the key to the Mediterranean.
8.1) I am not sure what you mean by units being brought back up to strength. Units have the following outcomes from being attacked: they are destroyed, they are damaged, they are fired upon but undamaged, or they were not fired upon at all. If destroyed, they are completely removed from the game. If damaged, they are removed from the map and put back into production. If fired upon but undamaged, they retain the "shot at" status for the remainder of that turn, which lowers their defensive ability, but that status goes away at the end of the turn.
Hope that was more helpful than just long. [>:]
Bill
RE: How do I get my money back?
Vilhjalmr;
Excellent reply and help! After posting my last post above, I felt like a quitter AND complainer so I went back to it last weekend and have been conquering my questions one by one. I printed out the parts of the manual pertaining to my questions and studied them and played them out. I have to say, I had fun playing! Lots of fun! The historical value and time frames of this game are really great.
What I have always liked about this game are the menus speed and smoothness, and the animations are so well thought out. The entire interface works extremely well. It's fast and smooth and the mouse clicks give it an extra plus. It's hard to describe, so I guess you just have to use the menus to appreciate them.
Thanks for the push! I needed it. [&o] I'm giving this game my all now.
Excellent reply and help! After posting my last post above, I felt like a quitter AND complainer so I went back to it last weekend and have been conquering my questions one by one. I printed out the parts of the manual pertaining to my questions and studied them and played them out. I have to say, I had fun playing! Lots of fun! The historical value and time frames of this game are really great.
What I have always liked about this game are the menus speed and smoothness, and the animations are so well thought out. The entire interface works extremely well. It's fast and smooth and the mouse clicks give it an extra plus. It's hard to describe, so I guess you just have to use the menus to appreciate them.
Thanks for the push! I needed it. [&o] I'm giving this game my all now.
-
Joel Billings
- Posts: 33065
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Santa Rosa, CA
- Contact:
RE: thanks for the detailed response
Thanks to Vilhjalmr for the detailed response, and I'm glad that LarryP stuck with it and found the fun in WaW. Since AWD is the more active forum, when you have questions, I suggest you post them over there as most AWD players will be able to answer WaW questions as well.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
-- Soren Kierkegaard
RE: thanks for the detailed response
ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
Thanks to Vilhjalmr for the detailed response, and I'm glad that LarryP stuck with it and found the fun in WaW. Since AWD is the more active forum, when you have questions, I suggest you post them over there as most AWD players will be able to answer WaW questions as well.
Joel;
I meant to thank you too but I was in a hurry when I replied to Vilhjalmr. So thank you. I don't know why I find WitP easier than AWD. WitP used to be harder but as I spent time with it, over and over, it got easier. That's why I went back to AWD. I figured the same would work with it and it has. I am really enjoying AWD.
So again Joel, thank you for your help and patience. You did not come down on us for being difficult but you gave us a friendly nudge and it helped me continue. [&o] [:)]