The BAOR

[CapnDarwin]

The game is really a very different animal from FPG. A lot more under the hood in this new game engine. More data elements involved. More environmental factors taken into account. Couple that with high modability and a number of planned expansions and I think we will have a winner. [8D]

[Richie61]

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

The game is really a very different animal from FPG. A lot more under the hood in this new game engine. More data elements involved. More environmental factors taken into account. Couple that with high modability and a number of planned expansions and I think we will have a winner. [8D]

I am dying to buy this puppy now

[CapnDarwin]

Testing the game with more tweaks and adjustments. Both forces ran into each other at close range and the fireworks started. Soviet Mi-24s are tearing up Challengers at close range. Really need those air defense chaps to step it up.

[Gunnulf]

Looks good, can't wait. Tactical map marking for British regiments was always difficult to get right when worked on the map table at Brigade HQ (for my sins..). Its always a shame to lose some of the flavour of the full name but some are obviously quite lengthy so a standard abbrev was used to avoid confusion, and cluttering the map. If you need any help with the authentically used map abbrev then I should be able to help on that front.
eg.
1st btln Green Howards = 1 GH. However the Green Howards were in fact a 'Light Role' btln part of 24 Airmobile brigade, not Warrior mounted. Sorry to 'rain on your parade' on that historical point

Royal Scots Dragoon Guards = SCOTS DG (not 1st btln, they were just 'The' I think..)

Not sure there ever was a Queens Royal Dragoons that I am aware of (but might be mistaken)? Do you mean Queens Dragoon Guards? (1 QDG) But that was Armoured Recce i.e Scimitar/Sabre not Challenger...

Others that might be useful from the 1989 ORBAT. Units generally rotated every 7 years but should be a useful reference for mid/late 80s:

1 UK ARM DIV

7 UK ARM BDE:
SCOTS DG (Challenger) = Royal Scots Dragoon Guards
2 RTR (Challenger) = 2 Royal Tank Regiment
1 STAFFORDS (Warrior) = 1 Staffordshires

12 UK ARM BDE:
4 RTR (Chieftain) = 4 Royal Tank Regiment
1 R IRISH (Fv432) = 1 Royal Irish Rangers
1 RGJ (Fv432) = 1 Royal Green Jackets

22 ARM BDE:
QOH (Chieftain) = Queens own Hussars
1 RTR (Fv432) = 1 Royal Tank Regiment
1 SG (Fv432) = 1 Scots Guards
2 R ANGLIAN (Fv432) = 2 Royal Anglian

4 Regt RA (M109A2) = 4 Field Regiment Royal Artillery (29/88/97 Field Batteries)
40 Regt RA (M109A2) = (38/129/137 Field Batteries + 10 Battery Javelin Air def)
1 RHA (Abbott) = 1 Royal Horse Artillery (A/B/E Batteries)
21 RE = 21 Field Regiment Royal Engineers
1 AAC (Gazelle/Lynx) = 1 Regiment Army Air Corps (651/652/661 Sqdn)

3 UK ARM DIV

4 ARM BDE:
14/20 KH (Challenger) = 14th/20th King Hussars
15/19 KH (Challenger) = 15th/19th Kings Hussars
17/21 L (Chieftain) = 17th/21st Lancers
1 GREN GDS (Warrior) = 1 Grenadier Guards

6 ARM BDE:
3 RTR (Challenger) = 3 Royal Tank Regiment
3 RRF (Warrior) = 3 Royal Regiment of Fusiliers
1 GORDONS (Warrior) = 1 Gordon Highlanders
2 LI (Light Role UK based) = 2 Light Infantry

33 ARM BDE:
5 INNIS DG (Cheiftain) = 5 Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards. Not 100% sure on this one as no longer exist but think correct...
1 QLR (Fv432) = 1 Queens Lancashire Regiment
1 RS (Warrior) = 1 Royal Scots (could be 1 R SCOTS too for better flavour)
1 HIGHLAND (Fv432) = Queens Own Highlanders

2 Regt RA (M109A2) = (L/N/O Batteries + 46 Battery Javelin Air Defence)
19 Regt RA (Abbott) = (13/25/28 Field Batteries + 111 Battery Javelin)
49 Regt RA (M109A2)
26 RE
3 AAC (Gazelle/Lynx) (653/662/663 Sqdn)
9/12 L (UK based Scimitar) 9th/12th Lancers

4 UK ARM DIV

11 ARM BDE:
1 A and SH (Saxon) = 1 Argyl & Sutherland Highlanders.
2 QUEENS (Fv432) = 2 Queens Regiment

20 ARM BDE:
RHG/D (Challenger) = Blues & Royals.
4/7 RDG (Challenger) = 4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards
2 R IRISH (Fv432) = 2 Royal Irish Rangers

19 INF BDE: (UK based)
1 KORBR (Saxon) = 1 Kings own Royal Border Regiment
1 R ANGLIAN (Saxon) = 1 Royal Anglian
3 R ANGLIAN (saxon = 3 Royal Anglian
45 Regt RA (FH-70 155mm)

3 RA (M109A2)
47 RA (Abbott) + 21 Battery Javelin
35 RE
4 AAC (Gazelle/Lynx) = (654/659/669 Sqdn)

1 ART BDE:
5 Regt RA (M107) = (K/P Heavy Batteries + Q Locating battery)
32 Regt RA (M107) = (18/74 Heavy Batteries + 57 Locating Battery)
39 Regt RA (M110/M109A1) = (132/176/56 Heavy Batteries)
50 Regt RA (Lance) = (15/19/36 Missile Batteries)
12 Regt RA (Rapier) = (T/9/12/58 Air Defense Batteries)
22 Regt RA (Rapier) = (11/53/35/42 Air Defense Batteries)

16/5 L (Scimitar) = 16th/5th Lancers (Arm Recce assigned to 1 Arm Div)
1 QDG (Scimitar) = 1 Queens Dragoon Guards (Arm Recce assigned to 4 Arm Div)

23 RE
25 RE
32 RE

UK BERLIN INF BDE:
1 BW = 1 Black Watch
1 KINGS = 1 Kings Regiment
1 RBW = 1 Royal Berkshire & Wiltshire
1 LI = 1 Light Infantry
C Sqdn 14/20 H (Chieftain)

There were various other units slated to re-inforce the theatre like 2 INF DIV, 5 Airborne BDE (1 PARA, 2 PARA, 1 RGR) , 24 Airbobile BDE (1 GH, 1PYO) etc... I can source that too if useful. I have the entire NATO ORBAT from that time which I can supply. Its pretty unclassified now

Final note for scenario accuracy. For Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers & Army Air Corps regiments break down into batteries & squadrons some with letters, some with numbers (just to keep it simple..!). But the sub-units are not A/B/C like Armoured Regiments. I.e. 4 RA had 28, 88 & 97 Field Battery RA. 1 AAC had 651, 652 & 661 Squadrons. These are possible to source too.

Simple really...

[Hexagon]

Nice, last pics are great BUT maybe now when i see the full screen with info and menus i feel like the 2D terrain art is not in the right place, the "modern" look around crash with the map terrain... really is the only point in game i dislike specially after see the art in other recent games.

Lets see what can do BAOR, if they are lions or mouses [:D]

[CapnDarwin]

There are other posts dealing with the map art and why it is what it is. The idea was to have the map display the essential information with out a lot of effort. Elevations can be seen. Fields, woods, and cities all stand out. Major roads and rivers are shown in a simple but understandable manner. Having editing capability and using the same 3rd party tools we use folks will be able to make their own maps and can go crazy on the details. When we are making 30+ maps having to hand edit all of the per hex values for over 1200 hexes get time consuming. The map art was tweaked (a lot) to use an automapping routing in the game. That saved hours of work time per map.

Hope that explains it a bit better.

[wodin]

I see the Brits are in platoon scale units and most of the Russians are in Coy..can you breakdown the coy units to platoon and vice versa?

Interesting to see how LOS comes into play..wargames in Germany by NATO found the average engagement range due to terrain was between 1500m and 2000m. As the tanks have ranges of 6000m it will be interesting to see how it works out and if engagement ranges are within realistic levels.

[Mad Russian]

The US Army did a study after WWII and found that the average engagement range during the campaign in NWE was actually around 400 meters. Since 1945 Europe has become more congested not less. That would make me believe the engagement ranges from WWII would come down not go up.

The one thing that could change that is thermal sights.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Gunnulf

Looks good, can't wait. Tactical map marking for British regiments was always difficult to get right when worked on the map table at Brigade HQ (for my sins..). Its always a shame to lose some of the flavour of the full name but some are obviously quite lengthy so a standard abbrev was used to avoid confusion, and cluttering the map. If you need any help with the authentically used map abbrev then I should be able to help on that front.
eg.
1st btln Green Howards = 1 GH. However the Green Howards were in fact a 'Light Role' btln part of 24 Airmobile brigade, not Warrior mounted. Sorry to 'rain on your parade' on that historical point

Royal Scots Dragoon Guards = SCOTS DG (not 1st btln, they were just 'The' I think..)

Not sure there ever was a Queens Royal Dragoons that I am aware of (but might be mistaken)? Do you mean Queens Dragoon Guards? (1 QDG) But that was Armoured Recce i.e Scimitar/Sabre not Challenger...

Below you will see the information listing I have for the British 1st Armored Division. What you are seeing on the map is the 12th Armoured Brigade. The ORBATS we use have been extensively researched.

Not saying they are perfect but been checked and cross checked for accuracy. The British Army units are the hardest in the world to get right.


We've spent a lot of time trying to both the units and the equipment correct for 1989 specifically. Just having the units doesn't help that much we needed the equipment they were armed with as well to make scenarios as accurate as possible. To create the scenario editor data base for basic units as well.

Any additional information is always welcome.

2. 1st British Corps GHQ - Bielefeld, FRG: assigned to BAOR

a. 1st Armoured Division - Verden, FRG:

1) 7th Armoured Brigade - Soltau, FRG: 4 Sultan, 4 Spartan, and 4 Ferret
a) 2nd Royal Tank Regiment: 56 Challenger, 4 Sultan, 8 Scorpion, 10 FV432, 8 Ferret
b) 2nd Bn, The Coldstream Guards: 45 Warrior, 4 Sultan, 8 Scimitar, 26 FV432, 7 Ferret, 8 81mm Mtr, 24 Milan
c) 1st Bn, The Staffordshire Regt: 45 Warrior, 4 Sultan, 8 Scimitar, 26 FV432, 7 Ferret, 8 81mm Mtr, 24 Milan

2) 12th Armoured Brigade - Osnabruck, FRG: 4 Sultan, 4 Spartan, and 4 Ferret
a) The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards: 56 Challenger, 4 Sultan, 8 Scorpion, 10 FV432, 8 Ferret
b) 1st The Queens Royal Dragoon Guards: 70 Chieftain, 4 Sultan, 8 Scorpion, 10 FV432, 8 Ferret
c) 1st Bn, The Green Howards: 45 Warrior, 4 Sultan, 8 Scimitar, 26 FV432, 7 Ferret, 8 81mm Mtr, 24 Milan

3) 22nd Armoured Brigade - Hohne, FRG: 4 Sultan, 4 Spartan, and 4 Ferret
a) The 4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards: 56 Challenger, 4 Sultan, 8 Scorpion, 10 FV432, 8 Ferret
b) 2nd Bn, The Grenadier Guards: 45 Warrior, 4 Sultan, 8 Scimitar, 26 FV432, 7 Ferret, 8 81mm Mtr, 24 Milan
c) 1st Bn, The Royal Anglican Regiment: 71 FV432, 4 Sultan, 7 Ferret, 8 Scimitar, 8 81mm Mortar, 24 Milan

4) 1st Division Artillery Group - Hohne, FRG:
a) 4th Royal Artillery Regiment: 24 M109A2
b) 45th Royal Artillery Regiment: 24 M109A2
c) 1st Royal Artillery Regiment: 24 Abbot 105mm SP howitzers

5) 21st Royal Engineer Regiment - Nienburg, FRG: 30 FV432, 12 Spartan, 12 AVRE, and 12 AVLB

6) 1st Air Defense Regiment - Hildesheim, FRG: 6 Rapier, 36 Javelin

7) 1st Royal Army Aviation Regiment - Hildesheim, FRG: 24 Lynx (TOW), 24 Gazelle

Good Hunting.

[Gunnulf]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: Gunnulf

Looks good, can't wait. Tactical map marking for British regiments was always difficult to get right when worked on the map table at Brigade HQ (for my sins..). Its always a shame to lose some of the flavour of the full name but some are obviously quite lengthy so a standard abbrev was used to avoid confusion, and cluttering the map. If you need any help with the authentically used map abbrev then I should be able to help on that front.
eg.
1st btln Green Howards = 1 GH. However the Green Howards were in fact a 'Light Role' btln part of 24 Airmobile brigade, not Warrior mounted. Sorry to 'rain on your parade' on that historical point

Royal Scots Dragoon Guards = SCOTS DG (not 1st btln, they were just 'The' I think..)

Not sure there ever was a Queens Royal Dragoons that I am aware of (but might be mistaken)? Do you mean Queens Dragoon Guards? (1 QDG) But that was Armoured Recce i.e Scimitar/Sabre not Challenger...

Below you will see the information listing I have for the British 1st Armored Division. What you are seeing on the map is the 12th Armoured Brigade. The ORBATS we use have been extensively researched.

Not saying they are perfect but been checked and cross checked for accuracy. The British Army units are the hardest in the world to get right.


We've spent a lot of time trying to both the units and the equipment correct for 1989 specifically. Just having the units doesn't help that much we needed the equipment they were armed with as well to make scenarios as accurate as possible. To create the scenario editor data base for basic units as well.

Any additional information is always welcome.

2. 1st British Corps GHQ - Bielefeld, FRG: assigned to BAOR

a. 1st Armoured Division - Verden, FRG:

1) 7th Armoured Brigade - Soltau, FRG: 4 Sultan, 4 Spartan, and 4 Ferret
a) 2nd Royal Tank Regiment: 56 Challenger, 4 Sultan, 8 Scorpion, 10 FV432, 8 Ferret
b) 2nd Bn, The Coldstream Guards: 45 Warrior, 4 Sultan, 8 Scimitar, 26 FV432, 7 Ferret, 8 81mm Mtr, 24 Milan
c) 1st Bn, The Staffordshire Regt: 45 Warrior, 4 Sultan, 8 Scimitar, 26 FV432, 7 Ferret, 8 81mm Mtr, 24 Milan

2) 12th Armoured Brigade - Osnabruck, FRG: 4 Sultan, 4 Spartan, and 4 Ferret
a) The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards: 56 Challenger, 4 Sultan, 8 Scorpion, 10 FV432, 8 Ferret
b) 1st The Queens Royal Dragoon Guards: 70 Chieftain, 4 Sultan, 8 Scorpion, 10 FV432, 8 Ferret
c) 1st Bn, The Green Howards: 45 Warrior, 4 Sultan, 8 Scimitar, 26 FV432, 7 Ferret, 8 81mm Mtr, 24 Milan

3) 22nd Armoured Brigade - Hohne, FRG: 4 Sultan, 4 Spartan, and 4 Ferret
a) The 4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards: 56 Challenger, 4 Sultan, 8 Scorpion, 10 FV432, 8 Ferret
b) 2nd Bn, The Grenadier Guards: 45 Warrior, 4 Sultan, 8 Scimitar, 26 FV432, 7 Ferret, 8 81mm Mtr, 24 Milan
c) 1st Bn, The Royal Anglican Regiment: 71 FV432, 4 Sultan, 7 Ferret, 8 Scimitar, 8 81mm Mortar, 24 Milan

4) 1st Division Artillery Group - Hohne, FRG:
a) 4th Royal Artillery Regiment: 24 M109A2
b) 45th Royal Artillery Regiment: 24 M109A2
c) 1st Royal Artillery Regiment: 24 Abbot 105mm SP howitzers

5) 21st Royal Engineer Regiment - Nienburg, FRG: 30 FV432, 12 Spartan, 12 AVRE, and 12 AVLB

6) 1st Air Defense Regiment - Hildesheim, FRG: 6 Rapier, 36 Javelin

7) 1st Royal Army Aviation Regiment - Hildesheim, FRG: 24 Lynx (TOW), 24 Gazelle

Good Hunting.

Few initial thoughts, but will need to double check the rest:

100% sure it was 2 R ANGLIAN (not 1 R ANGLICAN. Thats my first regiment. 2 btln was in Germany, 1st Btln UK based but in Northern Ireland in 89 i think).
I have checked and also 100% sure that 1 Green Howards were 24 Airmobile Bde in the UK in 1989. Checked from the biography of the commanding officer.
It was 100% 1 GREN GDS (not 2 GREN GDS). They deployed to Gulf war I.
1 Queens Dragoon Guards were an armoured recce regiment with Scorpion/Scimitar not Chieftain.

On the other units it could be a timing issue between sources. Likesay btln units rotated every few years, bdes stayed in location. I will do some more searching to see whether my listing in my post above are valid. PM me an email address and I'll send you the source file i used. I am really confident that this orbat is correct for 89:

1 UK ARM DIV

7 UK ARM BDE:
SCOTS DG (Challenger) = Royal Scots Dragoon Guards
2 RTR (Challenger) = 2 Royal Tank Regiment
1 STAFFORDS (Warrior) = 1 Staffordshires

12 UK ARM BDE:
4 RTR (Chieftain) = 4 Royal Tank Regiment
1 R IRISH (Fv432) = 1 Royal Irish Rangers
1 RGJ (Fv432) = 1 Royal Green Jackets

22 ARM BDE:
QOH (Chieftain) = Queens own Hussars
1 RTR (Chieftain) = 1 Royal Tank Regiment
1 SG (Fv432) = 1 Scots Guards
2 R ANGLIAN (Fv432) = 2 Royal Anglian

4 Regt RA (M109A2) = 4 Field Regiment Royal Artillery (29/88/97 Field Batteries)
40 Regt RA (M109A2) = (38/129/137 Field Batteries + 10 Battery Javelin Air def)
1 RHA (Abbott) = 1 Royal Horse Artillery (A/B/E Batteries)
21 Regt RE = 21 Field Regiment Royal Engineers
1 AAC (Gazelle/Lynx) = 1 Regiment Army Air Corps (651/652/661 Sqdn)
1 QDG (scimatar/scorpion = 1 Queens Dragoon Guards. Arm Recce Regt attached from Corps

Some naming conventions:

Queens Dragoon Guards (nor Queens Royal Dragoon Guards)
1 Royal Horse Artillery or 1 RHA (not 1st Royal Artillery Regiment)
1 Regt Army Air Corps (not Royal Army Aviation Regiment)
Also should read 40 Regiment RA or 40 Regt RA (not 40th Royal Artillery Regiment)
Same for engineers i.e. 21 Regiment RE or 21 Regt RE

Small points I know but they all stand out like a sore thumb to veterans. Makes more sense when you break down then into batteries & squadrons. i.e. 11 Field Squadron RE

Kit:

For the most part looks ok, however I really don't think Ferrets were used by any BAOR units as late as 89 in any meaningful combat fuction. They are listed in orbats start of 80s as 5-8 per arm regt. 1 per regt & squadron HQ. More as liason vehicle running around rather than an AFV. It was off the combat ORBAT really.

I will look into the units more later

[Gunnulf]

Further to above on 1 QDG. Arm Recce Regt orbat in 1990 listed as:

RHQ 4 Sultan, 4 Spartan, 2 Land Rover FFR
HQ Sqn
LAD REME 1 Sultan, 1 Spartan, 1 Sampson, 1 wheeled recovery vehicle
Sqn HQ 2 Sultan, 1 Spartan, 2 Land Rover FFR
Recce Troop x3 4 Scimitar/Scorpion
GW Troop 4 Striker
Support Troop 4 Spartan
Recce Sqn x4
REME 1 Sampson, 1 Spartan

Generally tough to get exact on unit by unit basis but by the end of 80s much higher proportion of scimitars. Scorpions were not so useful and eventually turrets replaced with that of the Fox armoured car to produce the Sabre CVRT

[Gunnulf]

You should also be aware of the Battle Group concept or BG.

Basically Arm & Arm Inf units marry up and swap sub units. So from above ORBAT as example:

For 7 Arm Bde
SCOTS DG is challenger
2 RTR is challenger
1 STAFFORDS is warrior

So SCOTS DG & 2 RTR both swap one squadron for one company with 1 STAFFORDS.

SCOTS DG BG will then be 1 x Arm Regt HQ 3 x Arm Sqdn 1 x Arm Inf Coy 1 x Arm Support Sqdn
2 RTR BG will then be 1 x Arm Regt HQ 3 x Arm Sqdn 1 x Arm Inf Coy 1 x Arm Support Sqdn
1 STAFFORDS BG will then 1 x Arm Inf Regt HQ 1 x Arm Inf Coy 2 x Arm Sqdn 1 x Arm Inf Support Coy

All tank heavy, though Staffords less so.

12 Arm Bde:
4 RTR is Chieftain
1 R IRISH is Fv432
1 RGJ is Fv432

4 RTR will then be 1 x Arm Regt HQ 2 x Arm Sqdn 2 x Mech Inf Coy 1 x Arm Support Sqdn
1 R IRISH 1 x Mech Inf Regt HQ 2 x Mech Inf Coy 1 x Arm Sqdn 1 x Mech Inf Support Coy
1 RGJ 1 x Mech Inf Regt HQ 2 x Mech Inf Coy 1 x Arm Sqdn 1 x Mech Inf Support Coy

Doing a similar swap they end up with 1 balanced & 2 Mech heavy battlegroups

22 ARM BDE:
QOH is Chieftain
1 RTR is Chieftain
1 SG is Fv432
2 R ANGLIAN is Fv432

When these four form BGs you end up with 2 tank heavy and 2 mech heavy

Battle groups is the key part of BAOR tactics. Very similar to the US 'Team' concept obviously and not rocket science. BG all also would then have various other attachments from Division and Corps depending on task. You probably already knew this but thought worth mentioning. But in summary battalions and regiments would not operate in their entirety (though sure there would be exceptions to the rule as always )

But overall you can see that the Divisional structure and TOEs is such that the 10 BG's it forms are very varied.

[wodin]

British have never fielded whole regiments together preferring to use brigades which consisted of four battalions from different regiments. Again though this is not news I'm sure and I'm only thinking upto WW2..not sure how they do it now as we don't have some many regiments anymore.

Just looking at the post above it looks like it's made of three battalions these days..infact not even sure it's a whole battalion thats mentioned above..seems abit small like one or two coys to small. Though again modern OOB's I've no idea how they work.

[Gunnulf]

As covered above 'Regiments' in British terms applies to battalion sized units of Armour, Artillery, Engineers & Army Aviation.
Infantry units are battalions. Regiment as in 'Royal Anglian Regiment' is strictly administrative for recruitment & training of a group of battalions largely (but not always) based on geographic recruitment area.

Brigades are usually 3 but sometimes 2-4 teeth arm units (btln/regt) plus attached support units and sub-units. However as detailed above in practice within that brigade composite battlegroups are formed for combat purposes. Effectively sub-units (companies & squadrons) will almost always be split and mixed within units on operations in BAOR.

[wodin]

Well lets remember they have their own colours and battle honours..they are abit more than an administrative title. It's just unlike other countries where a regiments battalions would fight together in the UK they didn't maybe on a rare occasion two battalions from the regiment would fight in a brigade but on the whole they would be spread out.

[Gunnulf]

As an organisation they are administrative organisation pure and simple. Zero combat function. RHQ will be an old retired colonel and a few staff handling admin & recruitment. The colours and battle honours are an important part of the regimental families identity but thats ceremonial. For example the Royal Anglians currently have 1st and 2nd battalions, plus a 3rd Territorial reserve btln. In 1989 there were 3 regular and 3 reserve battalions. There will be some exchange of personnel within this regimental family especially with officers through there career. But essentially they are totally separate entities. There are less now but in '89 there were plenty of regiments with just a single regular battalion. But still with an RHQ for admin. I served with 3 regiments over 14 years as as NCO then as an Officer.

[CapnDarwin]

A good bit of info. Thanks Gunnulf.

[Gunnulf]

My pleasure Cap'n, all towards the greater glory of a good product

[Mad Russian]

Please see the thread in the Flash Point Campaigns: Red Storm forums relating to BAOR.

tm.asp?m=3323864&mpage=1&key=&#3323864

All comments and suggestions greatly appreciated.

Good Hunting.

MR