A new mod is coming

[Severian]

axisandallies - first of all high number of the corpses is caused by large number corp or army level reserve units. I will show you that.
Second thing is that it seems we had diffrent data about historical corpses of Wehrmacht. I'm sure Germans had 1st November 1939 17 corpses grouped in Heeresgruppen Nord and Sud. Additional 6 they had in HG C (western border). And this isn't end of German corps-size units.

- HG Nord
Additional Army Group level units
3 infantry divisions
-- 3. Armee
--- I. Armeekorps
--- XXI. Armeekorps
--- Gruppe Brand (fortress of Konigsberg, Goldap and Lotzen. Equivalent of 2 infantry divisions)
--- Stab Wodrig (1st and 12th Infantry Division, 31st Grenztwacht Regiment)
Additional army level units:
217th Infantry Division, Division-size Danzig Group, 15th GrentzschutzAbschitzKommando, few independent battalions
-- 4. Armee
--- II. Armeekorps
--- III. Armeekorps
--- XIX. Armeekorps (mot)
--- Grz.Sch.Abschn.Kdo. 1 (207th Infantry Division, 2 border regiments, medium artillery battalion)
--- Grz.Sch.Abschn.Kdo. 2 (4 border regiments, 2 medium artillery battalions)
--- Grz.Sch.Abschn.Kdo. 12 (6 border regiments, 2 artillery battalions)
Additional army level units:
2 infantry division

Look at that, you see only 5 corpses, I see 7-11 corpses. You had to realize that mine interpretation of OoB may be diffrent than yours. Every HG had army grou, army and corps levels units. When I had few infantry divisions id one place and one of the game rules is: "one unit, one hex", I had no way - I must group them in corps-size unit.

Why we had 2 armoured corpses? Have a look at that.
- 10. Armee - general Reichenau had two light divisions under his control as army commander. These divisions weren't light infantry divisions, but armoured. 1st Leichte Division (with attached Panzer-Regiment 25) had 300 tanks, 3rd Leichte had 80 tanks. It gave us unit stronger than single German armoured division, but why so strong? Because of additional army group-size units like motorised antitank guns battalion or artillery battalions.
- XVIII. Armeekorps - it had 4th Leichte Division (62 tanks) and 2nd Armoured Division (322 tanks). It gave us unit as strong, as 10. Armee units directly commanded by Reichenau.

At the end - with my system of "stacking" it won't be a mistake to add next 10 corpses to historical 23 official Army Corpses of German Army. If I had 5 divisions in small area, I had to trade-off between game mechanics and history.


I hope you understand now how the OoB has been created.

[axisandallies]

ORIGINAL: Severian

axisandallies - first of all high number of the corpses is caused by large number corp or army level reserve units. I will show you that.
Second thing is that it seems we had diffrent data about historical corpses of Wehrmacht. I'm sure Germans had 1st November 1939 17 corpses grouped in Heeresgruppen Nord and Sud. Additional 6 they had in HG C (western border). And this isn't end of German corps-size units.

- HG Nord
Additional Army Group level units
3 infantry divisions
-- 3. Armee
--- I. Armeekorps
--- XXI. Armeekorps
--- Gruppe Brand (fortress of Konigsberg, Goldap and Lotzen. Equivalent of 2 infantry divisions)
--- Stab Wodrig (1st and 12th Infantry Division, 31st Grenztwacht Regiment)
Additional army level units:
217th Infantry Division, Division-size Danzig Group, 15th GrentzschutzAbschitzKommando, few independent battalions
-- 4. Armee
--- II. Armeekorps
--- III. Armeekorps
--- XIX. Armeekorps (mot)
--- Grz.Sch.Abschn.Kdo. 1 (207th Infantry Division, 2 border regiments, medium artillery battalion)
--- Grz.Sch.Abschn.Kdo. 2 (4 border regiments, 2 medium artillery battalions)
--- Grz.Sch.Abschn.Kdo. 12 (6 border regiments, 2 artillery battalions)
Additional army level units:
2 infantry division

Look at that, you see only 5 corpses, I see 7-11 corpses. You had to realize that mine interpretation of OoB may be diffrent than yours. Every HG had army grou, army and corps levels units. When I had few infantry divisions id one place and one of the game rules is: "one unit, one hex", I had no way - I must group them in corps-size unit.

Why we had 2 armoured corpses? Have a look at that.
- 10. Armee - general Reichenau had two light divisions under his control as army commander. These divisions weren't light infantry divisions, but armoured. 1st Leichte Division (with attached Panzer-Regiment 25) had 300 tanks, 3rd Leichte had 80 tanks. It gave us unit stronger than single German armoured division, but why so strong? Because of additional army group-size units like motorised antitank guns battalion or artillery battalions.
- XVIII. Armeekorps - it had 4th Leichte Division (62 tanks) and 2nd Armoured Division (322 tanks). It gave us unit as strong, as 10. Armee units directly commanded by Reichenau.

At the end - with my system of "stacking" it won't be a mistake to add next 10 corpses to historical 23 official Army Corpses of German Army. If I had 5 divisions in small area, I had to trade-off between game mechanics and history.


I hope you understand now how the OoB has been created.

- 10. Armee - general Reichenau had two light divisions under his control as army commander. These divisions weren't light infantry divisions, but armoured. 1st Leichte Division (with attached Panzer-Regiment 25) had 300 tanks, 3rd Leichte had 80 tanks. It gave us unit stronger than single German armoured division, but why so strong? Because of additional army group-size units like motorised antitank guns battalion or artillery battalions.

German Light divisions;
the original light divisions were formed begining in 1934-1936, and four (numbered 1st through 4th) were in existence when the Wehrmacht invaded Poland in 1939. They consisted of two motorized rifle regiments, a tank battalion, a recon regiment and numerous supporting units. They proved to be too unwiedly in Poland, and in the winter of 1939-1940 converted into panzer units. (page 14 vol 1 German order of battle. stacckpole military history series.) 3oo tanks? I don't think so. Each light division had at the max less than 50 tanks.

[swatter555]

My mod isn't going to be dealing with OOB issues.

What I have been playing around with (in addition to the changes already mentioned) is a new units mod. My old mod provided tons of easy to see info, and in that sense I prefer my old mod, but in a purely visual sense I like my new mod. Peter123 inspired these creations, but I decided to add some consistency and lots more info. Take a look, but keep in mind I have only modded german units at this point.

[doomtrader]

ORIGINAL: axisandallies
German Light divisions;
the original light divisions were formed begining in 1934-1936, and four (numbered 1st through 4th) were in existence when the Wehrmacht invaded Poland in 1939. They consisted of two motorized rifle regiments, a tank battalion, a recon regiment and numerous supporting units. They proved to be too unwiedly in Poland, and in the winter of 1939-1940 converted into panzer units. (page 14 vol 1 German order of battle. stacckpole military history series.) 3oo tanks? I don't think so. Each light division had at the max less than 50 tanks.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... 1leDiv.htm

Die Division verfügte so am 1. September 1939 65 Panzern II, 112 Panzer 38t, 41 Panzer IV und 8 Panzerbefehlswagen 35t

65+112+41+8=226

[Severian]

3oo tanks? I don't think so. Each light division had at the max less than 50 tanks.  

1. Leichte-Division wasn't normal light division. It had permanently one tank battalion, Panzer-Abteilung 65 (73 tanks), and one tank regiment, Panzer-Regiment 11 (153 tanks). Temporarly attached to this division was additionaly Panzer-Regiment 25 (74 tanks).

2. Leichte-Division had 85 tanks (41 Panzer I, 42 Panzer II, 2 command tanks).
3. Leichte-Division had 80 tanks (23 Panzer II, 55 Panzer 38(t), 2 command tanks).
4. Leichte-Division had 62 tanks (34 Panzer I, 23 Panzer II, 5 command tanks).

[Hairog]

Looking good Swatter. Is there an indication of the tech level that I can't see?

[axisandallies]

ORIGINAL: Severian

3oo tanks? I don't think so. Each light division had at the max less than 50 tanks.  

1. Leichte-Division wasn't normal light division. It had permanently one tank battalion, Panzer-Abteilung 65 (73 tanks), and one tank regiment, Panzer-Regiment 11 (153 tanks). Temporarly attached to this division was additionaly Panzer-Regiment 25 (74 tanks).

2. Leichte-Division had 85 tanks (41 Panzer I, 42 Panzer II, 2 command tanks).
3. Leichte-Division had 80 tanks (23 Panzer II, 55 Panzer 38(t), 2 command tanks).
4. Leichte-Division had 62 tanks (34 Panzer I, 23 Panzer II, 5 command tanks).

The point that I was making is this, the light divisions added up to one panzer division as far as Panzer divisions of 1939 go. And to say well these are reason to add a 2nd Panzer Korps to the German OOB, to me is absurd.

[axisandallies]

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

ORIGINAL: axisandallies
German Light divisions;
the original light divisions were formed begining in 1934-1936, and four (numbered 1st through 4th) were in existence when the Wehrmacht invaded Poland in 1939. They consisted of two motorized rifle regiments, a tank battalion, a recon regiment and numerous supporting units. They proved to be too unwiedly in Poland, and in the winter of 1939-1940 converted into panzer units. (page 14 vol 1 German order of battle. stacckpole military history series.) 3oo tanks? I don't think so. Each light division had at the max less than 50 tanks.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... 1leDiv.htm

Die Division verfügte so am 1. September 1939 65 Panzern II, 112 Panzer 38t, 41 Panzer IV und 8 Panzerbefehlswagen 35t

65+112+41+8=226

Anyone can make a website and put numbers in it. Source for these facts(on website) none. Look I don't want to fight, I love this game. I enjoy my own counters and that of others. 50% of stats can be altered 99% of the time. From what I have read on this I can find no source that would tell me that the Germans had 33 corps and 2 Panzer Korps as of September 1st, 1939. The Light divisions where just that light until after Poland.

[axisandallies]

Since doomtrader thinks everyone can read German, I will put it in English, and add history mixed with it.
6th Panzer Division: aka 1st light division.
Created as the 1st Light Division, this unit was composed of Westphalians and Rhinelanders. It initially contained tthe 4th Medhanized Cavalry Regiment and the 65th Panzer Battalion. It took part in the occupation of the Sudetenland (1938) and Czechoslovakia (1939) and fought in southern Poland in September 1939. It was converted to a panzer division that winter after the German High Command pronounced its light divisions experiment a failure. The 1st Light Division was redesignated the 6th Panzer Division on October 18th, 1939. This unit isn't even in the 1939 grand scn. The 5th panzer division played a minor and inconspicuous role in Poland yet this unit is on the map in 1939. the 10tth Panzer played a reserve roll as well, but in this game it's right on the front lines.

[swatter555]

ORIGINAL: Hairog

Looking good Swatter. Is there an indication of the tech level that I can't see?

Thanks. Yes, I put the vanilla tech indicator off to the side of the flag.

[swatter555]

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

Since doomtrader thinks everyone can read German, I will put it in English, and add history mixed with it.
6th Panzer Division: aka 1st light division.
Created as the 1st Light Division, this unit was composed of Westphalians and Rhinelanders. It initially contained tthe 4th Medhanized Cavalry Regiment and the 65th Panzer Battalion. It took part in the occupation of the Sudetenland (1938) and Czechoslovakia (1939) and fought in southern Poland in September 1939. It was converted to a panzer division that winter after the German High Command pronounced its light divisions experiment a failure. The 1st Light Division was redesignated the 6th Panzer Division on October 18th, 1939. This unit isn't even in the 1939 grand scn. The 5th panzer division played a minor and inconspicuous role in Poland yet this unit is on the map in 1939. the 10tth Panzer played a reserve roll as well, but in this game it's right on the front lines.

You need to create your own mod. Creating a new unit list is very easy.

[swatter555]

One of the goals of my mod is going to be to decrease the ease of winter offensives and increase the effectiveness of fair weather offensives. Reading through the AARs, it seems like the historical pauses that occured during winter weather don't exist in the game. Players just continue attacking and attacking.

For the mod movement during snow and mud is going to be more difficult, along with decreased combat effectiveness. I will however decrease the ZOC movement penalty, so offensives during good weather should be more effective. At the same time I would like toy with entrenchment bonuses.

[swatter555]

For anyone who is paying attention, I will list the changes I have made along with test results. My intention is to change the flow of the game, make the flow of the game more historical, giving the human player a reason to pause during the winter. In addition, I want to make offensives during good weather more effective. I want the Germans (even the AI) to strike like a thunder clap the first 2 years. To this goal I have changed the action points recieved (which is based on land warfare doctrine). The Germans start a 2 LWD, and most everyone else is 0. The doctrine changes level out for levels 3 and 4, giving the allies a chance to catch up.

Change List:
1) Leader Ratings: Changed leaders I thought were too poorly rated.
2) All ship start repaired: I found this annoying, plus makes up for lost PPs due to shorter year.
3) Slovakia surrenders on turn one: What the heck was it doing in there anyway?
4) Attacker losses in airstrikes decreased on average rolls, increased for a bad roll. I might change this back.
5) Airstrike losses greater: Vanilla airstikes don't make any economic sense in most cases. Now they do.
6) Air combat is somewhat more deadly. I wish the AI was up to this, it might not be. A human player could have too much of an advantage with this. Needs testing.
7) Doctrine level and action points: Germans have a great advantage to start.
8) Zone of control penalty reduced for mot and tank: Once again, clear weather attacks will be more effective.
9) Turns per month adjusted to the following: Jan-Dec 2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,4,3,3,2.
10) Mountain defense doubled. Hill and city defense also increased, but not as drastic.
11) Trenches now build up in increments of 10 for a maximum of 40.
12) Winter battle effectiveness halved.
13) Winter move cost increased 50%.
14) Mud effectiveness and movement changed a little also.

These changes should increase blitzkrieg type offensives in good weather and make winters pass with only limited offensive actions. It remains to see the long-term consequences, which I am going to test. Ill keep whoever is paying attention posted.

Edit-

BTW I tested these changes for a couple of turns so far as the Germans (I am modding the 39 campaign). The offensive into Poland has struck with tremendous force. By the end of the second week, my northern and southern pincers were within two hexes of Warsaw. I have put at least 10-20 divisions in a pretty large pocket. Poland should be finished off in historical time or better. I like the changes so far.

[Hairog]

Sounds great Swatter. Can't wait to try it out. This is a good game that could be great. Keep it up.

[swatter555]

Here is a screen shot from Overloard, to show the graphics side of things.

[Uxbridge]

ORIGINAL: swatter555

For anyone who is paying attention, I will list the changes I have made along with test results. My intention is to change the flow of the game, make the flow of the game more historical, giving the human player a reason to pause during the winter. In addition, I want to make offensives during good weather more effective. I want the Germans (even the AI) to strike like a thunder clap the first 2 years. To this goal I have changed the action points recieved (which is based on land warfare doctrine). The Germans start a 2 LWD, and most everyone else is 0. The doctrine changes level out for levels 3 and 4, giving the allies a chance to catch up.

Change List:
1) Leader Ratings: Changed leaders I thought were too poorly rated.
2) All ship start repaired: I found this annoying, plus makes up for lost PPs due to shorter year.
3) Slovakia surrenders on turn one: What the heck was it doing in there anyway?
4) Attacker losses in airstrikes decreased on average rolls, increased for a bad roll. I might change this back.
5) Airstrike losses greater: Vanilla airstikes don't make any economic sense in most cases. Now they do.
6) Air combat is somewhat more deadly. I wish the AI was up to this, it might not be. A human player could have too much of an advantage with this. Needs testing.
7) Doctrine level and action points: Germans have a great advantage to start.
8) Zone of control penalty reduced for mot and tank: Once again, clear weather attacks will be more effective.
9) Turns per month adjusted to the following: Jan-Dec 2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,4,3,3,2.
10) Mountain defense doubled. Hill and city defense also increased, but not as drastic.
11) Trenches now build up in increments of 10 for a maximum of 40.
12) Winter battle effectiveness halved.
13) Winter move cost increased 50%.
14) Mud effectiveness and movement changed a little also.

These changes should increase blitzkrieg type offensives in good weather and make winters pass with only limited offensive actions. It remains to see the long-term consequences, which I am going to test. Ill keep whoever is paying attention posted.

Edit-

BTW I tested these changes for a couple of turns so far as the Germans (I am modding the 39 campaign). The offensive into Poland has struck with tremendous force. By the end of the second week, my northern and southern pincers were within two hexes of Warsaw. I have put at least 10-20 divisions in a pretty large pocket. Poland should be finished off in historical time or better. I like the changes so far.

Nice to see your efforts, Swatter, especially that you are now threading ground where I was last year. Our minds work in the same way, obviously. I don’t have time for more modding now, and have restricted myself to playing the game. Having some experience with this beast, I will gladly help, however, if you have any questions regarding what I did in ETO.

Just a few comments on your changes. When I have no comment, the action is either fine or indifferent to me.


Change List:
1) No comment.
2) I did this also. Then it’s much easier to see what units have taken losses. They represent groups anyway.
3) It is possible and rather easy to get rid of Slovakia altogether. Let me know if you like to know how.
4) No comment.
5) Might be dangerous. When the air units reach higher levels, I think they are pretty effective. Changing the combat settings for this might cause problems later on. It may cause the air units to be cost effective and then you will have huge air forces.
6) Really dangerous. A skilled player can easily gain superiority early and keep it in a way that the entire game becomes unbalanced.
7) Good point, but make them keep it also. In ETO the Germans start with a lead and holds it for the duration of the game. UK and USA reach level 4 late, but USSR never exceed level 3. I used 1.50 as a modifier. Creates really scary German units.
8) I lowered the effect for armour, but raised it for motorized units. Gives a more balanced effect.
9) No comment.
10) No comment.
11) No comment.
12) This is what I did also, before I discovered that the reduction benefitted the attacker and not the defender. It’s very problematic to get around. Presently we play with different consts.csv depending on season.
13) No comment.
14) No comment.

Keep up the good work! [:)]

[Hairog]

I suggest that you take Uxbridge up on his offer swatter. His ETO is a good mod. We've been playing it for a few months.

[swatter555]

ORIGINAL: Uxbridge

ORIGINAL: swatter555

For anyone who is paying attention, I will list the changes I have made along with test results. My intention is to change the flow of the game, make the flow of the game more historical, giving the human player a reason to pause during the winter. In addition, I want to make offensives during good weather more effective. I want the Germans (even the AI) to strike like a thunder clap the first 2 years. To this goal I have changed the action points recieved (which is based on land warfare doctrine). The Germans start a 2 LWD, and most everyone else is 0. The doctrine changes level out for levels 3 and 4, giving the allies a chance to catch up.

Change List:
1) Leader Ratings: Changed leaders I thought were too poorly rated.
2) All ship start repaired: I found this annoying, plus makes up for lost PPs due to shorter year.
3) Slovakia surrenders on turn one: What the heck was it doing in there anyway?
4) Attacker losses in airstrikes decreased on average rolls, increased for a bad roll. I might change this back.
5) Airstrike losses greater: Vanilla airstikes don't make any economic sense in most cases. Now they do.
6) Air combat is somewhat more deadly. I wish the AI was up to this, it might not be. A human player could have too much of an advantage with this. Needs testing.
7) Doctrine level and action points: Germans have a great advantage to start.
8) Zone of control penalty reduced for mot and tank: Once again, clear weather attacks will be more effective.
9) Turns per month adjusted to the following: Jan-Dec 2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,4,3,3,2.
10) Mountain defense doubled. Hill and city defense also increased, but not as drastic.
11) Trenches now build up in increments of 10 for a maximum of 40.
12) Winter battle effectiveness halved.
13) Winter move cost increased 50%.
14) Mud effectiveness and movement changed a little also.

These changes should increase blitzkrieg type offensives in good weather and make winters pass with only limited offensive actions. It remains to see the long-term consequences, which I am going to test. Ill keep whoever is paying attention posted.

Edit-

BTW I tested these changes for a couple of turns so far as the Germans (I am modding the 39 campaign). The offensive into Poland has struck with tremendous force. By the end of the second week, my northern and southern pincers were within two hexes of Warsaw. I have put at least 10-20 divisions in a pretty large pocket. Poland should be finished off in historical time or better. I like the changes so far.

Nice to see your efforts, Swatter, especially that you are now threading ground where I was last year. Our minds work in the same way, obviously. I don’t have time for more modding now, and have restricted myself to playing the game. Having some experience with this beast, I will gladly help, however, if you have any questions regarding what I did in ETO.

Just a few comments on your changes. When I have no comment, the action is either fine or indifferent to me.


Change List:
1) No comment.
2) I did this also. Then it’s much easier to see what units have taken losses. They represent groups anyway.
3) It is possible and rather easy to get rid of Slovakia altogether. Let me know if you like to know how.
4) No comment.
5) Might be dangerous. When the air units reach higher levels, I think they are pretty effective. Changing the combat settings for this might cause problems later on. It may cause the air units to be cost effective and then you will have huge air forces.
6) Really dangerous. A skilled player can easily gain superiority early and keep it in a way that the entire game becomes unbalanced.
7) Good point, but make them keep it also. In ETO the Germans start with a lead and holds it for the duration of the game. UK and USA reach level 4 late, but USSR never exceed level 3. I used 1.50 as a modifier. Creates really scary German units.
8) I lowered the effect for armour, but raised it for motorized units. Gives a more balanced effect.
9) No comment.
10) No comment.
11) No comment.
12) This is what I did also, before I discovered that the reduction benefitted the attacker and not the defender. It’s very problematic to get around. Presently we play with different consts.csv depending on season.
13) No comment.
14) No comment.

Keep up the good work! [:)]

Thanks for the help! I do know that some of the changes are simply preliminary, but I am liking my changes already in-game.

3) I didn't know how much the nations are embedded in the script, so I just safely take them out.
5) For realism, they still need to be effective early in the game. Maybe to balance it out, I will increase air support losses.
6) Ya, I could see this coming.
8) Ill consider this after some testing.
12) Not a big deal, I can just make movement even more costly if needed. Is this a bug or something?

I plan to test out a whole campaign and re-evaluate.

[Uxbridge]

3. To take Slovakia out, you only need to change the country to "0" in countries, revert the Slovakian hexes to German hexes (map editor), change Slovakian ground and air units to German and maybe remove the events line for Slovakia in the events files (don't know if this is necessary, but don't think it hurts).
5. I solved this by having a small number of elite level-3 air units for Germany and Britain in the original set-up, but with the tech level still at 2. Thus they could use these units early, but couldn't produce more before the higher tech level was reached. It's very important that air units are cost ineffective just as they were in reality.
8. As I see it mechanized infantry are a part of the armour units. Motorized infantry moves in trucks, but fight on foot. If you get a major breakthrough, motorized units will stream throgh the breach. I don't think, however, that they should have squeezing abilty, like armour and mechanized.
12. Not a bug, really. The main problem is in the intermediate period between fine weather and all-covering snow. In my world the snow is supposed to make attacks more difficult, but here it works the other way round. Since the attacker can chose where to attack, he will position himself in clear or mud whenever possible and attack the defender in the snowy hexes. In USSR 1941, this will make the German process of grinding the Soviet defenders down much more easy. This period should be one of Soviet recuperation; instead it will only help Germany hurt the Soviet economy more. Tricky!