Obsolete,
Thanks for the good news. I was hoping to have the updated corrected information in the updated manual before releasing it to the community. Could I ask either you or Michael to take some time to update the rules section too? If you lay out the details here in the forum I will incorporate into the manual. Whatever works best for you guys.
Thanks again. Great game!
Final Rule on Withdrawal
Moderator: Obsolete
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal
No problem Chief!
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal
ORIGINAL: MichaelCooney
- The new hex is not further from the enemy than the old hex
So what jumps out at me is the "The new hex is not further from the enemy than the old hex".
I assume that that one test scenario is repeatable?
If that's the problem, it's an easy(ish) fix.
I have now done a few tests on different maps and different terrain and different types of units and I can confirm:
-yes that the problem!
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RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal
ORIGINAL: Joe 98
The rules have not changed
"A withdrawing unit may always move one hex, regardless of the MPs required to enter that hex. "-
That makes it clear it has not been working properly
Yep not working properly:
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PirateJock
- Posts: 469
- Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:59 pm
- Location: North West, UK
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal
Bumped as contains some useful info ...
Combat Command Matrix Edition Company, The Forgotten Few
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal
Well, since we are dragging everything back out of the closet I'll take a look at resurrecting the player's manual for further improvement if you guys deem it worthwhile.
No problem Chief!
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junk2drive
- Posts: 12856
- Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:27 am
- Location: Arizona West Coast
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal
Yes please.
Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal
Definitely worth doing (and thanks for the previous efforts) however it might be worth waiting until we have confirmation that a withdrawal fix is possible, that it is actually going to work this time and that it is going to be done in the not too distant future before expending additional effort.
"In War: Resolution. In Defeat: Defiance. In Victory: Magnanimity. In Peace: Goodwill." - Winston Churchill
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal
That would be wonderful Max, but like Wolfe said, you guys should probably wait and see what gets fixed. I don't want you burned out on the project if it becomes a moving target, because it is a worthwhile endeavor for everyone that likes Combat Command and we all benefit from your efforts. Thanks again for all the work you already have done.
Combat Command Matrix Edition Company, The Forgotten Few
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal
If you upload the latest version, I can read it whilst travelling soon.
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RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal
OK, here we are again!
Does this still depend on passing a quality check first? If the check passes, the unit may attempt to retreat?
From pg 25, "Units in Withdraw Posture take Quality Checks and, if passed, retreat. If the unit does not pass the quality check it remains in place, lose a step and may even be eliminated."
I believe this applies to all units regardless of disruption level.
From page 32, "A unit starting in an EZOC can only enter an adjacent EZOC (via Infiltration) or an adjacent non-EZOC hex by Withdrawing from it during the Withdrawal Phase."
From PJ's statement above, there is NO entering an EZOC regardless
From pg 33, "A unit in Withdraw Posture must withdraw during the Withdrawal Phase if adjacent to the enemy. Withdrawing units may take additional casualties or Disruption based on the presence of friendly / enemy units. When units withdraw from assault combat, one less hit is taken by each side, if any hits were called for.
If it is not in an enemy ZOC, it will never withdraw.
Example 1: Two units are battling each other. The defender orders his unit to Withdraw. As it turns out the attacker took some damage and must withdraw. The attacker withdraws first (as per the manual). The defender is no longer in an enemy ZOC so he will not withdraw in spite of the order.
Example 2: Two units are battling each other. As it turns out both units took damage and both must withdraw. The attacker withdraws first. The defender is no longer in an enemy ZOC so he will not withdraw in spite of the result. "
OK.
From pg 37, "Every Withdrawing unit takes a Quality Check. Additional Disruption and/or hits may result. See “Charts and Tables” in Section 10 for a full explanation."
Quality chk? Do we need to modify tables in section 10?
From pg 38, "Any unit in a Withdrawal Posture MUST withdraw (W/D) during the Withdrawal Phase if not in enemy EZOC. (Exception: Withdrawing units with no enemy units adjacent are never forced to withdraw.) A Withdrawal is a move from an EZOC hex into a Non-EZOC hex.
Withdrawal occurs in two ways:
• A unit may be forced to Withdraw as a result of combat.
• A unit that adopted a Withdrawal Posture during the Movement Phase must W/D during the Withdrawal Phase (unless accepted as above).
Units surrounded by EZOCs will lose a step and increase Disruption +1"
first sentence - should add: unless all hexes are EZOCs.
From pg 38, Withdrawing units never have to spend additional MPs for exiting an EZOC. During their Withdrawal, however, a withdrawing unit may not enter an EZOC. If a unit cannot withdraw due to the presence of EZOCs or enemy units, it takes a Withdrawal Check, assumes a Defensive Posture, and remains in place. It loses any previous Fort Levels. NOT SURE ABOUT THAT LAST PART. DELETE?[color=#FF0000] The unit will lose a step and increase Disruption +1[/color]"
withdrawal check or does it lose a step and increases disruption?
From pg 39, "Any unit that must withdraw will be highlighted. Select a highlighted unit and its withdrawal path and final withdrawal hexes will be displayed. The unit must end its withdrawal in one of the green hexes. The red hexes show the rout it must take to reach a green hex. The Player can either withdraw the unit one hex at a time, or withdraw the unit at once by clicking on a green hex. (If no green hex is displayed for a withdrawing unit, then it must withdraw until it has 0 MPs remaining. In this case, it may end its withdrawal in a red hex, so long as it has no MPs remaining.) Units that must withdraw have a dashed highlight. The currently selected withdrawing unit has a solid highlight. The Player can select and de-select units by clicking on them. (Keep in mind that the act of withdrawing may cause further disruption and loss of step if surrounded by EZOCs. The game will inform you of this at the beginning of the Withdrawal Phase.) To end a unit’s withdrawal prior to the unit expending all MPs (when its withdrawal ends automatically), click “Finished Withdrawing” to go to the next withdrawing unit (if any)."
OK.
From pg 39, "Withdrawing units must take a Quality Check which could result in Disruption Levels or loss of step on the Withdrawing unit if within EZOCs."
OK. Maybe add bit about no w/d into EZOCs?
Based on your testing so far, can you guys review and make corrections? I think what is confusing me is whether there is a difference between a unit forced to w/d via combat vs. a unit that has been odered to w/d for re-deployment. I think some clarification is needed here as to what rule differences apply, if any.
Thanks.
ORIGINAL: PirateJock
Currently, units will withdraw as expected as long as their route is not blocked by an enemy unit or its ZoC. If the route is blocked they take a hit; rather than just sit there at Disruption 4.
Cheers
Does this still depend on passing a quality check first? If the check passes, the unit may attempt to retreat?
From pg 25, "Units in Withdraw Posture take Quality Checks and, if passed, retreat. If the unit does not pass the quality check it remains in place, lose a step and may even be eliminated."
I believe this applies to all units regardless of disruption level.
From page 32, "A unit starting in an EZOC can only enter an adjacent EZOC (via Infiltration) or an adjacent non-EZOC hex by Withdrawing from it during the Withdrawal Phase."
From PJ's statement above, there is NO entering an EZOC regardless
From pg 33, "A unit in Withdraw Posture must withdraw during the Withdrawal Phase if adjacent to the enemy. Withdrawing units may take additional casualties or Disruption based on the presence of friendly / enemy units. When units withdraw from assault combat, one less hit is taken by each side, if any hits were called for.
If it is not in an enemy ZOC, it will never withdraw.
Example 1: Two units are battling each other. The defender orders his unit to Withdraw. As it turns out the attacker took some damage and must withdraw. The attacker withdraws first (as per the manual). The defender is no longer in an enemy ZOC so he will not withdraw in spite of the order.
Example 2: Two units are battling each other. As it turns out both units took damage and both must withdraw. The attacker withdraws first. The defender is no longer in an enemy ZOC so he will not withdraw in spite of the result. "
OK.
From pg 37, "Every Withdrawing unit takes a Quality Check. Additional Disruption and/or hits may result. See “Charts and Tables” in Section 10 for a full explanation."
Quality chk? Do we need to modify tables in section 10?
From pg 38, "Any unit in a Withdrawal Posture MUST withdraw (W/D) during the Withdrawal Phase if not in enemy EZOC. (Exception: Withdrawing units with no enemy units adjacent are never forced to withdraw.) A Withdrawal is a move from an EZOC hex into a Non-EZOC hex.
Withdrawal occurs in two ways:
• A unit may be forced to Withdraw as a result of combat.
• A unit that adopted a Withdrawal Posture during the Movement Phase must W/D during the Withdrawal Phase (unless accepted as above).
Units surrounded by EZOCs will lose a step and increase Disruption +1"
first sentence - should add: unless all hexes are EZOCs.
From pg 38, Withdrawing units never have to spend additional MPs for exiting an EZOC. During their Withdrawal, however, a withdrawing unit may not enter an EZOC. If a unit cannot withdraw due to the presence of EZOCs or enemy units, it takes a Withdrawal Check, assumes a Defensive Posture, and remains in place. It loses any previous Fort Levels. NOT SURE ABOUT THAT LAST PART. DELETE?[color=#FF0000] The unit will lose a step and increase Disruption +1[/color]"
withdrawal check or does it lose a step and increases disruption?
From pg 39, "Any unit that must withdraw will be highlighted. Select a highlighted unit and its withdrawal path and final withdrawal hexes will be displayed. The unit must end its withdrawal in one of the green hexes. The red hexes show the rout it must take to reach a green hex. The Player can either withdraw the unit one hex at a time, or withdraw the unit at once by clicking on a green hex. (If no green hex is displayed for a withdrawing unit, then it must withdraw until it has 0 MPs remaining. In this case, it may end its withdrawal in a red hex, so long as it has no MPs remaining.) Units that must withdraw have a dashed highlight. The currently selected withdrawing unit has a solid highlight. The Player can select and de-select units by clicking on them. (Keep in mind that the act of withdrawing may cause further disruption and loss of step if surrounded by EZOCs. The game will inform you of this at the beginning of the Withdrawal Phase.) To end a unit’s withdrawal prior to the unit expending all MPs (when its withdrawal ends automatically), click “Finished Withdrawing” to go to the next withdrawing unit (if any)."
OK.
From pg 39, "Withdrawing units must take a Quality Check which could result in Disruption Levels or loss of step on the Withdrawing unit if within EZOCs."
OK. Maybe add bit about no w/d into EZOCs?
Based on your testing so far, can you guys review and make corrections? I think what is confusing me is whether there is a difference between a unit forced to w/d via combat vs. a unit that has been odered to w/d for re-deployment. I think some clarification is needed here as to what rule differences apply, if any.
Thanks.
No problem Chief!
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal
For a unit to withdraw, it must be in an enemy ZOC. If it is not in an enemy ZOC, it will never withdraw.
Example 1: Two units are battling each other. The defender orders his unit to Withdraw. As it turns out the attacker took some damage and must withdraw. The attacker withdraws first (as per the manual). The defender is no longer in an enemy ZOC so he will not withdraw in spite of the order.
Example 2: Two units are battling each other. As it turns out both units took damage and both must withdraw. The attacker withdraws first. The defender is no longer in an enemy ZOC so he will not withdraw in spite of the result.
The manual says that a unit will always withdraw one hex even if he does not have enough movement points. I suspect this was a mistake in the manual.
In combat, the result might be a withdrawl.
In combat, a unit might take damage and his disruption reaches 4 - withdrawl is automatic.
A player might give a unit to order to withdraw.
An arty unit attacks an enemy unit causing disruption to reach 4 - withdrawl is automatic
Off board support might attack an enemy unit causing disruption to reach 4 - withdrawl is automatic
Units moving in certain situations, units landing as paras or amphibious assault are all subject to quality checks and disruption might reach 4 - withdrawl is automatic
If a unit is not in enemy ZOC it will switch to Assault posture but not try to withdraw.
If a unit is in enemy ZOC it will switch to Assault posture and try to withdraw.
The withdraw path could be blocked by enemy ZOC or by terrain. If so it will take a hit. It will also take a QC and might possiblty take a second hit.
If such a unit has reached disruption 4 and is reduced to 1 hit or 2 hits in strength it will probably be destroyed in an attack the following turn. Hence your path is cleared.
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NOTE: Where 10.7 says "Lvl 3 or 4: auto withdrawl" this is an error.
It should read: "Lvl 4: auto withdrawl"
Example 1: Two units are battling each other. The defender orders his unit to Withdraw. As it turns out the attacker took some damage and must withdraw. The attacker withdraws first (as per the manual). The defender is no longer in an enemy ZOC so he will not withdraw in spite of the order.
Example 2: Two units are battling each other. As it turns out both units took damage and both must withdraw. The attacker withdraws first. The defender is no longer in an enemy ZOC so he will not withdraw in spite of the result.
The manual says that a unit will always withdraw one hex even if he does not have enough movement points. I suspect this was a mistake in the manual.
In combat, the result might be a withdrawl.
In combat, a unit might take damage and his disruption reaches 4 - withdrawl is automatic.
A player might give a unit to order to withdraw.
An arty unit attacks an enemy unit causing disruption to reach 4 - withdrawl is automatic
Off board support might attack an enemy unit causing disruption to reach 4 - withdrawl is automatic
Units moving in certain situations, units landing as paras or amphibious assault are all subject to quality checks and disruption might reach 4 - withdrawl is automatic
If a unit is not in enemy ZOC it will switch to Assault posture but not try to withdraw.
If a unit is in enemy ZOC it will switch to Assault posture and try to withdraw.
The withdraw path could be blocked by enemy ZOC or by terrain. If so it will take a hit. It will also take a QC and might possiblty take a second hit.
If such a unit has reached disruption 4 and is reduced to 1 hit or 2 hits in strength it will probably be destroyed in an attack the following turn. Hence your path is cleared.
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NOTE: Where 10.7 says "Lvl 3 or 4: auto withdrawl" this is an error.
It should read: "Lvl 4: auto withdrawl"
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal
There is another time when withdrawl will not happen.
When a unit is due to withdraw it will do a withdrawl check. If it fails that check it will not withdraw.
One of the variables in the formula is the Disruption level. Higher disruption = higher chance of failing the withdrawl check.
Again, if it doesn't withdraw when it should, it will take a hit.
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When a unit is due to withdraw it will do a withdrawl check. If it fails that check it will not withdraw.
One of the variables in the formula is the Disruption level. Higher disruption = higher chance of failing the withdrawl check.
Again, if it doesn't withdraw when it should, it will take a hit.
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RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal
Just checking in Joe. Looking forward to playing this again. Thanks for all the work you and PJ did.
Max thanks for keeping the manual up to date.
Max thanks for keeping the manual up to date.
Combat Command Matrix Edition Company, The Forgotten Few
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal
Please see RED text in my post above for suggested changes to withdrawal rule in the manual. I have added the Infiltration tip to the manual. So please review and let me know what corrections/additions I need to make. Lets wrap this up.
No problem Chief!
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal
I can add some more:
If a unit is meant to withdraw and cannot, it will take a hit instead.
If a unit is meant to withdraw, you will see a series of red hexes and green hexes. The unit must cross the red hexes and stop on a green hex.
Now read the last part of paragraph 10.7.1
If a unit has a lower disruption level and is meant to withdraw, the withdrawl distance will be shorter.
If a unit has a higher disruption level and is meant to withdraw, the withdrawl distance will be greater.
New info: If a unit is near the edge of the map and has a higher disruption level, the red hexes will (in theory) extend off the edge of the map. As it cannot reach the green hexes it cannot withdraw and so will take a hit.
If a unit is meant to withdraw and cannot, it will take a hit instead.
If a unit is meant to withdraw, you will see a series of red hexes and green hexes. The unit must cross the red hexes and stop on a green hex.
Now read the last part of paragraph 10.7.1
If a unit has a lower disruption level and is meant to withdraw, the withdrawl distance will be shorter.
If a unit has a higher disruption level and is meant to withdraw, the withdrawl distance will be greater.
New info: If a unit is near the edge of the map and has a higher disruption level, the red hexes will (in theory) extend off the edge of the map. As it cannot reach the green hexes it cannot withdraw and so will take a hit.
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal
Joe,
A lot of what you write is already in the manual just scattered about. I will add a new section to the manual, "Important Rules Regarding Withdrawal" and summarize all of the more important points you have mentioned.
A lot of what you write is already in the manual just scattered about. I will add a new section to the manual, "Important Rules Regarding Withdrawal" and summarize all of the more important points you have mentioned.
No problem Chief!
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal
okay, this game is great but I still don't fully understand the dreaded withdrawal rule after all. I noticed that units set to w/d posture during movement segment only withdraw if disruption is lower than 3. If disruption is 3 or 4 they never withdraw and only get additional disruption or hits when failing a w/d check. Is this correct? This is what happenes frequently in the Carentan scenario... Is there anybody that fully understands withdrawal?
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal
A unit must be adjacent to an enemy unit or it will never withdraw.
The enemy unit must be projecting a ZOC or the friendly unit will never withdraw.
A enemy unit will never project a ZOC across a river ( at least I think so) so the friendly unit will not withdraw.
A enemy unit will never project a ZOC if it has disruption of 3 or 4 so the friendly unit will not withdraw.
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The enemy unit must be projecting a ZOC or the friendly unit will never withdraw.
A enemy unit will never project a ZOC across a river ( at least I think so) so the friendly unit will not withdraw.
A enemy unit will never project a ZOC if it has disruption of 3 or 4 so the friendly unit will not withdraw.
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