New to the game - Basic Questions

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Courtenay
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Re: New to the game - Basic Questions

Post by Courtenay »

The 3-3 ship can go to the zero box of sea areas adjacent to its starting port, and then must stop.
11.4.2. MOVING NAVAL UNITS
[...]
HOW FAR UNITS CAN MOVE
A unit must stop moving when you have spent its entire movement allowance or it has reached the limit of its range, whichever happens first.
You spend 1 point of a unit’s range for each sea area and port it moves into.
You spend 1 point of a unit’s movement allowance for each sea area and port it moves into; if it starts the movement out of supply; if it starts the impulse in a port with naval units controlled by another major power; and for each point of the (unmodified) search number of the section you put the unit into.
Option 19: (In the presence of the enemy) It costs a surface naval unit 2 points of its movement allowance (not range) to enter a sea area that contains a CV (with a carrier plane), SCS, or aircraft unit, which is controlled by an unsurprised (see 15.0) major power it is at war with.
So the unit spends all three of its movement points reaching the zero box of the adjacent sea, and can't do anything from there.
I thought I knew how to play this game....
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Joseignacio
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Re: New to the game - Basic Questions

Post by Joseignacio »

Orm wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2024 5:41 pm
Centuur wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2024 1:56 pm RAW:

If you move a naval unit that is out of supply, subtract 1 from its
movement allowance (not range) and turn it face-down (or put a CP
used marker on it if it is a convoy point) when you finish its move
(even at sea).


And:

(In the presence of the enemy) It costs a surface naval
unit 2 points of its movement allowance (not range) to enter a sea
area that contains a CV (with a carrier plane), SCS or aircraft unit
controlled by an unsurprised (see 15.) major power it is at war with.
This does not apply (i.e. you pay normal costs) if, at the start of the
impulse, the sea area contained a friendly:
• CV with a carrier plane; or
• SCS; or
• aircraft unit.
It also doesn’t apply to a naval unit returning to base nor if the only
enemy units attempting to slow you down are aircraft during storm
or blizzard.


A 3 movement allowance therefore allows the OOS naval unit to move out of the Eastern Med, even when using the optional rule "In The Presence of the Enemy".

The range of the units are not reduced due to being OOS or using the optional rule.

No bug.
So, the TRS has 3 MP. -1 for OOS leaves 2 MP. The cost for entering he Eastern Mediterranean is 2 MP due to the enemy presence. 2 MP -2 MP leaves 0 MP. How can the TRS continue moving with no MP left?

xxxx

3 MP -1 (for OOS=) -2 (for presence) -> 0 MP for further movement.

xxxx

What am I missing?
I agree
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Joseignacio
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Re: New to the game - Basic Questions

Post by Joseignacio »

Centuur wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2024 1:56 pm RAW:

If you move a naval unit that is out of supply, subtract 1 from its
movement allowance (not range) and turn it face-down (or put a CP
used marker on it if it is a convoy point) when you finish its move
(even at sea).


And:

(In the presence of the enemy) It costs a surface naval
unit 2 points of its movement allowance (not range) to enter a sea
area that contains a CV (with a carrier plane), SCS or aircraft unit
controlled by an unsurprised (see 15.) major power it is at war with.
This does not apply (i.e. you pay normal costs) if, at the start of the
impulse, the sea area contained a friendly:
• CV with a carrier plane; or
• SCS; or
• aircraft unit.
It also doesn’t apply to a naval unit returning to base nor if the only
enemy units attempting to slow you down are aircraft during storm
or blizzard.


A 3 movement allowance therefore allows the OOS naval unit to move out of the Eastern Med, even when using the optional rule "In The Presence of the Enemy".

The range of the units are not reduced due to being OOS or using the optional rule.

No bug.
Range would allow, but MPs no. As it has been said, the ship would lose 1 for OOS and 2 in the Eastern Med and it needs 3 to get out of East Med and inside any other sea or port.
How far can units move?
A unit must stop moving when you have spent its entire movement allowance or it has reached the limit of its range, whichever happens first.

You spend 1 point of a unit’s range:

• for each sea area and port it moves into.

You spend 1 point of a unit’s movement allowance:

• for each sea area and port it moves into;
• if it starts the movement out of supply;
• if it starts the impulse in a port with naval units controlled by
another major power; and
• for each point of the (unmodifi ed) search number of the section
you put the unit into.
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Centuur
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Re: New to the game - Basic Questions

Post by Centuur »

Sorry. My mistake. Range would allow a move, but a 3 movement unit cannot leave the Eastern Med in the mentioned example, unless that unit is a SUB.
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rkr1958
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Re: New to the game - Basic Questions

Post by rkr1958 »

Need some clarification on the below situation by you rule's experts please!

(1) Doing some "wargaming" planning of my next allied move for my CF-3 AAR.
(2) Looking at 3 amphibious landings at locations shown below.
(3) Final odds and troop allocations will most likely differ, this was just taking a cursor look at the possibilities.
(4) The 3 locations are:
(a) Brest (combo amphibious from Bay of Biscay & overland blitz from Lorient).
(b) Occupied France 54,24 (combo amphibious from North Sea & overland blitz from Lorient).
(c) St-Malo (weak amphibious landing from North Sea).
(5) I take the blitz vs Occupied France 54,24 first. This blitz has 100% chance of breakthrough and no loss.
(6) So, I plan for the XXX armor corps to breakthrough and overrun the (4)(c) St-Malo invasion beach before conducting that landing.
(7) I would think this would automatically land the corps & division but MWIF goes on and processes this landing as a blitz.
(8) And what's even crazier is if a loss has to be taken it will let me take either the MIL or airborne div as the loss (not the armor).
(9) I'm hoping you rule's experts can unravel this for me.
(10) Thanks!
999-Wargame-question-overrun-of-landing-zone.png
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Joseignacio
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Re: New to the game - Basic Questions

Post by Joseignacio »

From the top of my head:

1 Cannot be a debarkation in St Malo because that phase already passed and it was not friendly controlled. You ordered an invasion afterwards so that's what you get. So there is fight (or shoud have been a cancelled invasion? never heard of that).

2 Don't know why it makes the invasion a blitz, that might be a bug because if the arm moves to the hex it cannot fight at that very hex, only overrun as it did. But it would not join the invading forces from inside that hex.

It would have if it had stopped a hex earlier and then joined the invasion attack from there. And then it would have been possible take losses with it.

3 Even though I dont know if that treatment was correct (overrunning and then invasion), what is clear to me is that the invading units should take the losses because the armor does not take part in the invasion, hence it cannot take losses.
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rkr1958
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Re: New to the game - Basic Questions

Post by rkr1958 »

Joseignacio wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:14 am From the top of my head:

1 Cannot be a debarkation in St Malo because that phase already passed and it was not friendly controlled. You ordered an invasion afterwards so that's what you get. So there is fight (or shoud have been a cancelled invasion? never heard of that).

2 Don't know why it makes the invasion a blitz, that might be a bug because if the arm moves to the hex it cannot fight at that very hex, only overrun as it did. But it would not join the invading forces from inside that hex.

It would have if it had stopped a hex earlier and then joined the invasion attack from there. And then it would have been possible take losses with it.

3 Even though I dont know if that treatment was correct (overrunning and then invasion), what is clear to me is that the invading units should take the losses because the armor does not take part in the invasion, hence it cannot take losses.
Thanks!
As a parallel, I had an overrun of an airborne drop hex before, if I remember correctly the airborne unit "automatically" landed. But I could be wrong. Also, land combat order matters. If a previous land combat and advance puts a flip unit out of supply then that unit defends at 1 or 3. So that indicates that the land combats are sequential and not simultaneous. Let me even add some more confusion. Forget about invasion. What if you had a blitz and an assault. The assault if vs a 1-strength inf div in open terrain. What happens if the blitz produces a breakthrough and the breakthrough is able to overrun the 1-str inf div?

It's bedtime ...
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Joseignacio
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Re: New to the game - Basic Questions

Post by Joseignacio »

Hi

Of course, I could be wrong, let's hear the rest of the veterans.

I don't think it is the same case, for example, of when an invading unit faces a hex on which the defender refuses to use the notional, but it may have some parallelism. Just to show another related situation.
In that case, there would be a free invasion but no breakthrough would be possible. However that would still not be the same because the hex would not be controlled by you before invasion unlike your example, it would be under enemy control but with a defense value of 0.

If your parallelism with the Airborne drop is correct, then I must be wrong, because it would be a similar case.

Combats are not simultaneous but a unit cannot fight twice in the same impulse. However the problem is that it seems to me that there should have been no combat in that hex, because you had controlled it earlier. Maybe you should have been able to debark, if I am wrong, but never a combat that included the ARM, so no blitz table.

Overruns are always at the movement. Most are made at the movement phase, but there exist the overrunning with the Advance after Combat, which is an exceptional move, out of the move phase. If you blitz a stack wether of 1 or 10 strength, and then you break through, you can overrun the next hex if you meet the conditions.

It is a similar case, IMO it comes first the combat that you select earlier:

1 If you select the attack that produces the B and overrun the div, then there is no longer the assault combat with the other units because the enemy is there no more.

2 If you select the assault first, then you have your assault combat and then you can move the unit that breaks through if there is enough stacking.
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Joseignacio
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Re: New to the game - Basic Questions

Post by Joseignacio »

I asked the question in a players' forum and this is the first anwer I get, and it makes sense. I will update if I get more.
Invading units are already debarked in the hex before declaring combats.
A breakthrough from an adjacent hex into the invasion hex would cancel the invasion combat, but after the attack sequence the attacker would then have to remove overstacking units, if any.
The invading units HAVE to end in the hex (or die)
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rkr1958
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Re: New to the game - Basic Questions

Post by rkr1958 »

Joseignacio wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:03 pm I asked the question in a players' forum and this is the first anwer I get, and it makes sense. I will update if I get more.
Invading units are already debarked in the hex before declaring combats.
A breakthrough from an adjacent hex into the invasion hex would cancel the invasion combat, but after the attack sequence the attacker would then have to remove overstacking units, if any.
The invading units HAVE to end in the hex (or die)
Jose - Thanks. I posted a similar question over at board geeks and got the following response from Bruce who's by any definition a WiF expert.
Bruce Jurin
Remember when you invade or paradrop, you put the attacking unit in the target hex. So be mindful of stacking. However, if you advance after combat on a blitz, I would assume that the paradropping or invading unit simply lands in the hex within the stacking limit.

I found this in the old FAQ:
You get a B result in land combat and could move into a hex where a combat is to follow (only possible with a notional being invaded / paradropped on), you:
(a) Move in for free making the paradrop / invasion obsolete
(b) Have to overrun the notional with the notional having whatever combat factors it has due to the declared paradrop / invasion
(c) Cannot move into the hex?


(a), it could mean you are overstacked though (after the landing) in which case some units may die. Date 29/11/2007
This confirms my instinct here.
Reference - https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/332666 ... s-invasion

Also, Bruce is doing an excellent CE (collectors edition, vassal) WiF solo AAR over there too that I finding very instructive and entertaining.
Last edited by rkr1958 on Mon Jul 01, 2024 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New to the game - Basic Questions

Post by Centuur »

rkr1958 wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 3:20 pm
Joseignacio wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:03 pm I asked the question in a players' forum and this is the first anwer I get, and it makes sense. I will update if I get more.
Invading units are already debarked in the hex before declaring combats.
A breakthrough from an adjacent hex into the invasion hex would cancel the invasion combat, but after the attack sequence the attacker would then have to remove overstacking units, if any.
The invading units HAVE to end in the hex (or die)
Jose - Thanks. I posted a similar question over at board geeks and got the following response from Bruce who's by any definition a WiF expert.
Bruce Jurin
Remember when you invade or paradrop, you put the attacking unit in the target hex. So be mindful of stacking. However, if you advance after combat on a blitz, I would assume that the paradropping or invading unit simply lands in the hex within the stacking limit.

I found this in the old FAQ:
You get a B result in land combat and could move into a hex where a combat is to follow (only possible with a notional being invaded / paradropped on), you:
(a) Move in for free making the paradrop / invasion obsolete
(b) Have to overrun the notional with the notional having whatever combat factors it has due to the declared paradrop / invasion
(c) Cannot move into the hex?


(a), it could mean you are overstacked though (after the landing) in which case some units may die. Date 29/11/2007
This confirms my instinct here.
Reference - https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/332666 ... s-invasion

Also, Bruce is doing an excellent CW WiF solo AAR over there too that I finding very instructive and entertaining.
The FAQ are correct here. If MWIF doesn't behave this way, that's a bug.
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rkr1958
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Re: New to the game - Basic Questions

Post by rkr1958 »

Centuur wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 4:31 pm
rkr1958 wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 3:20 pm
Joseignacio wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:03 pm I asked the question in a players' forum and this is the first anwer I get, and it makes sense. I will update if I get more.

Jose - Thanks. I posted a similar question over at board geeks and got the following response from Bruce who's by any definition a WiF expert.
Bruce Jurin
Remember when you invade or paradrop, you put the attacking unit in the target hex. So be mindful of stacking. However, if you advance after combat on a blitz, I would assume that the paradropping or invading unit simply lands in the hex within the stacking limit.

I found this in the old FAQ:



This confirms my instinct here.
Reference - https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/332666 ... s-invasion

Also, Bruce is doing an excellent CE WiF solo AAR over there too that I finding very instructive and entertaining.
The FAQ are correct here. If MWIF doesn't behave this way, that's a bug.
It's a bug then. Will report in the beta section when I get to the actual landings.

Also, meant to say Bruce was doing an excellent CE WiF AAR NOT CW WiF AAR. Meaning he's doing his solo AAR with the CE Vassal module.
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Joseignacio
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Re: New to the game - Basic Questions

Post by Joseignacio »

Just to make it clear (and not meaning in this case) Bruce is no doubt a great expert, which does not mean he is always right, like anyone else. I followed him in the Facebook WIF page, where I saw several answers to questions, with a weak reasoning to say the least, trying to justify clear errors of the rules.

On the other hand, he doesnt like being dissented, I guess that is why he left the Facebook page some time ago. IMO, too self assured to bend to other reasons when needed.
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Re: New to the game - Basic Questions

Post by rkr1958 »

Just wanted to confirm with you rules experts before posting the following as a bug in the beta tester forum.

(1) US forces in China are Nimitz HQ-I, Mtn corps & Arm marine div.
(2) CW has Blamey HQ-I & AUS inf corps.
(3) I wanted to rebase the B-17G from Hong Kong into China (proper).
(4) But MWIF keeps telling me that I can't because of FTC limits.
(5) Doesn't Nimitz with a reorg value 3 allow for himself and 3 other US units?
999-FTC-China-Question.png
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Re: New to the game - Basic Questions

Post by Orm »

Could you post a save so I can look further before answering?
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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Joseignacio
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Re: New to the game - Basic Questions

Post by Joseignacio »

rkr1958 wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 3:49 am Just wanted to confirm with you rules experts before posting the following as a bug in the beta tester forum.

(1) US forces in China are Nimitz HQ-I, Mtn corps & Arm marine div.
(2) CW has Blamey HQ-I & AUS inf corps.
(3) I wanted to rebase the B-17G from Hong Kong into China (proper).
(4) But MWIF keeps telling me that I can't because of FTC limits.
(5) Doesn't Nimitz with a reorg value 3 allow for himself and 3 other US units?

999-FTC-China-Question.png
The way you worded it, you are right. Ninitz allows for himself plus 3 more units.

The only questions would be whether there are more USA units that you may have not noticed or the reason is not FTC but out of air movements (be it because you read it wrong or because MWIF displayed the wrong message).

Else I understand it needs to be a bug. It could be just a normal bug, or maybe the game is wrongly counting the Aussies as within the FTC allowance of Nimitz... I guess that's why Orm would like a save. BTW, where is Blamey? Just out of curiosity.
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rkr1958
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Re: New to the game - Basic Questions

Post by rkr1958 »

Thanks guys. Here's a save. Jose, FYI the US took a super combine so they have unlimited air actions.
Attachments
FTC-China.zip
(1.6 MiB) Downloaded 5 times
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rkr1958
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Re: New to the game - Basic Questions

Post by rkr1958 »

rkr1958 wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2024 11:27 am Thanks guys. Here's a save. Jose, FYI the US took a super combine so they have unlimited air actions.
By the way, I just reloaded the game and MWIF is NOW letting me rebase the US air to China! WTF!?
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Joseignacio
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Re: New to the game - Basic Questions

Post by Joseignacio »

I cannot run it, because yours is a newer version. 7.0.0.7 or something, but it is not the first time that MWIF does something wrong and next time doing the same makes it right. For example putting units OOS unduly.
Captura de pantalla 2024-07-08 151803.png
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But since it works now, everybody is happy. :D
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rkr1958
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Re: New to the game - Basic Questions

Post by rkr1958 »

Jose, thanks! I've attached a file (version) that you should be able to open.
FTC-China-2.zip
(1.6 MiB) Downloaded 7 times
It gets even crazier, or maybe I'm just going crazy? MWIF let me rebase 2 planes into China. Now, isn't the US over their FTC limit?

Should I have been allowed to rebase the 2nd plane (a P-35)? Or is somehow the US using Blamey's FTC of 2?

01-AL-Asian-China-EOI.png
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