New to the game - Basic Questions

[paulderynck]

So, another question, not explicitely addressed in the RAW.

We can read:

13.7.1 Conquest
You can only conquer a home country or territory if you are at war with the major power or minor country that controls it. All conquest in a turn occurs simultaneously.
Minor countries never conquer anything. The home country or territory is instead conquered by the minor’s controlling major power (unless it is not at war, see 2.5).

So, imagine Yugoslavia conquers Albania and Germany conquers Yugoslavia.

Would Yugoslavia conquer Albania for it's allied Major e.g. France or for itself? It would seem that for France, no?
Or would YU have to surrender it's Albania hexes on their being conquered by GE? Dont think so but...
Would it be an incomplete or a complete conquest? It would depend on whether Albania can be a new HC, I guess.

Now choose a new home country for the units of the conquered home country. Conquered Commonwealth home countries can pick another Commonwealth home country (e.g. if Britain is conquered, you could pick Canada as the new home country for British units). Other conquered major power home countries (and Commonwealth if you want), can pick any aligned minor home country. Conquered minor countries can pick either any home country of their controlling major power or any home country that the minor country itself controls.

So, here the text is incongruent with the previous ruling, because now it does not require that the minor which will be the new home country of YU is Aligned, opposite to what we can read in the first quote, when it refers to incomplete conquest of minors.

There's no new home country except for incomplete conquest. Yugoslavia has no aligned countries to start with, so it is completely conquered. Yugoslavia's controlling major power would be the conqueror of Albania, which is also completely conquered.

[Orm]

So, imagine Yugoslavia conquers Albania and Germany conquers Yugoslavia.

Would Yugoslavia conquer Albania for it's allied Major e.g. France or for itself? It would seem that for France, no?
Or would YU have to surrender it's Albania hexes on their being conquered by GE? Dont think so but...

The most relevant rule for this is hidden under "control", and I cut it in below. Since Yugoslavia is entering Albania the MP controlling Yugoslavia must be at war with Italy. Thus the Albanian hexes captured by Yugoslavia becomes controlled by its controlling MP, France. Albania then becomes conquered by France, and all Albanian hexes becomes controlled by France, while the hexes in Yugoslavia becomes German controlled.

And, as previously stated, Yugoslavia is completely conquered.

Cut from RAC 2.5 Control
....
Note that even though major powers may control minor countries (see 9.8 & 13.7.1), it is the minors
themselves that control hexes in that minor. However, hexes taken from an enemy major power (or its controlled minors) are controlled by the major power taking them regardless of whether those hexes are taken by units of the major power or its controlled minors, unless the major powers are not at war with each other (in which case the hexes are controlled by the minor country taking them).
If a minor country controls enemy major power (or its controlled minors) hexes and the minor's controlling
major power comes to war with that major power, then those hexes immediately become controlled by the minor's
controlling major power.

[Joseignacio]

Thanks all, I was afraid that would be the case.

[Joseignacio]

So, another question, not explicitely addressed in the RAW.

We can read:

13.7.1 Conquest
You can only conquer a home country or territory if you are at war with the major power or minor country that controls it. All conquest in a turn occurs simultaneously.
Minor countries never conquer anything. The home country or territory is instead conquered by the minor’s controlling major power (unless it is not at war, see 2.5).

So, imagine Yugoslavia conquers Albania and Germany conquers Yugoslavia.

Would Yugoslavia conquer Albania for it's allied Major e.g. France or for itself? It would seem that for France, no?
Or would YU have to surrender it's Albania hexes on their being conquered by GE? Dont think so but...
Would it be an incomplete or a complete conquest? It would depend on whether Albania can be a new HC, I guess.

Now choose a new home country for the units of the conquered home country. Conquered Commonwealth home countries can pick another Commonwealth home country (e.g. if Britain is conquered, you could pick Canada as the new home country for British units). Other conquered major power home countries (and Commonwealth if you want), can pick any aligned minor home country. Conquered minor countries can pick either any home country of their controlling major power or any home country that the minor country itself controls.

So, here the text is incongruent with the previous ruling, because now it does not require that the minor which will be the new home country of YU is Aligned, opposite to what we can read in the first quote, when it refers to incomplete conquest of minors.

There's no new home country except for incomplete conquest. Yugoslavia has no aligned countries to start with, so it is completely conquered. Yugoslavia's controlling major power would be the conqueror of Albania, which is also completely conquered.

That was one of the points, the rules themselves say that any home country (so, aligned or conquered) is valid dor a minor to get a new home country, which is what is incongruent with the previoos quoted rules.

Conquered minor countries can pick either any home country of their controlling major power or any home country that the minor country itself controls.

But the final relevant matter seems to be whose was the control of AL, I was afraid it was FR according to the excerpts shown and it seems it is.

[Orm]

No, the rule is pretty clear that it must be a country that you have aligned in order to avoid complete conquest. See below.

Cut from RAC 13.7.1 Conquest
....
Complete conquest
When a major power or minor country no longer controls its own or any aligned home country, it has been completely conquered. Thereafter, it is at peace with everyone it was at war with.

[Joseignacio]

Not that it matters, since as you said YU doesnt get Albania as a possible subsidiary HC.

But RAW IS not congruent, as I showed earlier. But since you prefer to quote RAC, which is ok cause we are talking of MWIF:

Here is the incongruence again, It says it needs to be aligned in the first quote, and the same rule of Incomplete Conquest several paragraphs later says that for minors they only need to have another minor that they control.

Sin título.png (195.69 KiB) Viewed 607 times

There are minors who may have countries not aligned but conquered at the beginning of the game depending of the scenario. Some minor countries start the Global war aligned and other conquered , like in the case of Italy Albania is aligned but Ethiopia is conquered, according to the scenario book. And, yes, I know IT is a major.

Sin título2.png (84.61 KiB) Viewed 607 times

[paulderynck]

RAC or RAW, no matter, what you quote is under the heading of Incomplete Conquest which as defined in the rules is inapplicable to Yugoslavia.

[Joseignacio]

RAC or RAW, no matter, what you quote is under the heading of Incomplete Conquest which as defined in the rules is inapplicable to Yugoslavia.

Taking a paragraph out of context here, and another there, to support an inaccurate argument is not a new thing with you.

ROLFMAO is all you deserve as a comment.

[paulderynck]

ROLFMAO is all you deserve as a comment.

Undoubtedly your brain also came off when that happened.

[Joseignacio]

I will make an effort that you obviously do not deserve. Accusing someone of manipulating through cutting/pasting paragraphs out of context is a disgrace on your part, just shows a mean soul.

Quite the opposite, I post the excerpts because it is no use to reproduce 2 or 3 or more pages of rules to explain what my opinion is based on.

And lately, considering that some people like you may be less sharp... I put them in the sequencial order and include the epigraph where to locate them (and see them in context).



And now, can you stop spoiling the thread with your personal phobias?

[paulderynck]

I too will make an effort since this is a public forum and I believe I am still allowed to provide input to it.

Setting aside a moment the claim of incongruence, do you deny that the citations below that you provided both come from the section in the rules with the heading "Incomplete Conquest"?

If you do, then there is no point discussing it further since you then deny what the rules of the game state. If you don't, then the question becomes: is Yugoslavia completely or incompletely conquered? Since the condition for complete conquest is "when a major power or minor country no longer controls its own or any aligned home country", then it must be completely conquered and thus that is the section of the rules which pertain to this case.

[paulderynck]

As far as the claim the rule is not congruent, it may appear so, but one must ask how does a minor country control another minor country. The only way is if the two are aligned, since at the beginning of the Conquest section, the rule states: "Minor countries never conquer anything."

[Joseignacio]

I too will make an effort since this is a public forum and I believe I am still allowed to provide input to it.

Setting aside a moment the claim of incongruence, do you deny that the citations below that you provided both come from the section in the rules with the heading "Incomplete Conquest"?

If you do, then there is no point discussing it further since you then deny what the rules of the game state. If you don't, then the question becomes: is Yugoslavia completely or incompletely conquered? Since the condition for complete conquest is "when a major power or minor country no longer controls its own or any aligned home country", then it must be completely conquered and thus that is the section of the rules which pertain to this case.

How would I claim otherwise, if I myself (and for those less gifted) quote in the first excerpt "Incomplete Conquest" and between that and the next one I write "and in the same epigraph, but next page"... So I am establishing clearly I am quoting from the same rules section.

Absurd questioning.

Second: What I am pointing out is the incongruence that when explaining when a country is completely conquered, the rules state:

"COMPLETE CONQUEST

When a major power or minor country no longer controls its own or any aligned home country, it has been completely conquered. "

and previously in the Incomplete Conquest it says:

"INCOMPLETE CONQUEST

Merely conquering a major power or minor country doesn’t mean it is out of the game. That only happens when it is completely conquered (see below). "

Up to here, everything is correct. However, the same Incomplete Conquest rule later says:

"Now choose a new home country for the units of the conquered home country. Conquered Commonwealth home countries can pick another Commonwealth home country (e.g. if Britain is conquered, you could pick Canada as the new
home country for British units).

Other conquered major power home countries (and Commonwealth if you want), can pick any aligned minor home country. Conquered minor countries can pick either any home country of their controlling major power or any home country that the minor country itself controls."

So, here the rule is specifying that Major powers need to select an ALIGNED MINOR as Home Country, and however, Minor Countries can select ANY MINOR COUNTRY THAT THE MINOR COUNTRY ITSELF CONTROLS.


Can you see now the contradiction between the rule that says it is Complete Conquest only if you have an Aligned Minor to go to, and the rule that specifies that if you are a minor country yo can be Incompletely Conquered if you have ANY MINOR (not necessarily Aligned) under your control? Or I need to use more colors?

I know it is subtle, but it is true, and most of all, if you dont get it, it is not a reason for bashing me. I had to spend some extra time to answer you in detail. Please, be an adult and respect the thread.

PD: I said earlier that regarding a minor country's conquests you were right (I was not 100% sure, that's why I asked) and the rest of the matter was irrelevant, I quote myself:

But the final relevant matter seems to be whose was the control of AL, I was afraid it was FR according to the excerpts shown and it seems it is.

[Orm]

The way the rules goes regarding this is like the following steps:

1) Yugoslavia follows the rules for conquest. Go to conquest rules and implement them.

2) The first paragraph of incomplete conquest sends us to check if Yugoslavia is completely conquered. Go to point 3).
Merely conquering a major power or minor country doesn’t mean it is out of the game. That only happens
when it is completely conquered (see below).

3) Yugoslavia is completely conquered because it controls no aligned country. Go to step 5) (Ignore step 4 for Yugoslavia)
When a major power or minor country no longer controls its own or any aligned home country, it has been
completely conquered.

4) If is not a complete conquest, then it is a incomplete conquest, go back to that rule and inplement it. (Not relevant for Yugoslavia so this step is skipped.)

5) Implement complete conquest for Yugoslavia.

6) Continue with the next step of end of turn.

[Joseignacio]

That is all fine and well...

... and then what is this distinction for?

Other conquered major power home countries (and Commonwealth if you want), can pick any aligned minor home country. Conquered minor countries can pick either any home country of their controlling major power or any home country that the minor country itself controls."

And that is why I say they are contradictory.

If a country can only be incompletely conquered if it controls aligned minor countries, why a minor has a different treatment and can select a controlled conquered country as a new HC?

[Orm]

That is all fine and well...

... and then what is this distinction for?

Other conquered major power home countries (and Commonwealth if you want), can pick any aligned minor home country. Conquered minor countries can pick either any home country of their controlling major power or any home country that the minor country itself controls."

And that is why I say they are contradictory.

If a country can only be incompletely conquered if it controls aligned minor countries, why a minor has a different treatment and can select a controlled conquered country as a new HC?

Not really. The rule author just removed a superfluous word. A minor country can not conquer other minors. Thus the word "aligned" in not needed when the only ones they control are aligned home countries.

The point being that a minor can only have an aligned minor (or a MP) as a new home country even though the rule doesn't specify it..

[Joseignacio]

Then they didnt have to have made any specific difference between Majors and Minors. All of them could only have a new HC in aligned countries, the distinction is unnecessary.

Instead of removing a superfluous word he wrote a superfluous half paragraph. It could have been written like this:

"Other conquered home countries (and Commonwealth if you want), can pick any aligned minor home country."

[Orm]

Except that there is a difference between Major Powers and Minor countries when it comes to picking new home countries. The minor country can always pick its controlling MP as a new home country.

Anyway. MWIF is programmed according to the rules in my humble opinion. I will not engage in a project to improve how the rules are written. The meaning of this rule is clear enough for me.

With that said. I am annoyed with the wording of plenty of rules, and they have caused me a lot of misunderstandings over the years. And I have had plenty of heated rules discussions as well. Edit: And I've been very wrong on multiple occasions.

Thank you.

[Courtenay]

An incompletely conquered minor country can choose as its new home country its controlling major power's home country. A major power obviously does not have this option, since it does not have a controlling major power. (CW has special rules, since it has multiple home countries.)

[Mayhemizer_slith]

Hi all

Notionals are my weakspot in rules and here comes a question about them.

Germany DoW on Netherlands, takes combined and invades div from sea to Rotterdam when INF defends Amsterdam. I'm testing something and it works, just making sure it's not a bug.

One INF joins attack to Rotterdam and 3 other units attack Amsterdam. Some shore bombardment to both hexes and ground support to Amsterdam.

If I attack first Amsterdam, then Rotterdam loses 1 notional. Is that correct? At the start Rotterdam has 2 notionals (1 base, 1 city, 1 ZOC and -1 surprise). If I take Amsterdam first, then Rotterdam has only 1 notional (no more ZOC). Is that correct?

Attacks would be +17,5 and +18, which is nice so that CW can't join the party.