War in China - House rules for more historical simulation

[Jagdtiger14]

quote:ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14 I'm seeing a couple of defensive mistakes made SE of Sian which is a help to the Japs. So that we all can learn, what was the defensive mistakes made SE of Sian?

My pleasure! And my apologies to any one individual player. My purpose is to debate the Communist Chinese first strategy here.

AAR: News from the front - 4 player game.

As I mentioned, the Chinese set up is fairly standard. My first issue with the Chinese is their reaction when the Jap set up is revealed and it is obvious they are making a push for the north. The main NAT body in the center is hunkered down facing off vs one, then later two out of supply Jap units, while the main body of the Jap effort begins with the encirclement and taking of Chengchow. Chengchow is taken on the Axis impulse 11 of SO'39...plenty of time for the NATs to react northwards (see page 4 of AAR).

The key to the defense of Sian from the south are the Tsinling mountain range (the 4 hex spur jutting eastwards). These mountains are not being defended. By early ND'39 it is obvious the NATs in the south will be cut off from any assistance (page 5 of AAR). The key mountain hex to finally fight for is the hex SW of Tungkwan. All these hexes were given to the Japs for free. The Japs needed only take the one mountain hex adjacent to Sian and the writing is on the wall from there.

My point here is that this is not a valid AAR example to the Communist Chinese "problem" being expressed.


AAR: Rematch 4 player game. Much the same as above. The NAT main body is even further to the south in the "center"...the Tsinling mountains have been abandoned other than adjacent to Sian, and to make matters worse, no NAT help in the far north which lead to Jap runners into the back field (note: the above AAR has at least one unit in the Mountains north of the Communists).

[Majorball68]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

quote:ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14 I'm seeing a couple of defensive mistakes made SE of Sian which is a help to the Japs. So that we all can learn, what was the defensive mistakes made SE of Sian?

My pleasure! And my apologies to any one individual player. My purpose is to debate the Communist Chinese first strategy here.

AAR: News from the front - 4 player game.

As I mentioned, the Chinese set up is fairly standard. My first issue with the Chinese is their reaction when the Jap set up is revealed and it is obvious they are making a push for the north. The main NAT body in the center is hunkered down facing off vs one, then later two out of supply Jap units, while the main body of the Jap effort begins with the encirclement and taking of Chengchow. Chengchow is taken on the Axis impulse 11 of SO'39...plenty of time for the NATs to react northwards (see page 4 of AAR).

The key to the defense of Sian from the south are the Tsinling mountain range (the 4 hex spur jutting eastwards). These mountains are not being defended. By early ND'39 it is obvious the NATs in the south will be cut off from any assistance (page 5 of AAR). The key mountain hex to finally fight for is the hex SW of Tungkwan. All these hexes were given to the Japs for free. The Japs needed only take the one mountain hex adjacent to Sian and the writing is on the wall from there.

My point here is that this is not a valid AAR example to the Communist Chinese "problem" being expressed.


AAR: Rematch 4 player game. Much the same as above. The NAT main body is even further to the south in the "center"...the Tsinling mountains have been abandoned other than adjacent to Sian, and to make matters worse, no NAT help in the far north which lead to Jap runners into the back field (note: the above AAR has at least one unit in the Mountains north of the Communists).

See how you go defending Sian Sept/Oct 39 when you don't draw the 7-3 infantry and the weather is terrible every other impulse except last Axis impulse. Lanchow can be taken or near taken in a double move by a Division 4mp which can move through mountains in bad in bad weather and the desert hexes stay clear. Meanwhile impulse 2 you start moving nationalist Chinese to support the Commies only to have them stuck in Mountains, OOS unable to move in the bad weather for the rest of the turn. When the turn does end about impulse 13 Sept/Oct 39 the commies are near done and Sian becomes impossible to hold. The enemy of the Chinese Commies is bad weather.

[Jagdtiger14]

See how you go defending Sian Sept/Oct 39 when you don't draw the 7-3 infantry and the weather is terrible every other impulse except last Axis impulse. Lanchow can be taken or near taken in a double move by a Division 4mp which can move through mountains in bad in bad weather and the desert hexes stay clear. Meanwhile impulse 2 you start moving nationalist Chinese to support the Commies only to have them stuck in Mountains, OOS unable to move in the bad weather for the rest of the turn. When the turn does end about impulse 13 Sept/Oct 39 the commies are near done and Sian becomes impossible to hold. The enemy of the Chinese Commies is bad weather.

Playing with extra Chinese cities? If so, supply wont be much of a problem? I think you are complaining about a specific occurance ? I am in no way saying that the Communist Chinese should never be taken out, of course it will happen...and there are probably numerous ways it can happen. But I think with good Chinese play, it should happen less than 50%. With your luck (and mine), it probably happens 75%?;-)

[Centuur]

I don't agree on the fact that the Chinese are always going to go get conquered if the Japanese go for the Communists first.
In most games in which the Commies are being put under a huge amount of pressure, there is no response by Uncle Joe on the Manchurian border at all. In some games, there is even a neutrality pact being agreed on at start of the game.

To me, the solution is clear: whenever the Japanese capture Sian, the Red army should be in position to declare war on Japan. They should do so and force the Japanese to send troops and planes to Manchuria.

If I'm playing the Japanese, I would agree every time Uncle Joe is stupid enough to offer a neutrality pact. After that's done, I would go all out against the Chicomm, because I've just got two years to conquer China without Uncle Joe getting involved.

And there's another thing which the Chinese can do too, to upset things. And that's to send the Communist CAV south and take over Chengtu to be sure to have a communist city in the south in which Communist troops will arrive...

[Jagdtiger14]

Agree with Centuur. From the initial set up, the Soviets should also keep an eye on Japan to see if they are ready with Peacekeepers for Persia.

[brian brian]

Japan’s best Return on Investment is from fighting the Russians. That ROI doubles if Russia activates Persia for them without the CW taking the ports.

If a hard drive vs. Mao automatically brought in the Russians, all the better for the US entry swing; good upsides for the whole Axis team. Japan’s best play is to knock Mao as far back as possible anyway.


China’s best play is to have the Nationalists hold Chengchow with 3 units and keep both CAV on Chiang’s northern flank as well. These must not be lost due to their mobility in the mountains and are fairly safe there as long as they remain stacked together. Chengchow + lurking CAV have to be dealt with for Japan to seriously drive on towards Mao. The big variable is how much clear weather there is in S/O 39, particularly if Japan rolls well vs. Chengchow and gets clear weather afterwards. The ChiComms nearly automatically bulk up over the first winter due to the structure of the China force pool.

In the south, the Nationalists need to retreat some, _before_ the slow moving Japanese units can mass perfectly for an attack.

An even bigger key is that when there is a retreat path, China should pick the Blitz table. A “/R” result is a loss for the Japanese as they have likely used air, artillery, and HQ assets to get it. Even on a hex as valuable as Changsha, the Nationalists should pick blitz and try and live to fight another day and build out their entire land unit force pool.

But gamers gonna game and it is more fun to try and get the attacker to roll the magic 14. It’s almost like playing some ancient Asian strategy game or something. Go figure.

[Jagdtiger14]

Japan’s best Return on Investment is from fighting the Russians. That ROI doubles if Russia activates Persia for them without the CW taking the ports.

As USSR I would not DOW Persia if the Japs were ready with Peacekeepers (corps, HQ, cp's). These units would have to be on standby and not used against the Chinese. If Peacekeepers are not ready, and the entire Jap land force is either on the offensive vs China and blocking elsewhere, USSR will have gained 3 oil. Then USSR can start to build up on western Manchuria, fast div's elsewhere and force the Japs to counter this...taking away units in their effort vs China.

Bottom line is: Japan is a paper tiger. Japan needs every bit of production it can muster without losing units, and saving oil all at the same time. Even under perfect results/conditions, and also depending on Allied strategy, Japan will probably get crushed. Now if Japan goes after China, the best result it can get is to take Lan Chow and Chunking, and survive the war...these are the goals if undertaking a campaign in China. Anything else by the end of the game is worthless and a waste of time and resources. I personally do not think a campaign in China is worth it. The paper game using the Asian map is a different thing as everything is condensed using the same units.

I agree with everything else you wrote...perhaps I might debate the value of USSR taking Manchuria and its resources vs US entry hit if Japan has to give it up knocking Mao back (how far?).

[brian brian]

All Japan really needs in reserve for possible use in Persia is a face-up TRS at all times in Canton and some CPs there. Canton always has to have a non divisional unit garrisoning it anyway, vs. either low odds Nationalist gambles or similar from newly created PARTisan units. Also very useful is a division on Hainan, which also must be garrisoned anyway, and one SCS there. That unit could potentially break a lackadaisical Russian effort vs. Teheran on some die rolls.

Anything else Japan eventually needs in the Persian Gulf can be echeloned in over multiple impulses faster than Zhukov can do anything about it. Canton garrison can be quickly replaced from elsewhere.

Probably as important in terms of potential needs vs. Russia is not getting the Japanese MARines mired deep in the mountains of China. Use them to garrison Korea and Stalin will notice. Japan can pivot into war in Manchuria fairly easily as it operates on interior lines; the Russians are on exterior lines. Manchurian TERR units are also extremely mobile inside Manchuria. If Japan seeks a USSR attack, the MAR units can be moved inland carefully with rail access and re-org capacity in mind.

All of such calculations are totally different if Germany attacks Spain in the 2nd half of 1940 though.

[peskpesk]

MWIF optional house rules:

Pre USSR-Japan pact trade agreement.

Description:
Until a USSR- Japanese pact is sign the following rules are imposed
• Japan must trade two none oil resources to USSR
• USSR must trade Japan one oil resource and one none oil resource
• If the optimal Siberians rule is in play, reduce the number of resources that Japan must trade by one for each Siberian unit that leaves the Asian map.
• If Zhukov leaves the Asian map reduce the number of resources that Japan must trade by one.
• If Japan has fewer than 5 points of garrison rating in Manchuria/Korea reduce the number of none oil resources that USSR must trade by one.
• If Terauchi leaves Manchuria/Korea reduce the number of oil resources that USSR must trade by one.

The pre pact trade agreement rules are cancelled if one of the following apply
• Japan is at war with USA
• Japan is at war with the USSR
• USSR - Japanese pact is signed
• USSR is at war with Germany



Reason:
Many Japanese players refrain from garrisoning Manchuria and instead bring the troops into china and tipping the balance there heavy in Japanese favour.
Also, Many USSR players do the same in Siberia, relocating the troops to other locations.
Its possible, but highly unhistorical.
These options keeps the players honest and give them trouble if they try to remove too many units from the area.

Historical Note:
The Japanese command conflict was mostly about which choice of strategy Japan should choose for the future. Hokushin-ron ,"Northern Expansion Doctrine" which stated that Manchuria and Siberia were Japan's sphere of interest and that the potential value to Japan for economic and territorial expansion. It was widely support within the Imperial Japanese Army
Nanshin-ron, "Southern Expansion Doctrine" , which regarded Southeast Asia and the Pacific Islands as Japan's political and economic sphere It was widely support within the Imperial Japanese Navy
The Army lost, due to its failures in Soviet–Japanese border conflict and in the ongoing Second Sino-Japanese War. Japan made the shift towards Nanshin-ron.
Due to the recent Soviet–Japanese border conflict both sides was weary about the other, for the world it came as chocking news that Japan and the USSR signed the Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact in April 1941, the treaty would allow both Japan and the Soviet Union to avoid risk of fighting on multiple fronts
and freeing Japan for preparations for the Pacific War. This had a direct bearing on the Battle of Moscow, where the absence of a high Japanese threat enabled the Soviets to move large forces from Siberia and throw them into the fighting against the Germans.

[paulderynck]

What defines "the Asian map" in MWiF?

[peskpesk]

Here is a example of the Border in MWIF

[rkr1958]

For me I like to keep things simple. Well, not really, but I'm exploring a simpler approach based on the WiF scenarios. The chart below was built from the at-start forces in USSR Asia and Korea/Manchuria for several WiF scenarios. Here's my house rule for how to use the below chart.

Soviet-Japanese Tension
(1) The Soviet Union and Japanese Empire will maintain an uneasy peace throughout the game and until the August/September 1945 turn.
(2) The Soviets must maintain a defensive garrison (see table) with units placed within 3-hexes of any hex of Japanese controlled Manchuria and/or Korea.
(3) Japan must maintain a defensive garrison with units placed in Manchuria and/or Korea.
(4) Both the Soviets and Japanese are free to swap units out within their respective garrisons.
(5) Garrison requirements are specified in the table for the latest turn prior or equal to the current turn and only have to be met at the end of each turn.
(6) Ignore pact chits listed in table and are included for completeness only.
(7) If One or Both sides fail to satisfy their garrison requirements through honest error/miscalculation at the end of a given turn then this will be corrected as quickly as possible during the following turn.

I complement this house rule with Chinese attack weakness. Otherwise, play with the rules as coded.

Soviet-Japanese Garrison Table.

Note. Values inside the brackets, (e.g., [+1 inf]), indicate the change in the required garrison from the previous epoch.