Supply question

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TeaLeaf
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Supply question

Post by TeaLeaf »

Hey guys just a quick supply-question to verify I am not cheating my current solo-playthrough.
Please check the screenshot below. As you can see the Argentinian 'lancers' CAV is marked as 'isolated'.
ARG.jpg
ARG.jpg (1.3 MiB) Viewed 606 times
This is incorrect, so I will manually reorg this unit after each move (tamper with the GAM-file), or, if OOS, after each turn.

Based on the following quote from the WIFCE-rulebook (2.4.2 tracing supply);
A secondary supply source for a unit is:
(...)
* the capital of a major power or minor country conquered by the
unit’s major power or a major power the unit co-operates with.
I'd say the Colombian capital La Paz (occupied by the CAV) qualifies as a secondary supply source for them as stated in the quoted rule (since the CAV co-operates with the major power that conquered Bolivia)...
And since La Paz also can trace back to a primary supply source (any city in Argentina, including Buenos Aires), the CAV should definately not be 'Isolated', most likely not even be OOS! (but... who am I to assume I got the WiF-rules correctly ;) ).
Angeldust2
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Re: Supply question

Post by Angeldust2 »

I think, the optional rule "Reorganisation of isolated units" has been intentionally crippled by the designer in the latest version 5.0.0.1, in order to save processing time. I think, MWIF will flag every unit with a supply path > 10 hexes as isolated, when this rule is enabled. So RAW ask for a basic supply path of unlimited lenghth, but for MWIF 5.0.0.1 a unit must be < 10 hexes to a supply source in order to be not considered as isolated.
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Joseignacio
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Re: Supply question

Post by Joseignacio »

Yes, but in this case, if I did understand it right, he is on a secondary supply source, that he says can trace to a primary.

However, if you have just taken the city, or it was this turn, you have not conquered the country yet, nor you control the minor country (not just the capital or the railroad), so you would get supply next turn, after end of turn phase, IMO.

I would say this is a correct situation. MWIF is a b*tch to have understood fully.

A secondary supply source for a unit is:
 an HQ the unit co-operates with (see 18.1); or
the capital city of a minor country controlled by the unit’s major power; or
the capital city of a major power, or a minor country, conquered by the unit’s major power, or by a major power the unit co-operates with.
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TeaLeaf
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Re: Supply question

Post by TeaLeaf »

Joseignacio wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:02 pm Yes, but in this case, if I did understand it right, he is on a secondary supply source, that he says can trace to a primary.

However, if you have just taken the city, or it was this turn, you have not conquered the country yet, nor you control the minor country (not just the capital or the railroad), so you would get supply next turn, after end of turn phase, IMO.

I would say this is a correct situation. MWIF is a b*tch to have understood fully.

A secondary supply source for a unit is:
 an HQ the unit co-operates with (see 18.1); or
the capital city of a minor country controlled by the unit’s major power; or
the capital city of a major power, or a minor country, conquered by the unit’s major power, or by a major power the unit co-operates with.
Let me follow this thought... See what comes out.
-Last turn the CAV indeed took La Paz, and it became disorganized in doing that.
-Final reorganisation then happened and the CAV should have reorganized, because it is not isolated (although it is indeed still OOS at that time, good catch).
-Conquest then happened, so La Paz became secondary supply source.
-This turn, the CAV should have been in supply and organized, but it was isolated and disorganised (I manually organised it by changing unit status in the GAM-file and then I took the screenshot).

Hmmm, so what you say seems plausible to me but still the CAV should be in supply this turn, not isolated ;) .

Actually, now that I think of it, exact same thing happened in Colombia, but handled correctly by MWiF:
Last turn, the Panama-CAV took Bogota, the Colombian Capital, becoming disorganised while doing so.
During final reorganisation phase it reorged, and then the USA conquered Colombia through these Panamese horsemen.
This turn, the Panamese CAV is organised and in supply, in Bogota.
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TeaLeaf
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Re: Supply question

Post by TeaLeaf »

Angeldust2 wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 7:00 pm I think, the optional rule "Reorganisation of isolated units" has been intentionally crippled by the designer in the latest version 5.0.0.1, in order to save processing time. I think, MWIF will flag every unit with a supply path > 10 hexes as isolated, when this rule is enabled. So RAW ask for a basic supply path of unlimited lenghth, but for MWIF 5.0.0.1 a unit must be < 10 hexes to a supply source in order to be not considered as isolated.
Hmmm I hope not, but I'll keep an eye out for this... it could explain some strange isolation situations I've encountered.
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Courtenay
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Re: Supply question

Post by Courtenay »

Ii am reasonably sure there is a limit to the supply length for isolated reorganization, but that it is lot bigger than 10 hexes. What it is I don't know, but I remember it exists. If it were only 10 hexes, German units around Moscow would be isolated.
I thought I knew how to play this game....
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Joseignacio
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Re: Supply question

Post by Joseignacio »

TeaLeaf wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:51 pm
Angeldust2 wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 7:00 pm I think, the optional rule "Reorganisation of isolated units" has been intentionally crippled by the designer in the latest version 5.0.0.1, in order to save processing time. I think, MWIF will flag every unit with a supply path > 10 hexes as isolated, when this rule is enabled. So RAW ask for a basic supply path of unlimited lenghth, but for MWIF 5.0.0.1 a unit must be < 10 hexes to a supply source in order to be not considered as isolated.
Hmmm I hope not, but I'll keep an eye out for this... it could explain some strange isolation situations I've encountered.
Ii am reasonably sure there is a limit to the supply length for isolated reorganization, but that it is lot bigger than 10 hexes. What it is I don't know, but I remember it exists. If it were only 10 hexes, German units around Moscow would be isolated.
I read somewhere that there was going to be a limit to supply checking for EoT Reorg which was like 20 or 50 hexes, but later somewhere else some Beta Tester said it would be 10 hexes, I believe too. And in my games it seems to be about 10 hexes as well, since.
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rkr1958
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Re: Supply question

Post by rkr1958 »

The problem, as I see it with the implementation (i.e., coding) of the isolated reorg optional rule is that isolation is checked continuously throughout the turn whenever supply is checked. Of course, supply needs to be checked/verified throughout the turn but isolated reorganization only applies (i.e., needs to be verified) at the end of the turn during the reorg phase. If that were the case I believe that we could accept the long processing times with longer paths once per turn versus the much shorter paths 100's of times (or more) during a turn.
Ronnie
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Joseignacio
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Re: Supply question

Post by Joseignacio »

Very good idea
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Centuur
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Re: Supply question

Post by Centuur »

Agreed.
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Courtenay
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Re: Supply question

Post by Courtenay »

One other change that could be made: When one moves an HQ, MWiF checks supply twice, once when you pick the HQ up, and once when you put it down. I do not understand why the first check is necessary; I can't see how the supply status of any unit while the HQ is in midair can affect anything.
I thought I knew how to play this game....
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TeaLeaf
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Re: Supply question

Post by TeaLeaf »

rkr1958 wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 6:17 pm The problem, as I see it with the implementation (i.e., coding) of the isolated reorg optional rule is that isolation is checked continuously throughout the turn whenever supply is checked. Of course, supply needs to be checked/verified throughout the turn but isolated reorganization only applies (i.e., needs to be verified) at the end of the turn during the reorg phase. If that were the case I believe that we could accept the long processing times with longer paths once per turn versus the much shorter paths 100's of times (or more) during a turn.
+1
Courtenay wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 2:58 pm One other change that could be made: When one moves an HQ, MWiF checks supply twice, once when you pick the HQ up, and once when you put it down. I do not understand why the first check is necessary; I can't see how the supply status of any unit while the HQ is in midair can affect anything.
It does help us to see all the units that depend on this particular HQ for supply, so it may influence your decision to move it or where to move it ;). So do we want that, or do we want shorter calculations...
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Orm
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Re: Supply question

Post by Orm »

rkr1958 wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 6:17 pm The problem, as I see it with the implementation (i.e., coding) of the isolated reorg optional rule is that isolation is checked continuously throughout the turn whenever supply is checked. Of course, supply needs to be checked/verified throughout the turn but isolated reorganization only applies (i.e., needs to be verified) at the end of the turn during the reorg phase. If that were the case I believe that we could accept the long processing times with longer paths once per turn versus the much shorter paths 100's of times (or more) during a turn.
Very good idea indeed.

So good that it was suggested, and supported, by testers long before the release. And rejected for reasons I disagree with (and not sure if I completely understand).

Whit that said, now might be a good time to get that decision reversed.

Also. I suggest that in addition to the isolated reorganization is only counted at the EOT there is a function "check for isolated reorganization - warning: This takes long time" that the player can activate when he so desire.
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
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Joseignacio
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Re: Supply question

Post by Joseignacio »

Would be nice
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