Rules Experts Needed. Shattered Units Destroyed Because of No Retreat.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Balbo is also in France so it's not impossible he helped get units into Vichy and then moved out.

I looked at the saved gave and recreated the die rolls to get the B results.

Checking FTC before the combat (this can be done using the Relationships form - select the Italy/Vichy France cell and then click on the Show FTC at the bottom of the form), the program reports that there are 2 HQs with a total of 4 Reorg points in Vichy France. And that there are 6 non-HQ units in Vichy France - the 6th is under a German unit outside Marseilles.

Given the B result, not converted to a Retreat, Graziani is 'retreated' first and is destroyed due having to pass through a Vichy controlled hex. The mountain unit is 'retreated' second and is likewise destroyed.

I see no bug here - although the situation and the rules concerning it are rather opaque.

[Joseignacio]

Forgive me if I am saying a nonsense, ..., but how is it possible that Graziani is destroyed for having to pass through a Vichy controlled hex?

First, FTC shouldn't apply considering Vichy is at war and hostile, and Second, FTC is for entering a Country, not for moving from an hex to another within the country.

Following the line of examples, it would be like retreating 2 CW units in France, where there were 4 reorg points in 2 HQs but 5 units inside France in total (maybe having entered with the help of another HQ which now is out or destroyed).

No matter that they move over French units they do not cooperate with, or end in French hexes, not CW ones, they would not be destroyed.

[eouellet]

The FTC applies only to the Italians, as they are not the ones who created Vichy, but are friendly yet non-cooperating.

You are correct about the country issue. The rule is:

18.2 A major power or minor country unit that ends any step in the home country of a friendly major power it doesn’t co-operate with is destroyed unless:
 it started the step there; or
 it started the step elsewhere and the unit satisfies the foreign troop commitment limit.

The retreat of Graziani and the Mountain unit towards a Vichy hex should not trigger anything because they were both already in a Vichy controlled hex at start, both starting and retreating hexes being inside Vichy home country.

The thorny issue is why there were 6 non-HQ Italian units in Vichy while HQ FTC has a limit of 4. They are a couple reasons possible (another HQ was destroyed prior with non-HQ units units already in Vichy; a corps was split in 2 divisions once already in Vichy; a bug the system did not check for FTC in prior step) but it should not change the status of Italian units starting a step there.

[Joseignacio]

I agree with Brian here. The key rules are:

17.4 Access to Vichy territory
However, if an Allied unit enters Metropolitan Vichy France, Vichy France becomes hostile to that unit's controlling major power. [That’s how Vichy becomes hostile]

If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits. [If Vichy becomes hostile, that’s how the installing power, and only that one, can enter into Vichy]

17.4 Vichy French collapse
If an Allied unit enters Metropolitan Vichy France before it has collapsed:
• Axis units can enter Metropolitan Vichy France without causing a collapse;
[That only says Axis unit can go into Vichy without causing a collapse, but does not say how Axis can enter Vichy]

18.1 Who can co-operate
10. Vichy French units do not co-operate with any major power.
[Can’t be more clear]

23. Index & Glossary
Friendly (a major power or minor country on your side)

18.2 Foreign troop commitments
A major power or minor country unit that ends any step in the home country of a friendly major power it doesn’t co-operate with is destroyed unless:
• it started the step there; or
• it started the step elsewhere and the unit satisfies the foreign troop commitment limit.
[That’s how normally a power can enter another power’s territory on the same side when they do not cooperate]

As a work around until the bug is fixed, implementing manually the FTC for Italy (for most games anyway) would be the right to do, i.e. not allowing more Italian units to enter and end their movement in Metropolitan Vichy territory than allowed by the FTC.

Can you explain what I set in bold? What do you mean for "how can Axis units enter Vichy'"? I mean, I guess there will still need to be FTC for the power that did not create Vichy (although IMO the specific rules for Vichy superscede the regular ones where they are antagonistic, so maybe no), but still, this seems to leave it clear that all the Axis is allowed to move in. Freely or with FTC, but Italians could.

[eouellet]

Rule 17.4 is only about a particular condition regarding the collapse of Vichy France. It does not discuss anything else. If the allies are in Metropolitan Vichy France first, then axis units entering Vichy France are not causing its collapse. That's it. This does not have any implications for other rules, including the FTC, otherwise it would have been stated.