2023 WIF AI Progress Report

[rkr1958]

Basically you have four choices:

1. Play WIF using MWIF and adapt the workarounds to MWIF
2. Play WIF using VASSAL
3. Play WIF in your garage
4. Don't play WIF at all

I choose 1.

YMMV

I don't own a garage, so there goes point 3.
I don't like Vassal, because it doesn't enforce the rules, so that makes point 2 pointless.
I don't like not to play WIF, so that makes point 4 out of the question.
That leaves me with point 1.

(#3 -> No). I do own WIF Collectors Editor Deluxe. And probably could find space for all the maps & tables. However; I also have a Whippet and so does my son, who visits with his 2 to 3 times a week. These two guys (Finn & Shelby) would "clear" the maps in no time, so 3 is out for me.
Shelby & Finn (left to right).

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Some fun they had in the room where I would likely played the board version if I wanted.

Finn-Shelby-Having-Fun.jpg (297.97 KiB) Viewed 880 times

(#4 -> HECK NO!). (M)WiF is by far the most realistic strategic simulation of WW2 that I've played and I've been playing wargames since 1972! No other game that I've played handles combine arms (land, sea, air) as elegantly and realistically at the strategic level as (M)WIF.

(#2 -> ?). If that was all I had I would. But I've been spoiled by MWIF enforcing the rules, not to mention the beautiful counters, maps and (mostly) interfaces. One (minor) thing that bugs me about both the board and vassal version is that ship type (e.g., BB, CV, CA, CL, CVL) is not explicit in the counters. Though I do know the type of most named ships, it's nice to have it at first glance as MWIF does it. In WIF you have to use first cycle costs to distinguish BBs (2 BPs) vs CAs (1 BP).

(#1 -> BIG YES). The way I look at it, whatever way you decide to play WIF (board, vassal or MWIF) it is a MAJOR time commitment and isn't for the faint of heart. A full global war scenario can takes months or even years to complete. There's a lot of computation and things that players have to keep with board and vassal games. I estimate the workarounds that I have to make in MWIF to be but a fraction of that so they (workarounds) don't bother me.

Also, not to short change my other two dogs of war!

Cally (10 years old, Bichon Frise).

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Susie (17 years old, Bichon Frise) with Finn (2 years). FYI, Shelby is 3 1/2 years old.

Susie-Finn.jpg (224.07 KiB) Viewed 875 times

[Zovs]

No dogs here both I have 5 cats and anyone who has played board wargames will know what that means… lol

[RFalvo69]

Basically you have four choices:

1. Play WIF using MWIF and adapt the workarounds to MWIF
2. Play WIF using VASSAL
3. Play WIF in your garage
4. Don't play WIF at all

I choose 1.

YMMV

I don't own a garage, so there goes point 3.
I don't like Vassal, because it doesn't enforce the rules, so that makes point 2 pointless.
I don't like not to play WIF, so that makes point 4 out of the question.
That leaves me with point 1.

Until 2013 I played WiF using 2 and 3 (2 doesn't bother me because I'm actually able to learn the rules of a tabletop game. We are learning "Axis Empires UE" right now, "Red Strike" being the next).

After 2013 I played WiF using 2 and 3 with 150 Euro less in my wallet.

[RFalvo69]

(#1 -> BIG YES). The way I look at it, whatever way you decide to play WIF (board, vassal or MWIF) it is a MAJOR time commitment and isn't for the faint of heart. A full global war scenario can takes months or even years to complete.

Months, yes. Years, no. Since the late 1990s I played more than a dozen of full global war scenarios - including two with the latest CE edition. What you need is a group of 3-4 friends committed to the game (because with a gaming group all becomes easier and faster).

I'm not alone. Just ask on BGG and you will find many other WiF players to whom play the global campaign is the norm. Some of them, thanks to VASSAL, even play multiple campaigns at the time. Heck, when they had the WiF Live Tournaments they played the game in little more that a long week-end (eight hours a day admittedly, but still...)

True, of course you can play MFiW and be nailed by a crippling bug six months in. Or discover that, due to another bug, a rule was always applied wrongly. This can happen in the tabletop version, true, but you can fix it by simply... using the correct rule from that moment onwards. Like a correct convoys placement - something that Matrix is incredibly unable to get right even if it is a bug right there in the setup since 2013. Just sayin'.

[BTW, I really don't see how Matrix can hope to create a bugless AI for two whole scenarios when in eleven years they weren't able to create an AI capable of putting a convoy in Mene Grande. But they are "supported" anyway, so failure is an option, I guess.]

[Courtenay]

No dogs here both I have 5 cats and anyone who has played board wargames will know what that means… lol

The first game of WiF I played was in a friend's basement. He had two tables. One was a large one which we put the European map on. The other was an ordinary card table. He put a large lucite sheet on top of it, and we put the Pacific map on top of that. Everything worked fine for quite a while (except for the ridiculous number of rules mistakes we made) until one day his cat got into the basement. Being a cat, it was curious what was on the table, so it jumped up onto the lucite sheet where it overhung the card table. Of course the lucite sheet flipped over off the table. This taught us the origin of the word catastrophe.

[lucliu]

1 and I believe Steve will finally fix the known bugs!

[Joseignacio]

1 and I believe Steve will finally fix the known bugs!

Maybe if he lasts 100 years, lol

[rkr1958]

(#1 -> BIG YES). The way I look at it, whatever way you decide to play WIF (board, vassal or MWIF) it is a MAJOR time commitment and isn't for the faint of heart. A full global war scenario can takes months or even years to complete.

Months, yes. Years, no.

1st Example: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 8#p4434538
Initial post was Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:08 am and is still active (latest post was Mon Jan 01, 2024 7:10 pm). That's 4 months shy of 5 years.

2nd Example: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 400457#top

Yes, in spite of the countless problems we have faced, we have been able to crawl to J/A '45, maybe I unveiled the secret too soon, we wanted to surprise the forum, dont think many people ended so late. I made it only a couple of times even in my 20 or 30 board table games.

And we did it 100% netplay, with it's specific bugs all along. It only took about 3 years.

Thanks

Maybe it's just MWIF folks?

[RFalvo69]

(#1 -> BIG YES). The way I look at it, whatever way you decide to play WIF (board, vassal or MWIF) it is a MAJOR time commitment and isn't for the faint of heart. A full global war scenario can takes months or even years to complete.

Months, yes. Years, no.

1st Example: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 8#p4434538
Initial post was Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:08 am and is still active (latest post was Mon Jan 01, 2024 7:10 pm). That's 4 months shy of 5 years.

2nd Example: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 400457#top

Yes, in spite of the countless problems we have faced, we have been able to crawl to J/A '45

There are people who like to run the Marathon and people who like to run the Marathon with a broken knee. I'm among the former - but to each one his own.

[No, I mean... pointing to two games completed in YEARS - and MWiF should even help you, the irony - when committed players can finish the tabletop version once a year, or maybe twice if it is "their" game?! What are we even saying here???]

[Zovs]

There are also some people who enjoy something for what its worth and those that are bitter and have an axe to grind.

I get it that you spent $100 and feel disenfranchised or "ripped off" but there is others that don't feel the same way as you do about the game. So just move on.

BTW your $100 is nothing compared to my $299 that I never got reimbursed for nor ever saw the light of day of the HMS game Total War (we bitterly call it Total Waste) which was supposed to replace Fire in the East and Scorched Earth when HMS took over GRD back in the mid to late 1990s and still till this day have not produced a functioning game.

So from personal experience its better to let your bitterness go before it poisons your soul.

[Joseignacio]

It usually takes about 1 year, give or take a couple of months for the groups I have been in, to play Global War over the table. Except in conventions.

It is normal, I believe, considering we meet weekly for 4-5 hours, and the game needs about 200 hours depending of the knowledge of the players, and their temperament. Plus, you have to count on holidays like Christmas, Easter or summer holidays of each member, which usually overlap or just be on a different month from others (In Spain and I believe most of Europe you get like a month a year, usually in summer or/and Christmas).

I understand that I have been running with a broken knee, and believe me I have cursed much more than I usually do, besides of complaining here often, and also usually having to resort to editing the files (and learning how to do it, which was not a minor matter for me).

However, the game implements rules (the programmed rules at least) unless there is a bug, and that helps a lot. I believe one of the reasons why we were so slow is because of reloading once and again and stopping for edition of files, etc..

So, I admit it was not efficient and, however, when the game ran bug free, I estimated that I could manage a Side in the very same time I managed one MP at a board session, the game helped you so much when offering scraps, buying production, showing interceptors or bombers in range, reminding phases without the typical forgetfulness of one or some , ..., that i stay by my assert that this game is a brute jewel that has been left uncarved... and sadly it will keep on this way.

NB: The cut of the range for checking supply that was made in the latter versions is a shame, and the number of isupply ssues has skyrocketed. A very bad decision, in order to go for the IA developement and have not so long supply calculation delays.

[paulderynck]

So from personal experience its better to let your bitterness go before it poisons your soul.

Too late. He shows up once a year to sTROLL through this forum.

[ReconPathFinder]

When this game came out, I became a father..........while I waited for it to finish I became a grandfather. I suspect my great grandkids will inherit this game.

[paulderynck]

When this game came out, I became a father..........while I waited for it to finish I became a grandfather. I suspect my great grandkids will inherit this game.

Quite an accomplishment for a 10 year old, or did he/she have an older sibling?

[warspite1]

(BTW, check that thread if you want to see yourself, six years ago, vigorously defending this trainwreck ).

warspite1

Lol. I guess you still don't understand the meaning of certain words eh? "Vigourously defending this trainwreck"? No I can't see how you came to that conclusion given what I actually wrote in that thread.

But whatever, I'm not going to respond further to any comment you make on this subject so feel free to have the last word - which is clearly so important to you.

[RFalvo69]

So from personal experience its better to let your bitterness go before it poisons your soul.

Too late. He shows up once a year to sTROLL through this forum.

I actually show up once a year to see if the AI finally managed to find Mene Grande

[RFalvo69]

There are also some people who enjoy something for what its worth and those that are bitter and have an axe to grind.

I don't have an axe to grind, mostly because the money for the axe went into buying this. It was $150 plus shipping. And I moved on six years ago. What didn't move is the state of the game - and the mindset of those still defending it.

"Some people enjoy it". That's not the point. The point is the moral hazard. I told this six years ago and my mind never changed. If I accept this, I spit on the work of all those people who strive to diligently put out a working game and to support it sometimes years after it was published.

Do you want a practical example? Schwerpunkt Games published WWII Europe seven years ago and the game, technically, it is still unfinished. However, it came with tons of finished scenarios (some of them requiring days or weeks to be finished), a working AI, all the options available from the beginning and a working MP. While Ron Dockal took more time than anticipated to finish his magum opus, there has been enough to eat in the meanwhile that made the wait worth it (not to mention how he added a lot of fixes and tweaks to the main design by listening to the forum's feedback). I never regretted that buying.

Here? ERutins made a post titled State of the Game and Future Plans, as of November 2017. What did we got of those "future plans"? Hot air.

As I said more than once, I would have liked to see the meeting when Matrix said "MWiF is ready to be published!" - eleven years ago.

[eouellet]

Sorry, a bit late on this one, as I just noticed this thread.

Thank you to Erik Rutins for providing some update on what is going, especially for those not involved in the AI beta testing.

A full update to the 2017 post about the future plans would have been good, but it is enough to figure out the rest of the plan. Russian AIO at an acceptable level by March, and the same for the German AIO in six months for the Barbarossa scenario. Then, the Guadalcanal scenario. This last objective will certainly require a fair bit of time as the naval AI is not developed yet, and can be arguably be described as equally complex as the land AI, if not more. This should bring us well into 2025. The last part of the update states essentially after the Guadalcanal Japanese AIO we will see. This is disappointing, as it does not show any commitment for doing the two single theater scenarios, or to revamp the convoy/production form. I just hope that all the bugs that were found in the last 2 years will be addressed.

[Angeldust2]

Hi eouellet,

I support your initiative to highlight the 2017 post about future plans very much. I agree, that thread should be revisited and revitalised, as it laid out the route to take in the future by both developer and publisher of the game. So all stakeholders in the game can check, where do we stand now, seven years after? What about the milestones and goals identified as most important? What is still missing?

I like very much the list of topics you miss the most and rank higher than severely limited AI for introductory senario:
- single map scenarios
- convoy/production form
- bug solving

I would add
- few optional rules missing

[Angeldust2]

eouellet,

I remember you tried to create playable one-map scenarios by using some workarounds and houserules. How successful have you been at that time?

Would you be interested to join a community effort to make MWIF even better and more complete using an external app? You can follow these efforts currently in
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 4&start=60