Build order v16

[sveint]

What does everyone produce since the latest patch?

I'll get started.

Germany
Breakthrough armor x2
Interceptor x2
Ground support x2
Infantry (lots)
Optionals/variants: landing craft, submarines

Italy
Submarine x2
AA x4
Mountain infantry (lots)

UK
Interceptor
Escort x5
Shipyard x5
AA x2
Infantry (lots)
Optionals/variants: too many to detail

France
Interceptor
Infantry (lots)
Optionals/variants: Costal defense x3, to extend the Maginot line a bit

USA
Shipyard x20
Merchant marine (lots)

USSR
Rifle corps (lots and lots and lots)

[redrum68]

Interesting. Actually pretty different from what I usually build (wonders whether I'm not focusing on the right things).

Right now I still think a strong BEF in France is the best approach so build order until France falls is something like this:

Germany
Heavy armor x a few
Interceptor x 1-2 (if you expect to face a strong BEF)
Mech x a few (if you expect to face a strong BEF)
Landing craft and/or submarines (try to max out docks when possible)

Italy
Heavy armor x a few
Submarines or naval bombers x a few (if you want to contest the Med)

UK
Heavy armor x a few
Interceptor x a few
Infantry (lots)

France
Infantry (lots)

USA
Shipyard (lots)
Merchant marine (lots)
Escorts (lots)

USSR
Rifle corps (lots)

[stjeand]

Germany
2 Heavy Armor
2 Interceptors
2 Mech
2 Ground Support
A large/small infantry corps every turn possible after initial...
LC mixed in just in case.
Handful of supply trucks for paratroopers and other emergencies.

Italy
Mech
Mtn
Infantry lots

UK
(Ever changing)
1 Heavy or Interceptor, depends upon mood.
2 Interceptors
Lots of Infantry
1 Mech
LC

France
Heavy (Not now after rule change so will switch to Interceptor)
Infantry

US
1 Heavy Armor
1 Ground Support

Canada
Escorts galore

USSR
Rifle after rifle...
Mix in an armor or mech just to have variety
1 Mech

[sveint]

I think the new build order for the UK is :

Air superiority (lots) and watch the Germans grind to a halt in France

[stjeand]

Thank you for teaching me. It his HORRIBLE for the Germans to lose all their air in France.
I dislike it. Not sure how to remedy it though.
Germany can't build enough fighters to keep up.

As UK and France I think I can muster 10 easily possibly 12 air superiority groups. The Germans just can't fight that, not and have armor and troops.

[sveint]

Looks like Germany air builds needs to be :
Interceptor x3
Tac air x1

Forget Ground support, they die too easily to UK fighters

[redrum68]

If UK spends all its production on some combination of land/air and sends it all to France then Germany is gonna struggle. How much land vs air I think is up for debate at this point.

[sveint]

Air rules supreme (as it should be). Air superiority wins now.

[MagicMissile]

Is it really that bad? Well I am playing both of you maybe someone will show me. But if it is true the game is broken and I am not even sure how to fix it.

Possibly the game have to go more like World in flames with a limited number of units of each type in the force pool each year
instead of the open ended system we have now.

Also the allies have another ace. The fact that you can hold the production off board means the Germans wont even know if you build loads of land or air units so the axis wont even know what to counter until it is too late. You can bring out whatever you built in feb/march and still be in position in time and by then it will be too late for the Germans to react.

/MM

[sveint]

It's not that bad. But Germany can't just walk over France anymore, they have to fight for it. Which leads to inexperienced players getting stuck in France (I see it quite often, I pick up lots of games with random opponents).

[MagicMissile]

Ok well that sounds ok I guess. Still main problem I guess is that France should be a piece of cake and the USSR not, now it feels almost the other way around

/MM

[stjeand]

I wonder if the Germans instead focus on armor and mech and just slam into France...with minimal air assist.
Could do a test...maybe 3 armor and 3 mech (mainly for the tanks and retreat effect they have, since all of France will be in garrison mode)

The issue with the 3rd German interceptor is that it does not arrive until late June if I remember...maybe I am off by a turn.

I REALLY wish that when you built something it will tell you turns as well as days. I really like days...but I can't figure out turns when I build them and they are in queue.

In my current Game with sveint I built the same amount of air he did...he did a French, I did a UK fighter...
I think the Germans have lost 240 air at the moment...and they are 2 hexes into France. It is crazy...to build that back is 2K+ in points.

When I played sveint as the Germans a few games ago...that happened but I had been spending all my points to repair them and keep pushing in France...and did not take France until mid/end September...then noticed...no armor in the queue...air all at half strength...there was no way to invade Russia since when I finally built my first armor it would not arrive until mid May...so 4 armor and 2 mech to invade the USSR...NOT going to get far.

[redrum68]

Out of curiosity, when the Germans lost 240 air hits, how much did the UK/France lose?

My theory is the Germans have to kind of assume worst case scenarios that the UK can do a max BEF commitment with either:
1. Building as many air units as they can and just whatever ground units they start with plus maybe a few more inf
2. Building as many ground units as they can
3. Some mix of the 2

Which means Germany probably needs to either build a few fighters to contest a max UK air build or ignore air and just go all ground and only use their air sparingly.

[stjeand]

Out of curiosity, when the Germans lost 240 air hits, how much did the UK/France lose?

My theory is the Germans have to kind of assume worst case scenarios that the UK can do a max BEF commitment with either:
1. Building as many air units as they can and just whatever ground units they start with plus maybe a few more inf
2. Building as many ground units as they can
3. Some mix of the 2

Which means Germany probably needs to either build a few fighters to contest a max UK air build or ignore air and just go all ground and only use their air sparingly.

The UK and France lose more...BUT keep in mind...France is throw away...they are there just to drain Germany. They should not "win"...just slow and cost.

Air Superiority takes a LONG time to build...so even if the Germans build say 3...one is not arriving until June or July IF they build their 2 armor which in my eyes is required.
This in turn means IF you wanted to build mech you can not. Not a show stopper but Infantry does not make other infantry retreat like Mech and Amor do...the Mech bonus is they build fast.

In my three games against sveint, a 4th is starting as we are testing France...

First game me as AXIS they lost over 200 air and over 300 ground. They took France but in September. They had ZERO units in the build queue...air was at 50% strength and many land unit were pretty beat up...
When I looked at what was required to be ready for Barbarossa...and the PP I had...I could build 1 armor in time for Barbarosa...so there was no chance to attack. Germans surrendered...but could have fought on with no real chance.

Second game me as AXIS...lost less air as I did not bother flying as much...but about the same in ground...honestly forget. Game was able to continue because I had to stop repairing units and build some...and was able to invade the UK and Africa...Now the Allies are in big trouble...UK is nearly gone, Axis have 100% oil for all their countries due to owning Persia and Iraq.

Third game me As Allies...losses were worse. UK build 3 air superiority and as sveint said in another post he was not managing his air well...Axis losses were over 330 air and close in ground...Paris had yet to fall and it was August...Axis units were worn out and nothing was in the build queue due to all the repairs required...


NOW those three games were hopefully anomalies but both of us focused on a heavy air war.
We are starting new games testing out tactics to see is there a better way.

As you say...maybe Germany forgoes air and does all ground...save air for quick hits.

BUT there are other things that are occurring that we are looking into and it is rough for the Allies.
That is a future discussion.

JUST be very cautious is all I can say...