Aircraft numbers

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

one of my pbem games is in mid December 1943. We are trading 40 to 50 fighter losses a day over Burma. As Japan i currently have about 4,600 operational, about 1,200 in reserve and am building about 1,200 per month.

My units are flying Ki-84a and Ki-44c. The allies are flying P-40N5, F6F-3 Hellcat and P-47D2

is this normal? or crazy? are those numbers good? bad? i don't really have anything to go on.

should i get some of my A6M5c or N1K2-J in the fray. my Ki-84r should be available in about a month

any help would be appreciated.

[btd64]

The skills on both sides might be pretty even. Try getting a couple of squadrons with your best pilots and planes together....GP

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

The skills on both sides might be pretty even. Try getting a couple of squadrons with your best pilots and planes together....GP

thanks bt, i'll try. looks like i have over 400 army pilots with over 80 exp. i'll start there.

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

I'm a little surprised and disappointed that this didn't generate any other responses. Oh well. I tried.

[RangerJoe]

If you are trading planes over your bases, you will lose fewer pilots. You will also have fewer losses from damaged aircraft not making it back to base. You can adjust your production as needed, the Allies can not. In a PDU on game, you both have advantages and disadvantages. Your advantage is that you can produce the best possible aircraft for your needs while the Allies can not. In a PDU off game, you would have to essentially produce every aircraft to a certain extent.

But I do agree with producing the best fighters and then putting your best pilots to counter the Allies. Remember, you do not have to fight sweeps, just the bombers. You can use AAA to your advantage for that along with a LRCAP over his bomber bases. Then pop your fighters in as desired and then move them out, damaged ones moved out by rail. There is a way to overstrengthen fighter units with both aircraft and pilots, do so as needed.

[Yaab]

one of my pbem games is in mid December 1943. We are trading 40 to 50 fighter losses a day over Burma. As Japan i currently have about 4,600 operational, about 1,200 in reserve and am building about 1,200 per month.

My units are flying Ki-84a and Ki-44c. The allies are flying P-40N5, F6F-3 Hellcat and P-47D2

is this normal? or crazy? are those numbers good? bad? i don't really have anything to go on.

should i get some of my A6M5c or N1K2-J in the fray. my Ki-84r should be available in about a month

any help would be appreciated.

You got no responses because you did not state what the problem was. Loss ratio? Pilot losses? Aircraft production? All I know you lose 50 fighters a day, but you don't say how many of those losses are Japanese.

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

one of my pbem games is in mid December 1943. We are trading 40 to 50 fighter losses a day over Burma. As Japan i currently have about 4,600 operational, about 1,200 in reserve and am building about 1,200 per month.

My units are flying Ki-84a and Ki-44c. The allies are flying P-40N5, F6F-3 Hellcat and P-47D2

is this normal? or crazy? are those numbers good? bad? i don't really have anything to go on.

should i get some of my A6M5c or N1K2-J in the fray. my Ki-84r should be available in about a month

any help would be appreciated.

You got no responses because you did not state what the problem was. Loss ratio? Pilot losses? Aircraft production? All I know you lose 50 fighters a day, but you don't say how many of those losses are Japanese.

Hi Yaab,
thanks for the response. I meant that each side is losing 40-50 fighters a day. I have never played the allies so i have no idea what that means to them. I only know what is happening from my side. I don't have any experience of the game from either side beyond march of '44 so i don't know what the end game will look like. I've read AARs but there is not a lot of detail about total aircraft left available - just a lot of battle recaps. I just thought that somebody that had been through several games to the end would have an idea if i am achieving anything with whilttling down the allied air force or if i will be hopelessly outnumbered eventually so that i am really just wasting my time. I really don't have any idea.

[BBfanboy]

In the famous game that 'broke' the air model (it didn't, it just revealed its limitations) Greyjoy and his IJ opponent had thousands of aircraft operating in the same battles off the Japanese coast. The issue was that the game engine only allowed a few hundred interactions between CAP and strike forces/escorts when thousands were required to realistically keep the massive strikes from overwhelming the carrier CAP.
But that was, IIRC, a PDU ON game. I think you said yours was PDU off? I don't know enough about the economy under that situation but if it allows you to expand factories (and only restricts upgrade paths) you should be able to produce lots of aircraft - but maybe not very effective ones by game end.

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

In the famous game that 'broke' the air model (it didn't, it just revealed its limitations) Greyjoy and his IJ opponent had thousands of aircraft operating in the same battles off the Japanese coast. The issue was that the game engine only allowed a few hundred interactions between CAP and strike forces/escorts when thousands were required to realistically keep the massive strikes from overwhelming the carrier CAP.
But that was, IIRC, a PDU ON game. I think you said yours was PDU off? I don't know enough about the economy under that situation but if it allows you to expand factories (and only restricts upgrade paths) you should be able to produce lots of aircraft - but maybe not very effective ones by game end.

Hi BB,
i should have said it is PDU on. This is one of my 1st PBEMs so my a/c r&D was dreadfully planned and executed. i have George 2 and Frank A now, Frank R is a month away but i'm afraid Sam, George 5, Ki-83 and the rest are pretty far off. In more recent PBEMs i'd have Sams by now.

[RangerJoe]

In the famous game that 'broke' the air model (it didn't, it just revealed its limitations) Greyjoy and his IJ opponent had thousands of aircraft operating in the same battles off the Japanese coast. The issue was that the game engine only allowed a few hundred interactions between CAP and strike forces/escorts when thousands were required to realistically keep the massive strikes from overwhelming the carrier CAP.
But that was, IIRC, a PDU ON game. I think you said yours was PDU off? I don't know enough about the economy under that situation but if it allows you to expand factories (and only restricts upgrade paths) you should be able to produce lots of aircraft - but maybe not very effective ones by game end.

Hi BB,
i should have said it is PDU on. This is one of my 1st PBEMs so my a/c r&D was dreadfully planned and executed. i have George 2 and Frank A now, Frank R is a month away but i'm afraid Sam, George 5, Ki-83 and the rest are pretty far off. In more recent PBEMs i'd have Sams by now.

Well, with PDU on you can pick the best aircraft to build for your needs. Your pilots however must be protected, especially your naval pilots. If you still have your aircraft carriers and wan to use them, you want to have your best fighters with your best pilots available. So if I were you, I would concentrate on using your Army air units for defensive purposes. You will need to pick your battles carefully.

If you can, even a few bombers on night air base attacks can do some damage including the possibility of increase the fatigue and decreasing the morale levels of the enemy air units.

If you want some ideas, pm me.

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

In the famous game that 'broke' the air model (it didn't, it just revealed its limitations) Greyjoy and his IJ opponent had thousands of aircraft operating in the same battles off the Japanese coast. The issue was that the game engine only allowed a few hundred interactions between CAP and strike forces/escorts when thousands were required to realistically keep the massive strikes from overwhelming the carrier CAP.
But that was, IIRC, a PDU ON game. I think you said yours was PDU off? I don't know enough about the economy under that situation but if it allows you to expand factories (and only restricts upgrade paths) you should be able to produce lots of aircraft - but maybe not very effective ones by game end.

Hi BB,
i should have said it is PDU on. This is one of my 1st PBEMs so my a/c r&D was dreadfully planned and executed. i have George 2 and Frank A now, Frank R is a month away but i'm afraid Sam, George 5, Ki-83 and the rest are pretty far off. In more recent PBEMs i'd have Sams by now.

Well, with PDU on you can pick the best aircraft to build for your needs. Your pilots however must be protected, especially your naval pilots. If you still have your aircraft carriers and wan to use them, you want to have your best fighters with your best pilots available. So if I were you, I would concentrate on using your Army air units for defensive purposes. You will need to pick your battles carefully.

If you can, even a few bombers on night air base attacks can do some damage including the possibility of increase the fatigue and decreasing the morale levels of the enemy air units.

If you want some ideas, pm me.

Hi RJ,
thank you. I'm building only George 2 and KI-84a now. KI-84r coming soon. Research slow Sam, ki83 and george 5. I'm lucky to have only lost Kaga and 2 light carriers. So i have 11 CVs, 4CVLs and 4 CVEs at sea right now. The allies have lost 9 big CVs. i'm glad you said to save them my naval because that's what i am doing. Using mostly IJA fighters with a few old IJN planes with lower rated pilots just for fill in numbers at times. I always fight on the defensive therby hopefully saving more pilots. the allies decimated my bomber force with a few combination day and night bombing raids that negated my railroading them out. But they are almost rebuilt now. I'm flying mostly out of Rangoon (9) Touongou (9) and a number of (7) airbases but he's got sizeable land forces at Pegu trying to cut off burma.

[RangerJoe]

Well, if his navy is not near Pegu then you can run a lot of bombardment missions in one night and really wreck his ground forces. But don't let him find out where they are going using signal intelligence.

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

Hi RJ,
thanks, but the allies have a lot of surface units in the area and ever since mid '43 my surface units end up very poorly vs theirs.

[Maallon]

Hey Yamaguchi,
you can open the scenario as Allies and lookup the replacement rates for the fighters mentioned, if you haven't already done so.
In my DBB-C Scen 28 game the replacement rates per month are as follows:
P-40N5: 55
F6F-3 Hellcat: 130
P-47D2: 56
With a total of 241 fighter planes per month for those three models. So if you are indeed destroying 40-50 Allied fighters per day, you are destroying roughly 1/5 of his monthly production per day. Needless to say that this is unsustainable for the Allies. The example is admittedly academic, but it is a good enough estimate. 40-50 Allied fighter losses per day is by no means a small amount.

Some things that came to mind as I read the thread:
- Not sure how you count the losses, but the "Aircraft Losses" report is overly optimistic and Allied air-frames are tough. So maybe he is loosing less planes than you expect.
- Being able to trade fighter casualties at a 1:1 ratio as Japan during December '43 is probably a good sign. It could be better, but it also could be much, much worse.
- Morale is a very important factor for air combat and can be easily brought down by bombing or bombarding his airfields, even during the night if necessary. It also has the side effect that he needs to divert fighter squadrons for CAP duties.
- Air combat is mostly a numbers game, particularly if pilot and plane capabilities are somewhat equal.
- Mixing low SR rating fighters with high SR rating fighters, as you do, can be a sound tactic to keep operational readiness up. This is especially important combined with the previous point.
- The Ki-84r is only a marginal upgrade to the Ki-84a (At least in Scen 28), it will likely not turn the tides.
- All in all, if the information you have provided is accurate, it sounds to me that the current situation in the air is in your favor.

[Sardaukar]

As said, if you are having close to 1:1 losses vs. Allies in Dec 1943, you are doing pretty well.

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

Hey Yamaguchi,
you can open the scenario as Allies and lookup the replacement rates for the fighters mentioned, if you haven't already done so.
In my DBB-C Scen 28 game the replacement rates per month are as follows:
P-40N5: 55
F6F-3 Hellcat: 130
P-47D2: 56
With a total of 241 fighter planes per month for those three models. So if you are indeed destroying 40-50 Allied fighters per day, you are destroying roughly 1/5 of his monthly production per day. Needless to say that this is unsustainable for the Allies. The example is admittedly academic, but it is a good enough estimate. 40-50 Allied fighter losses per day is by no means a small amount.

Some things that came to mind as I read the thread:
- Not sure how you count the losses, but the "Aircraft Losses" report is overly optimistic and Allied air-frames are tough. So maybe he is loosing less planes than you expect.
- Being able to trade fighter casualties at a 1:1 ratio as Japan during December '43 is probably a good sign. It could be better, but it also could be much, much worse.
- Morale is a very important factor for air combat and can be easily brought down by bombing or bombarding his airfields, even during the night if necessary. It also has the side effect that he needs to divert fighter squadrons for CAP duties.
- Air combat is mostly a numbers game, particularly if pilot and plane capabilities are somewhat equal.
- Mixing low SR rating fighters with high SR rating fighters, as you do, can be a sound tactic to keep operational readiness up. This is especially important combined with the previous point.
- The Ki-84r is only a marginal upgrade to the Ki-84a (At least in Scen 28), it will likely not turn the tides.
- All in all, if the information you have provided is accurate, it sounds to me that the current situation in the air is in your favor.

Lots of good stuff here, thanks.

I've never opened the editor so i will go try to figure that out.
I'm thinking the numbers are probably similar.
I don't seem to have as much trouble with the P40s.
I'm an idiot as i forgot about the fog of war and was just going by the combat reports and info screen.
All of my leaders have inspiration levels above 80. I'm willing to sacrifice aggressiveness for morale.
All of my Frank squadrons are filled with 80+ exp pilots but attrition is starting to kick in a little.
Tojo iic are all 70+ exp. I run some Oscars too down low but they seem worthless.
I've got a few size 9 fields and the rest are 4-6. i keep them only on rail lines.
Most of my army air HQs are here so good maintenance.

Totals through 12/28/43:
P38J - 16
F6F3 - 427
P40N5- 299
p47D2- 492
P38H- 153
F4u-1 162
F4F-4 606
P-51A 29
P-40N1 37
P40K 492
P-40E 398
P-40B 34
P-400 81
P39D 294
P-38G 123
etc...

[Maallon]

You don't need the editor for this. Just open the game and start a new game, with the scenario you are playing, against the Japanese AI. The information you are looking for is in the Intel screen(hotkey: i)->Aircraft Replacement Rates.
The Replacement Rate column indicates how many planes per month the Allies will get through off-map production.
The Production Rate column indicates how many planes per month they will get through on-map factories.
(Contrary to Japan, the Allies cannot increase their factories)

The values given are average values, as there are dice rolls involved every turn.
So they can get slightly less or more planes per month. Alfred stated this somewhere in the forum.

Even with FoW, it seems that your opponent lost quite a bit of P-47s and F6Fs already.
But even so, the thing with the Allies is that they will get many more fighters coming '44 and '45.
It's good that you can thin their current pilot and plane pools and now seems a good opportunity to do so.
But if it were me, I wouldn't keep this up until the last dying breath. You will need some good pilots for the next years to come, too.

If you want to know how many planes the Allies get in total during the campaign(on average), including reinforcement squadrons, you can extract that information easier in Tracker. But you will likely need a new instance of Tracker for the Allied perspective.

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

You don't need the editor for this. Just open the game and start a new game, with the scenario you are playing, against the Japanese AI. The information you are looking for is in the Intel screen(hotkey: i)->Aircraft Replacement Rates.
The Replacement Rate column indicates how many planes per month the Allies will get through off-map production.
The Production Rate column indicates how many planes per month they will get through on-map factories.
(Contrary to Japan, the Allies cannot increase their factories)

The values given are average values, as there are dice rolls involved every turn.
So they can get slightly less or more planes per month. Alfred stated this somewhere in the forum.

I didn't know about this. Thank you

I went and looked at the numbers for scenario 2 and they appear to be about the same.

When i looked ahead at the numbers for '44 and '45 i almost wished i hadn't

That's a lot of F4Us, F6Fs and P47s coming!

[RangerJoe]

You don't need the editor for this. Just open the game and start a new game, with the scenario you are playing, against the Japanese AI. The information you are looking for is in the Intel screen(hotkey: i)->Aircraft Replacement Rates.
The Replacement Rate column indicates how many planes per month the Allies will get through off-map production.
The Production Rate column indicates how many planes per month they will get through on-map factories.
(Contrary to Japan, the Allies cannot increase their factories)

The values given are average values, as there are dice rolls involved every turn.
So they can get slightly less or more planes per month. Alfred stated this somewhere in the forum.

I didn't know about this. Thank you

I went and looked at the numbers for scenario 2 and they appear to be about the same.

When i looked ahead at the numbers for '44 and '45 i almost wished i hadn't

That's a lot of F4Us, F6Fs and P47s coming!

But remember, being on the defensive means that you will lose fewer pilots for the same number of planes lost. You can also increase your production. There is also a gap between the P47 models as well. Think of the VP ratio aspect as well, he has to score more than 2 to 1 to eventually win. Now think of just how many large and smaller aircraft carriers that you have sunk, that is a lot of the Allied Death Star that won't be there. Which means that he will have to be protected more by land based air for his invasions that taking large leaps in the Central Pacific into your land based air with only his carrier air for support.

Also, those very long range bombers of yours can also hit supply convoys behind the lines as well as night attacks on airfields. If you have not done so yet, bomb VP industrial targets in Australia. If there are dot bases left behind, get a few air support squads there with some supplies and them move in float planes for low naval attacks on convoys that may not have sufficient CAP. After the attacks, move the float planes back.