Mersing (Gambit) Gamey?

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

I saw Desert Wolf post in his request for a new PBEM game mention no abuse of the magic move TFs including a Mersing Invasion. Does everyone consider this gamey?

It seems to me entirely within the realm of possibilities for the Japanese to pull off.

I would think that with Air Cover from 5 CVs of various types with over 140 aircraft and over 150 land based fighters and over 100 land based bombers, along with over 30 search and recon planes contributing to the effort i'm not sure we can call it a "gambit"

Generally, with 3 or 4 surface combat TFs consisting in total of 8 BBs, 6CAs, 5CLs, and more than 30 DDs, along with numerous submarines, it could be a major normal invasion force.

i guess i just don't know.

[Skyros]

I think it is considered gamey due to the alarm that would be raised if the majority of the IJN sailed into that area. It could not be a surprise attack and would have been tracked for days just as the historical troop movements were. The entire carrier force definitely would have alerted the British and Americans and caused them to be proactive rather than hoping the Japanese moves were just a consolidation of their position in Thailand.

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

Does that apply to Kuantan? Kota Bharu? Kuching? or Miri? Jesselton? or Puerto Princess? Is there a line somewhere? Is there some other criteria? Or are only historical landings allowed?

[JanSako]

Imo it is gamey on turn 1 with the magic movement, but then so can be any ahistorical invasion using it. Starting on day 2 it is no longer gamey.

That said, there should be a house rule on what can be invaded on T1, otherwise there should be no Dec 1st surprise & the Allies should be allowed to freely move/create TF's & move all assets.

[BBfanboy]

Does that apply to Kuantan? Kota Bharu? Kuching? or Miri? Jesselton? or Puerto Princess? Is there a line somewhere? Is there some other criteria? Or are only historical landings allowed?

Historically the Allies observing troop convoys saw them heading to the southernmost Japanese bases in Thailand but on the Malay Peninsula. Since the convoys did not dip below that dividing line it could not be concluded they were going to attack British Malaya. That is why Force Z did not sortie on December 8 (Malaya date) and was milling around at sea on December 9 when Adm. Philipps could not get conclusive info on the locations of the landings. Something as definite as troop convoys sighted in the British zone on Dec. 7 would have brought Force Z out to warn them off.

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

Ok, There are 24 special move TFs available. And they are supposed to be used for???

[RangerJoe]

Ok, There are 24 special move TFs available. And they are supposed to be used for???

They all have set destinations. But the 2 DD Midway bombardment force could accept the slower Kaga and have fun somewhere else.

[tolsdorff]

some things that fall into the gamey category :
- Facing an unsuspecting opponent -> Invading the Seattle region -> conquering some base for 1 day with a small unit -> getting 10.000's of victory points and the permanent destruction of between 50-100 CVE's
- Mass invading China along a river with a massive fleet
- Playing scenario 2 (japan get's a lot of extra's)
- all the premium hindsight information the allied player has about : 1. Actual Japanese strength everywhere, 2. the complete reinforcement schedule of the Japanese. 3. Actual japanese logistical stockpiles everywhere.
- using lower numbered TF's and airgroups to get an advantage (although that might have been fixed, who knows)

The list goes on and on.

Trying for Mersing isn't gamey. In real life it could have been in the realm of possibility with decent planning and half of KB present. Besides this one invasion is not going to change the outcome of the war.

[RangerJoe]

some things that fall into the gamey category :
- Facing an unsuspecting opponent -> Invading the Seattle region -> conquering some base for 1 day with a small unit -> getting 10.000's of victory points and the permanent destruction of between 50-100 CVE's
- Mass invading China along a river with a massive fleet
- Playing scenario 2 (japan get's a lot of extra's)
- all the premium hindsight information the allied player has about : 1. Actual Japanese strength everywhere, 2. the complete reinforcement schedule of the Japanese. 3. Actual japanese logistical stockpiles everywhere.
- using lower numbered TF's and airgroups to get an advantage (although that might have been fixed, who knows)

The list goes on and on.

Trying for Mersing isn't gamey. In real life it could have been in the realm of possibility with decent planning and half of KB present. Besides this one invasion is not going to change the outcome of the war.

Portland would be the better target. But the shipping and the fishing boats would have reported the incoming fleets or that they had been attacked.

Mersing on day 2 would be acceptable but it could be risky with no KB in the area.

[Encircled]

Mersing Day 1 - gamey

Mersing Day 2 - not gamey

You know exactly where all the allied units are, and exactly how they can or can't react, so you have to bear in mind that advantage you have

Its like carrier hunting on Turn 1, or bombing Sydney, or San Diego

[Platoonist]

Portland would be the better target. But the shipping and the fishing boats would have reported the incoming fleets or that they had been attacked.

Not to mention the coastal fortresses sited on both sides of the river you have to sail up to reach Portland, Oregon.

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

Mersing Day 1 - gamey

Mersing Day 2 - not gamey

You know exactly where all the allied units are, and exactly how they can or can't react, so you have to bear in mind that advantage you have

Its like carrier hunting on Turn 1, or bombing Sydney, or San Diego

thank you
i would never consider carrier hunting or anything east coast, pearl harbor or past singapore

[RangerJoe]

Mersing Day 1 - gamey

Mersing Day 2 - not gamey

You know exactly where all the allied units are, and exactly how they can or can't react, so you have to bear in mind that advantage you have

Its like carrier hunting on Turn 1, or bombing Sydney, or San Diego

thank you
i would never consider carrier hunting or anything east coast, pearl harbor or past singapore

I hope that you mean West Coast!

[Chris21wen]

No, not gamey provided you have cover and not necesaryily using the KB either. It's well within reach of the special TFs, four hexes hurther than Kota. Heading for the likes of Palembang, Sydney West coast etc, well that's a different thing. Many of the house rule revolve around us knowing were the Allies are, in real life the Japanese did not and did show caution in they opening moves but with a little more boldness but not stupidity I don't see why not. I've explored it and it worked, but then I didn't attack PH.

[Chris21wen]

Ok, There are 24 special move TFs available. And they are supposed to be used for???

They all have set destinations. But the 2 DD Midway bombardment force could accept the slower Kaga and have fun somewhere else.

You can change their destinations.

[DesertWolf101]

Not sure where you saw my post on the Mersing Gambit being gamey (my most recent opponent wanted post did not mention it). Nevertheless, I do indeed believe the Mersing Gambit on turn 1 is gamey. The only way it wouldn't be gamey in my view is if Allied December 7th surprise is turned OFF and the Allies are allowed to also give their full orders in turn 1. Essentially, the point I would make is that the Japanese can certainly attempt to invade Mersing on the first day of the war, but there is no chance they would have been able to catch the Allies napping if they attempted to do so.

[Chris21wen]

Not sure where you saw my post on the Mersing Gambit being gamey (my most recent opponent wanted post did not mention it). Nevertheless, I do indeed believe the Mersing Gambit on turn 1 is gamey. The only way it wouldn't be gamey in my view is if Allied December 7th surprise is turned OFF and the Allies are allowed to also give their full orders in turn 1. Essentially, the point I would make is that the Japanese can certainly attempt to invade Mersing on the first day of the war, but there is no chance they would have been able to catch the Allies napping if they attempted to do so.

Why? They cought them napping elsewhere.

[Maallon]

I think the gamey part in the Mersing Gambit comes into play if the Allied Player has no way of reacting to it.
If the popular turn 1 House Rule "Allies are not allowed to alter air unit settings outside of China" is used to allow the Japanese surprise attack on turn 1, then landing in Mersing is basically abusing that HR.
The Allied player cannot use his air force to try to prevent the Mersing landing from happening and positioning Force Z at Mersing on a hunch is risky without air cover. The Japanese player is perfectly aware that his opponent has his hands tied behind his back and is abusing that fact to make moves he maybe would otherwise not dare to do.
That is also the reason a Mersing gambit on turn 2 is not seen as gamey, as the Allies can now use all their forces to their full potential and thus making the Mersing gambit an actual gambit for Japan.

Mersing and to a lesser extent Kuantan can be defended from Singapore with Torpedo Bombers and Force Z, Kota Bharu is outside the range of the TBs and cannot be reached by Force Z during a single naval movement phase.
It is possible for the Allies to inflict heavy losses to the Japanese invasion force at Mersing or Kuantan, but not really at bases farther north.

If the aforementioned HR is not used, then the the Allied Player can already use all his forces at turn 1 and it is sequentially not really "gamey" to do the Mersing gambit on turn 1.


To be honest, I am not sure what the "Beef" is about. The most important thing is that two players can reach a consent on matters like that, ideally before the first turn even starts, whatever that consent may be. Doesn't really matter what other people think about that.

[DesertWolf101]

Because the British were closely observing and tracking Japanese movements as they made their way towards Thailand/Malaya. The first loss of the Pacific War was actually a British PBY - happened even before the Pearl Harbor attack occurred. It's one thing to attack Manila from the air from Formosa and Pearl Harbor from the middle of an empty ocean, it's entirely a different proposition to approach a large port/airfiled with extensive maritime and air traffic extending into the South China Sea and still maintain the element of surprise. If the Japanese were moving on Mersing in force there is simply no way the British would have been caught napping.

[RangerJoe]

Because the British were closely observing and tracking Japanese movements as they made their way towards Thailand/Malaya. The first loss of the Pacific War was actually a British PBY - happened even before the Pearl Harbor attack occurred. It's one thing to attack Manila from the air from Formosa and Pearl Harbor from the middle of an empty ocean, it's entirely a different proposition to approach a large port/airfiled with extensive maritime and air traffic extending into the South China Sea and still maintain the element of surprise. If the Japanese were moving on Mersing in force there is simply no way the British would have been caught napping.

I thought that an Australian Hudson was shot down about 1.5 hours before the Pearl Harbor attack started.

Besides, the Japanese were attacked by air during the night.

https://anzacportal.dva.gov.au/resource ... -1941-1945