Sub Feedback Request

[Hubert Cater]

Bill and I have noticed quite a bit of feedback since the first public Beta on some of the difficulties players have had with subs in terms of getting them out to the Atlantic, raiding and overall detection and effectiveness.

For anyone having any or all of these difficulties, could you provide us with some feedback so we can get a better handle on any possible suggestions we can provide or possible changes to the campaign or game mechanics to improve the overall balance?


1)
a) For those having trouble getting their subs out into the Atlantic early in the game, could you tell us the general dates (timeframe) you are attempting to break your subs out into the Atlantic? For example, October 1939 etc.

b) Could you also tell us the route you are attempting to use with your subs and if you use Silent mode, or Naval Cruise?


2)
a) Once in the Atlantic, could you tell us if you are finding it difficult to raid effectively on the convoy lines without being detected too quickly?

b) Can you provide the in game years this would cover, before or after the Fall of France and if you are employing a strategy of constant movement on the convoy lines, and/or an on/off convoy line strategy or not?


3) Can you tell us if you are playing with FoW on or off?


Thanks as this will help paint a better picture overall,
Hubert

[sPzAbt653]

FOW = OFF

1st game the sub and ship that start in the Atlantic were found immediately and destroyed. I have practiced the first three turns and now know how to get them back to Germany safely. Same with the sub that starts out by Denmark.

1st game I moved subs from Germany north to Scapa Flow and south thru the channel to get them into the Atlantic, none made it. I tried a few practice starts using Silent, Hunt and Cruise and none made it. All were found immediately and destroyed. Few ever dove from attack, and the few that did were found immediately. None ever made it to any convoy lines as on the first turn they were knocked down to 5-6 strength and then they had to high-tale it back to port for repairs, but none made it.

2nd game I kept all ships and subs in ports and waited for an opportunity within 10 hexes to hit an Allied ship [ten hexes out, hit the enemy, ten hexes back home to safety]. This worked well, but is not an accurate portrayal of the Battle of the Atlantic and has no effect on convoys as all convoy lines are further than ten hexes from safe German ports, even those in conquered France. Meanwhile, both German convoy routes are within safe distance for Allied ships, so they basically get free interdiction of German convoys. It does work well as a fairly accurate portrayal of situations like the Tirpitz in Trondheim. If Tirpitz is located there, the Allied computer moves ships to cover the Northern Route. Its a standoff, like in history. But moving any subs to the northern route and attempting to interdict any convoys is suicide. For one turn of interdiction, all subs will be lost.

[jpinard]

My first game as Axis in 1.06 I had no trouble at all getting my subs raiding in the Atlantic. FOW ON.

Likewise in my current game as the Allies, the AI appears to have had little trouble sending his subs wherever he wants. FOW ON.

I will start a game as Axis in 1.07 to see if I have issues. I always play with FOW ON. With it off I feel like I'm cheating.

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

FOW = OFF

1st game the sub and ship that start in the Atlantic were found immediately and destroyed. I have practiced the first three turns and now know how to get them back to Germany safely. Same with the sub that starts out by Denmark.

1st game I moved subs from Germany north to Scapa Flow and south thru the channel to get them into the Atlantic, none made it. I tried a few practice starts using Silent, Hunt and Cruise and none made it. All were found immediately and destroyed. Few ever dove from attack, and the few that did were found immediately. None ever made it to any convoy lines as on the first turn they were knocked down to 5-6 strength and then they had to high-tale it back to port for repairs, but none made it.

2nd game I kept all ships and subs in ports and waited for an opportunity within 10 hexes to hit an Allied ship [ten hexes out, hit the enemy, ten hexes back home to safety]. This worked well, but is not an accurate portrayal of the Battle of the Atlantic and has no effect on convoys as all convoy lines are further than ten hexes from safe German ports, even those in conquered France. Meanwhile, both German convoy routes are within safe distance for Allied ships, so they basically get free interdiction of German convoys. It does work well as a fairly accurate portrayal of situations like the Tirpitz in Trondheim. If Tirpitz is located there, the Allied computer moves ships to cover the Northern Route. Its a standoff, like in history. But moving any subs to the northern route and attempting to interdict any convoys is suicide. For one turn of interdiction, all subs will be lost.

Hi

If I remember correctly, you like to play the land battle without fog of war and therefore have Fog of War set to off (apologies if I'm confusing you with someone else).

Only I think there is a way you can do this, and that would be to turn Fog of War on in the Options once you have completed your land movement.

Then you can carry out your naval actions, hit end turn, and the AI will be using Fog of War.

Turn Fog of War off when it's your turn again, move your land units, turn it back on and move your naval side...

I know it means a couple more clicks every turn but it might be worth a try to see if this gives you a closer approximation of the game you want, while also making the naval side more worthwhile for you.

[dhucul2011]

I think that there may be too many UK DDs in the first two years.

The UK should need to depend on the destroyers for bases heavily or spend their tight MPP budget on new destroyers.

Maybe have the Bulldog and/or Amazon taken out of the PQ and put back into the available builds.

Also have the destroyers for bases DDs arrive at 4 strength and no research.

[gwgardner]

I haven't had difficulty in slipping my subs out to sea early on using the long-distance move to the far north Atlantic. One has to be careful however, or the track from Germany to the north Atlantic will take you right past Scapa Flow, where it's easy to run into the enemy. You have to go more north than northwest from Germany to reach the open ocean.

It might help if the game's system for devising the route for long-distance moves, didn't make a big jog over towards the UK, then right up past Scapa.

However, once in hunt mode, on the convoy routes, it seems subs are too easiy spotted. Or if spotted, too rarely escape by diving. I personally think that if the spotting parameters were tweaked just a bit, OR if the subs had more of a chance to dive before being attacked, then the early sub game would be better.

Even later in the game, my subs don't often dive before attacks.

[sPzAbt653]

turn Fog of War on in the Options once you have completed your land movement. Then you can carry out your naval actions, hit end turn, and the AI will be using Fog of War. Turn Fog of War off when it's your turn again, move your land units, turn it back on and move your naval side...

Brilliant ! I'm trying it and it seems to work, it's turn 3 and this is the first time I have ever seen this message.

[jpinard]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

turn Fog of War on in the Options once you have completed your land movement. Then you can carry out your naval actions, hit end turn, and the AI will be using Fog of War. Turn Fog of War off when it's your turn again, move your land units, turn it back on and move your naval side...

Brilliant ! I'm trying it and it seems to work, it's turn 3 and this is the first time I have ever seen this message.

LOL, that's like every turn in my games. Both me disrupting the AI and him disrupting me. I can see how you were frustrated before.

[Hubert Cater]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

turn Fog of War on in the Options once you have completed your land movement. Then you can carry out your naval actions, hit end turn, and the AI will be using Fog of War. Turn Fog of War off when it's your turn again, move your land units, turn it back on and move your naval side...

Brilliant ! I'm trying it and it seems to work, it's turn 3 and this is the first time I have ever seen this message.

Thanks for the feedback and much appreciated as this paints a much better picture of your situation. Problem really is that with FoW OFF the AI sees you, as well as you see it, so it makes a lot of sense to me now why your subs were being attacked so heavily by the AI.

Glad to hear Bill's suggestion has helped as well [:)]

[Lehnardtsson]

Level intermediate, I all the time have around 7/8 subs. New ones leaving from Germany or Saint nazaire always in "silent mode"
Old ones going home to be reinforced always in "silent mode"
some trying to disturb shipping...

I am level 2 but no success. They are spotted everytime.
Allies units are level 1 or 2 no more.

With previous build, I invested less money but got much more success

[crispy131313]

I have not experienced problems with my submarine raiding campaign against the AI however I do wonder if changing submarine raiding range 1 additional hex would be beneficial. It would certainly make the Allies have "spead their wings" a bit to find submarines in raiding lanes thus reducing the frequency of detection especially in the early years.

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: Lehnardtsson

Level intermediate, I all the time have around 7/8 subs. New ones leaving from Germany or Saint nazaire always in "silent mode"
Old ones going home to be reinforced always in "silent mode"
some trying to disturb shipping...

I am level 2 but no success. They are spotted everytime.
Allies units are level 1 or 2 no more.

With previous build, I invested less money but got much more success

I'm not sure of any reason why you might have less effect now.

You haven't mentioned whether or not you are playing with Fog of War on?

One thing I've also been wondering is which convoy routes you are all attacking.

For instance, raiding the one from Canada to the UK is fine for a while, but after raiding that for a few turns it can be good to go and raid another further south.

This keeps the Allies having to move around, uncertain of your next move and having to spread their forces.

[Lehnardtsson]

I play with FOW on.
I try to get all of the convoy
but my raiders can never stay more than 1 or 2 turns before being spotted and almost killed, so it is a long job (i mean lots of click click click, plenty of investments for very little -15MPP per turn)

personally I would rather pay more my subs but letting them "hunting alone" not having to check every turn to shift the subs between them and shift location

[ncc1701e]

1)a)b) From turn one, whatever I have trying with hunt or silent mode, I am detected in North Sea very easily by DD and CV units. Attempting to go North East of Scapa Flow.

Only way I have found is to use the naval cruise and to end near the Norvegian coast at the end of the turn. There, you are not detected and could go in the atlantic South of Iceland.

2)a)b) Once in the Atlantic, it is easy to raid effectively the convoy lines without being detected too quickly. I am constantly moving the SS units from one convoy line to another.
I was only attacked once by a CV unit that has disappeared. It was beginning November 1939.
I have reached 1940 without problem continuing to test.

3) I am playing with FoW on

Cheers

[berthier]

Ive noticed (v1.07) that when in hunt mode on the convoy routes with FOW on, the Allied player will sometimes "bump" into a Uboat with a CL, which stops, then the DD's descend from everywhere, then the CL moves off. I would have thought with the system the first encounter by the CL, which should not have good anti-sub technology should stop that ship in place and allow an attack, but this does not occur.

The other thought I had was that typically any Uboat spotted would immediately submerge regardless and try to get away, under the current system, this does not happen. They need to be attacked then there is a small chance of diving. Clearly there is modelling of Uboats caught on the surface as well as those hunted after successful convoy attacks but in the period 1939-41 historically the Uboats were more ascendent.

[BillRunacre]

Hi berthier

What you've mentioned in your first paragraph sounds like a bug, as any surprise contact should end the ambushed unit's movement. It may be able to attack, but certainly not move.

If you see any examples in the latest version 1.00.08 then please send saved turns to Hubert.


With your second paragraph, U-Boats have a base chance of 20% of diving when attacked. This rises by 10% per research level of Advanced Subs so it could reach 70%... except that enemy Anti-Submarine Warfare research successes will reduce this by 10% per level.

We have had it higher in the past but some players hunting subs got frustrated, so getting the balance right isn't easy.

The U-Boats base diving chance could be increased to say 25%. I think I'll await more feedback from the latest version to see if that admittedly subtle change would be worthwhile.

[sPzAbt653]

My current game I got the U-Boats up to Level 5 and most of the time they were diving. I can see how this would be frustrating to the hunter, but so it was historically.

A progression of 20% to 70% ... isn't this backwards ? The Allies had a better chance of catching subs as the war progressed. Seems like it should start at 70% [or more] and go down by 15% for Allied Advanced ASW, and up by 5% for Axis Advanced Subs.

[BillRunacre]

I think you've missed this bit from my post: "except that enemy Anti-Submarine Warfare research successes will reduce this by 10% per level."

So if the UK or USA are on level 2 ASW, then level 5 U-Boats could have a maximum dive % of 50%.

[sPzAbt653]

I didn't miss it, at the start the U-Boats have a 20% chance to dive/evade, though they can advance to 70%, but the Allies can decrease that back down to 20%.

What I'm saying is - that seems backwards, as the U-Boats had a much better success rate earlier than later. If it starts at 70% [or more] and goes down by 15% for Allied Advanced ASW, and up by 5% for Axis Advanced Subs, then the Allies would eventually reach the 20% chance. This seems more realistic than subs getting hammered early on but evading more successfully later. Or, did I really miss the point ? [:(]

[BillRunacre]

I see, that is a different take on it.

The current diving % chance stays the same throughout the game, if both sides are at the same level: