(Land) Strike mission: 4 targets - 4 aircraft

[Jorge_Stanbury]

In a land strike mission or package:
is it possible to set 4 airplanes to strike 4 individual targets in the same mission? in the same bombing pass?

I know I can create one mission + 3 clones and then set one airplane to each target, but can it be done in one mission?

the standard behavior I get is multiple passes:
plane1 strikes target1 on 1st pass, the other 3 planes won't attack
then if target is destroyed plane2 will pick target2 otherwise attack target1 again
and so on.. the problem is that in each pass there is a risk of AAA or manpads damage.

or:
if the attack method includes long split distances, there is a chance that target1 will be destroyed by the time the next aircraft arrives and it will pick another target

A slightly separate topic:
when having multiple aircraft doing bombing runs, the wingmen have problems releasing bombs, I have seen multiple times that other than 1st airplane, all the others are doing multiple passes without releasing bombs. I have been able to correct by increasing the "target" altitude in flightplan; I think the default setting for bomb release is too low for a plane that is not perfectly aligned.

[tylerblakebrandon]

I do this routinely and have nver noticed any real issue. It's all about tuning the WRA and getting it dialed in right. Certain weapon/platform combinations have quirks like you need to disable use in self-defense for rockets or in my experience the entire flight dumps everything on the 1st target. Some weapon/platform combinations may have limitations based on available datalinks or illuminator that limit the amount of targets that can be engaged simultaneously.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Thanks
first of all, a correction: DO NOT clone missions, cloning missions mess flight plans (testing in latest beta)

The scenarios I have tested are with free-fall GP bombs; "Tutorial 3 - Complex Strike" as sandbox/ dry run for "tutorial - English Jets Over Uganda". Both are low level bombing runs. I believe it is easier to launch everything at the same time with missiles, or with long range bombs, the options on WRA are kind of all the same for free fall bombs, I will keep testing in tutorial 3

I love the Ugandan scenario; in the most successful run, I was able to surprise attack and launch all bombs/ rockets in a 10 minute time interval. Flight plans are a really good addition, but again, I had to use individual plane strike missions (1 plane, 1 target), regardless of how many things I tried, I cannot guarantee one pass - one target - per plane

[tylerblakebrandon]

Thanks
first of all, a correction: DO NOT clone missions, cloning missions mess flight plans (testing in latest beta)

The scenarios I have tested are with free-fall GP bombs; "Tutorial 3 - Complex Strike" as sandbox/ dry run for "tutorial - English Jets Over Uganda". Both are low level bombing runs. I believe it is easier to launch everything at the same time with missiles, or with long range bombs, the options on WRA are kind of all the same for free fall bombs, I will keep testing in tutorial 3

I love the Ugandan scenario; in the most successful run, I was able to surprise attack and launch all bombs/ rockets in a 10 minute time interval. Flight plans are a really good addition, but again, I had to use individual plane strike missions (1 plane, 1 target), regardless of how many things I tried, I cannot guarantee one pass - one target - per plane

I have not experienced such issues with dumb bombs and rockets. I just try to tailor my flight size and loadouts to the the target list and finesse the WRA. For example a strike on a airbase with 6 runway access points. I might tailor a strike with 3x 2 ship or 2x 3 ship flights. Let's say each aircraft carries 4x mk 82s I will set WRA as 4x bombs per target and 1x shooter and with strike planner set for individual targeting. so each plane drops 4x mk 82s on 1x seperate access point.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

I tested again (Tutorial 3: Complex Strike)

6 Mig-23s (2 with incendiary bombs, 2 with TV guided, 2 with general purpose bombs)
7 targets, set priorities to hangar and terminal
WRA = all bombs per target and 1x shooter (I wanted only one bomb pass... )
flight size = 2

The 1st try didn't work, they targeted individually, but of the 6 Migs, one plane didn't release and returned home with full load, another stayed on target doing several passes without releasing any bomb

1 tried again with flight size = 1
and it finally worked, all bombs released, one pass, individual targets and 6 targets destroyed, the sole survivor was not on priority list and I expected it to survive (I just put it to verify if target priorities were ok)

Thanks a lot for your help

[DWReese]

I looked into this same situation a few months ago.

If you group the strikers and ask them to hit multiple targets, even setting it up like you did originally, then it rarely works. I believe that there is something that exists that tells the second and third strikers to wait for the outcome of the first attack before electing to strike another target. This is why it was so hard to figure out. If the striker destroyed the first target with his bomb then the second will start in on the second. So, things will appear to work perfectly normal when that happens.

But, if the first target wasn't destroyed, then the second striker is likely to no longer to be in position to strike any other targets, so he flies on by. You might get the third or fourth plane to drop their ordinance because the first outcome has been resolved. It is a pain.

But, the work around is to schedule separate missions, telling this striker to drop on this target, and instructing that striker to go after that target. It's possible that this method is more realistic anyway. I'm not a pilot, but I would think that picking a target by its availability likely takes more actual time to be able to do that as the pilot must get acquainted with the target changes. Again, I don't KNOW this to be true, but it would seem to make sense.

One final thing that could help, if you decide to attack as a single mission: You could spread your strikers out farther, and have them strike using the formation editor. That seems to give them more of a chance to do what you want.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

yes, it just happened again, in Falklands 3rd or 4th scenario (attacking the carrier 25 de Mayo)

4 Harriers with bombs in one mission, 1 airplane per flight, 2 targets (CV 25 de Mayo and FFG St Trinidad) 1st priority set to carrier, release all bombs, 2 shooters per target.

Results: all passed over the Destroyer, without releasing bombs, then they were probably not well aligned to release against the carrier, so they didn't attack it either, then RTB (in part because they were low on fuel, attack was at very long range).

So I am back to 1 mission = 1 target = 1 aircaft

Multiple axis of attack works better, but in the scenarios I tested, the long range and probability of reaching bingo has not helped

[DWReese]

What is also problematic is when the planes don't their bombs and then RTB and subsequently crash after running out of fuel. It would be nice to be able to have a button that enables you to be able to drop unwanted/unused ordinance in lieu of crashing because of running out of fuel.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

there is a doctrine to allow jettison of unused ordnance,
but I had never used it before, I prefer that they drop bombs

[DWReese]

there is a doctrine to allow jettison of unused ordnance,

That's ONLY if under attack.

[tylerblakebrandon]

I have been unable to replicate the issues you have encountered getting multiple aircraft to make a "one pass haul ass" strike dumping all ordnance without leaving all WRA on default.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

I created a test save
the scenario is a modified "English Jets over Uganda"; with all the Migs removed to make the testing runs easier

- I created one strike mission, 4 targets. 4 bombers
- I set the doctrine to 1 aircraft per target


I run it around 5 or 6 times, with very random results ranging from no bombs dropped at all, and aircraft doing circles, to only 1 aircraft releasing bombs the rest RTB with full load, to all bombs released. This without changing anything to the mission.
I have included a save "bombing test only one bomber dropped" to show the results of one of those tests

If I do the exact same with 4 missions (one target on each), I know it will work consistently each time, obviously results will differ based on AAA luck and bombing accuracy.

[DWReese]

As I told you before, I've been dealing with this for several months. If you would like to further the test, assign your same planes to attack some ships instead. It should work perfectly. IIRC.

Since the elevation of the ocean is zero, and it works, and the ground often varies (unless you are in the desert) it would leave me to think that this issue has something to do with ground elevation. And, since it worked perfectly before these new mast height stuff was added, it leaves me to believe that this problem is somehow tied to that----elevation.

Try it, and see what you find. Same planes, same type of mission, but this time attack ships. See what happens.

Doug

[cwemyss]

It's been a while!!! I absolutely love the new mission planner, ToT, flight plans, etc. That's literally hours of spreadsheet hacking that I don't have to do any more, and it allows a ton more opportunity for the scenario designers to make the AI behave the way you want them to.

I found this thread because... yeah. Two scenarios attached, a land version and a sea version. Simple scenario, F-16s with dumb bombs (2x 2000-lb) attacking over relatively* flat terrain, a land strike and a sea strike. 4 targets, 4 planes. I have the WRA set to two bombs per target and one shooter per target.

No matter which Attack Method I choose in the mission planning window, all four targets are never attacked. In the land version, the lead two invariably drop on the same building, then the other two usually adjust, sometimes at the same target, sometimes at different targets. In the sea version, the 2-bombs-per-target WRA appears to be obeyed better, but I still never get drops on all four targets. And in the sea version, one or two of the attackers often bring home bombs.

I'm at a bit of a loss. DW's method (one mission/one plane per target) is fine for the human player, but for an AI it doesn't work.


*: If you've been to Houston... you know.

[thewood1]

Do you mean the opposing AI. That would just be dependent on the scenario designer, wouldn't it? Of course that would mean the designer knew of the issue.

[cwemyss]

Do you mean the opposing AI. That would just be dependent on the scenario designer, wouldn't it? Of course that would mean the designer knew of the issue.

Correct... as a scenario designer I'd like each aircraft in a strike to select a different aim point. Hitting an airfield? 4 jets roll in, 4 different HAS are attacked on the first pass.

While I'm making a wish list... the ability to select a distance for ingress points would be cool too. If my player is going to have Talos/SA-5/SM-6, or layered defenses en route to the target, the strike should be in the weeds waaay out.

[thewood1]

You can do that already can't you? Using flight plans. Just adjust them from the AI built ones.

[cwemyss]

So the scenario I have in mind is the AI spots your TF coming in and launches strikes. It's not a pre-planned target, as the AI didn't "know" what was out there, rather its a dynamic "naval strike" reaction mission. I want those attacks to be just as potentially effective as anyting the player could do... but that's not what's generating right now.

I'll fully admit I haven't dug into all the capabilities of Flight Plans, ATOs, etc.
I'll play with it more, but I wanted to start with crowdsourcing, and/or raising the issue if it's not working as the dev team intended.

[thewood1]

I would suggest using the tools in the new versions. What you are describing is a big reason those tools were implemented.

[cwemyss]

I would suggest using the tools in the new versions. What you are describing is a big reason those tools were implemented.

The two test scenarios I posted were made with the latest non-beta version. My thinking is, any manual intervention I have to do with a flight plan is something the non- human- controlled side can't do.