Grunhilde gets antsy - 1941 GC

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loki100
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T127 - Interpreting Stalin's plans

Post by loki100 »

T127 – 21 November 1943

A turn with more thinking than doing. Ignoring what the Soviets actually did, I have basically lost track of 2 of their core offensive groups. They had pulled the Gds formations that had been in the Chernobyl region out and replaced them by regular rifle divisions. Also I'm no longer sure what is the focus for the cluster facing Minsk.

So, normally a good time to really commit to air recon, except it was a blizzard turn so the airforce was grounded. These are relatively rare in the 43/44 winter, in this case only led to light snow on the ground and its almost inevitable it won't be sustained into next week – but not good for an army increasingly relying on its airpower.

To add to my uncertainty, the Soviets didn't do much. I think more generally he's worried about manpower reserves going into 1944 (he can only really shrink the Red Army towards 6m once the front shortens past Riga and even better past Koenigsberg) and his tanks are dieing in large numbers (and its not till May 44 that the T34/85 really deploys).

The result was two isolated offensives and a lot of worry.

In the north not much, but then can proceed via a couple of hexes a turn, and regular breaks, I doubt I will hold Pskov much into 1944 and when it falls they can have Talinin (if its still winter I might try to defend it). Also this sector will need to be abandoned if they manage a break out at Minsk.

But its losses, units off the line to refit and the need for the occasional fresh formation.

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Far more serious in the south where they carried on last week's attack. Worth setting out the operational dynamic, breaking my lines, especially where I have forts 2/3, costs them a lot. They can easily lose 3-5k in a successful attack. As above the first set of CPP rules masked this as they could keep a high cv despite attrition. From as much tracking as I can do, my instinct now is the break-through elements are all off the line for a quick refit, so even their most powerful groups slowly degrade.

Here they again took heavy losses but this time committed their cavalry and tank/mech forces.

So the gamble. I was able easily to free up one Pzr Corps from 1 PzrA as that had been shoring up my lines around Chernobyl. Whatever the Soviets do next they now can't attack on that sector next turn due to the MP costs.

The gamble was whether to weaken the shield actually covering Kiyev. In the end I pulled out another Corps so 2 corps of 1 PzrA hit their northern edge and 2 from 4 Pzr the south. No encirclement, what I am gambling on is these losses, added to the casualties taken by the Rifle Corps effectively stall this attack.

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Lacking air power as a force multiplier meant my wins were pretty marginal, but adding to their breakthrough losses that might give me some respite.

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Apart from in respect of tanks, more or less a 1-1 exchange. The reality is a little better as their losses are masked by something like 15k return of disabled manpower.

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So I have weakened 2/3 of my Pzr formations in the Ukraine, the hope is that has left that cluster of formations badly weakened in turn. What I really have no idea is what the formations that were originally set to the NW of Kiyev are doing – but I strongly suspect they will erupt from their lodgement around Cherkassy in the next turn or so.
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T128 - Good morning, midnight?

Post by loki100 »

T128 – 28 November 1943

Back to snowfall and some much needed recon.

In a way good news that they haven't weakened the threat to Minsk. At this moment any attack there is going to cost them heavily, I guess that they are taking the view that they will take the city well before the summer of 1944 regardless.

Not least I may well have to pull formations out to deal with crises elsewhere – but this is still the direct road to the Reich.

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While the area behind the Kiyev front is a bit of a wasteland, just a load of tank tracks in the snow. Given what happened elsewhere I don't regard this as good news, except that I took the gamble of stripping down my commitment here. If its all a huge ruse, well they get the fort line, if, as I fear, they are now south of the Dnipro then my forts NE of Kiyev become irrelevant in any case.

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They carried on with their Pskov offensive, cavalry divisions exploited but fortunately they are too weak to stand up to even a localised counter-stroke. So reset a decent line but this is the usual pattern on this sector since he cleared the Volkhov. Enough wins that over time I have to yield ground, followed by long rests. As in the last post I don't see me clinging to Pskov much into 1944 so its been an effective approach on what has to be a secondary sector.

The threat to the rail running to Daugavipils really seals the fate of Pskov, even if I can hold them off to the NE, I can't risk losing my line of retreat.

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Although I'd clearly weakened the formations attacking on the middle sector of the Bug, clearly not enough as they sustained it into a third week. To make it worse, I suffered a rare defeat when counter-attacking, really hurts as 56P was my last formation that hasn't been in action - I daren't pull any more of 1 PzrA down here.

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I still hope I've taken the sting out of that lunge but its gained them the Bug as I daren't risk an encirclement. I also have a ready fort line to the west and, as usual, no point falling back to it badly weakened or it won't hold long enough to make a difference.

Driving a tank in the Ukraine is becoming a dangerous business. One good thing for me is that SS Pzr division I sent to reserve picked up its full complement of medium tanks – I think I am going to need it very soon.

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Air war is a bit misleading. The Soviet approach seems to be to run GS till they have lost a certain number of pilots and then suspend. I assume this, combined with better planes (and my withdrawals) will slowly pay off in that they gain some combat experience but can still mostly used trained pilots to fill out the gaps.

So while the ratio looks like 1-1, the difference is I use GS all the time so pick up losses even after the VVS is safely tucked up for the night.

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Which sort of leads to some musing about Soviet operational approach and wider strategy. From discussions, while he remains aware of the 1944 HWM test he is now assuming he passes it. He's lost (in VP terms) the battle for Kiyev but its clear that Odessa is doomed and he'll clean up in the Baltic states.

So I think he has taken a leaf out of Chris' book which is to set a budget for losses and work within that. He could bull his way into Minsk, losing 4-6,000 men per successful attack, he probably could have done the same to Kiyev. But he's using his operational agency instead looking for easier wins and trying to ensure he can replace losses on the main combat sector. We both know the routine, his first exploitation tends to die horribly, my ability to do that again is becoming steadily less on each iteration.

As it is, I think I'm heading for a disaster in the Ukraine, not least there are no places where the front shortens and the Dnestr is the last real barrier to Rumania.

On which cheery note, most definitely time to disinter the Empress of gloomy poetry ... Emily Dickinson ... for the post titles
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Re: Grunhilde gets antsy - 1941 GC

Post by tm1 »

I must have missed it again I thought you were still holding Smolensk, but you say there at Minsk, this cant be good.

You mentioned your SS DIV got medium Panzers, they should be Panthers by now, are they helping slowing the enemy down.
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Re: Grunhilde gets antsy - 1941 GC

Post by loki100 »

Aye I lost Smolensk in late spring 1943, he put a lot of effort into that sector. I had a good fall back line on the land bridge which should have held but he reached at the worst of the CPP issues and just swept it away. Good thing is I've defended the Berezina for some 10 turns, he's made a few gains but each is a vicious battle for a hex and he learnt the hard way not to risk exploitation.

But MInsk is doomed and well in advance of its historical date.

yes, I've just got the turn back and its nicely filled with Panthers and late model Pzr IV. Generally, esp if I am the defending, I win tank-tank battles big time at the moment, I'll lose that as first the IS2 and then the T34/85 come into play. But for the moment its one of the few things (the air war is the other) that is cheering me up
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Re: Grunhilde gets antsy - 1941 GC

Post by aMaschina »

Very interesting read, happy to have you back!

At this point the only thing you do is slow down the red tide and inflict as many casualties as possible? So winning on the battlefield is not possible for the germans?
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Re: Grunhilde gets antsy - 1941 GC

Post by ToxicThug11 »

loki100 wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:11 pm Have decided to skip reporting on the opening turns, to some extent its too predictable, simply sets the scene for when the game starts to take on its original flavour. As far as feasible, we are trying for about 3 turns a week, the goal being to go as deep as possible (we talked about something like a chess clock but that is unfair on the Soviets simply due to the admin load they face).

No particular house rules other than not breaking up GA into multiple small missions to evade interception. Locked TB for a couple of reasons. One is that if this is properly balanced over a long game then its pretty tedious to micro-manage but equally it might unbalance the game. This was an issue with WiTW where early on it favoured the Axis but once it was properly balanced it was far more enjoyable to leave it to do its thing automatically (at that stage it could go horribly wrong for the Axis player if you didn't match the real transfers and it was just tedious). So they can redeploy, use the logistics system etc exactly as they wish.

I'm still struggling to get a hold on useful metrics for a longer game. So since I personally found it useful to break the game into broad phases in my last AAR, going to do it again here. In this case, I'm separating out the first 4 turns from the rest of 1941 – the impact is more or less a given and the losses for the opening pockets are near fixed .


I've put in my last T4 data for comparison (and it makes the point that most of this seems pretty much fixed). The big difference is the lower Pzr losses. Some of that is gameplay, I've not used them to attack Soviet tank divisions and so far have not suffered any sucessful counter-attacks. But the last set of patches are clearly at play here. If that carries on, this will see a very much stronger Pzr force in 1942.

The Soviet production numbers are guesses based off old saves I have. I don't think those variables have been adjusted (at least not at such a rough and ready level).

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We are using the full VP system as that gives a context and a set of dynamics otherwise missing. So the key points will probably be late 1942, December 1944 or Berlin.

The Axis player starts with 370 and (ignoring time and off-theater bonus) there are 540 available in the Soviet Union (290 linked to cities that were never captured). This has some bearing for both the initiative change and the HWM value (for the December 1944 test).

If the Axis player pushes the base value to 630, to match the HWM the Soviets need to regain all the USSR (incl Helsinki – as in past discussions a given) and Ploesti and Bucharest.

Or to put it another way, if over the course of the game time bonus and off map bonus are evenly traded, if the Axis take the base value over 630, the Soviets need to do better than historically at the end of 1944. This of course ignores what happens if the time bonuses become uneven – but it may hint at why just handing over the full set for the Ukraine is possibly not a good idea.


As is clear, I shed 2 pts of time bonus for Lviv and Riga – impact of the new routines for urban hexes.
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My opponent has asked not be named. They've agreed to put in some posts were relevant, since English is a second language I've agreed to rewrite and paste in any relevant images.
any updates or is this game paused :?:

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Re: Grunhilde gets antsy - 1941 GC

Post by loki100 »

ToxicThug11 wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:23 pm ....
any updates or is this game paused :?:
I've just sent back my 1 April 1945 turn.

But given the sustained effort of you and your group to get rid of anyone who isn't acceptable to you - why do you care?

I no longer make any public posts anywhere in connection with WiTE2 in an attempt to avoid getting more of that nonsense and just having to deal with 'Kenny' as an ongoing problem even outside game-related forums. It simply isn't worth it for my mental health.

But here are the two main summary charts

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So the game goes to the Berlin conditions, I might be able to delay that till a draw.
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Re: Grunhilde gets antsy - 1941 GC

Post by Zebtucker12 »

loki100 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:34 pm
ToxicThug11 wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:23 pm ....
any updates or is this game paused :?:
'Kenny'
Thats a shame i hope this kenny stops haunting you so that you can start posting AARs again :)
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Re: Grunhilde gets antsy - 1941 GC

Post by loki100 »

Zebtucker12 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:43 pm
loki100 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:34 pm
ToxicThug11 wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:23 pm ....
any updates or is this game paused :?:
'Kenny'
Thats a shame i hope this kenny stops haunting you so that you can start posting AARs again :)
First rate gaslighting - well done

Kenny is part of your creepy group (you know full well who he is and what he is up to), you have driven most of the abuse that has driven me off the forum.

Odd - for the first time in ages I log onto the tester forum to do a set of bug/data reports on the late game (lets face it not something your lot are ever likely to contribute), Stamb starts spitting poison there and ... you 2 turn up here with posts in a thread where you have never been seen before.
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Re: Grunhilde gets antsy - 1941 GC

Post by Zebtucker12 »

loki100 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:09 am
Zebtucker12 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:43 pm
loki100 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:34 pm

'Kenny'
Thats a shame i hope this kenny stops haunting you so that you can start posting AARs again :)
First rate gaslighting - well done

Kenny is part of your creepy group (you know full well who he is and what he is up to), you have driven most of the abuse that has driven me off the forum.

Odd - for the first time in ages I log onto the tester forum to do a set of bug/data reports on the late game (lets face it not something your lot are ever likely to contribute), Stamb starts spitting poison there and ... you 2 turn up here with posts in a thread where you have never been seen before.
I take that as a compliment that me and kulik are ELITE players that win before 1943 :D ( my VtB posts aside)
Other than that i think you are seing patterns and stuff that are not real. And please dont insult Stamb one of the most dedicated WITE2 testers :cry:
I dont know any Kennys other than the south park one but im pretty sure he aint real.
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Re: Grunhilde gets antsy - 1941 GC

Post by Stamb »

loki100 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:09 am
Zebtucker12 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:43 pm
loki100 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:34 pm

'Kenny'
Thats a shame i hope this kenny stops haunting you so that you can start posting AARs again :)
First rate gaslighting - well done

Kenny is part of your creepy group (you know full well who he is and what he is up to), you have driven most of the abuse that has driven me off the forum.

Odd - for the first time in ages I log onto the tester forum to do a set of bug/data reports on the late game (lets face it not something your lot are ever likely to contribute), Stamb starts spitting poison there and ... you 2 turn up here with posts in a thread where you have never been seen before.
pretty sad that reporting bugs means spitting poison for you
i thought that things changed and you actually use forum to discuss game related things
unfortunately that is not true
its a pity that forum still shows notifications when people whom i blocked quotes me and i opened that messages, will not do that mistake again
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Re: Grunhilde gets antsy - 1941 GC

Post by Erik Rutins »

Zebtucker12 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:29 am
loki100 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:09 am
Zebtucker12 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:43 pm

Thats a shame i hope this kenny stops haunting you so that you can start posting AARs again :)
First rate gaslighting - well done

Kenny is part of your creepy group (you know full well who he is and what he is up to), you have driven most of the abuse that has driven me off the forum.

Odd - for the first time in ages I log onto the tester forum to do a set of bug/data reports on the late game (lets face it not something your lot are ever likely to contribute), Stamb starts spitting poison there and ... you 2 turn up here with posts in a thread where you have never been seen before.
I take that as a compliment that me and kulik are ELITE players that win before 1943 :D ( my VtB posts aside)
Other than that i think you are seing patterns and stuff that are not real. And please dont insult Stamb one of the most dedicated WITE2 testers :cry:
I dont know any Kennys other than the south park one but im pretty sure he aint real.
Consider this an official warning. Trolling any forum member will result in a warning and then a ban. Kenny/Killmaster who you well know has been permanently banned and with very good reason.

I'll also add this for the record, from Kulik's discord regarding your lack of knowledge of what's happened in the past:
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KillmasterAccount.png (54.74 KiB) Viewed 1634 times
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KillmasterAccount3.png (138.84 KiB) Viewed 1608 times
To be clear, if we find any evidence that Killmaster/Kenny was a sock puppet, it will result in more bans.
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Re: Grunhilde gets antsy - 1941 GC

Post by Erik Rutins »

loki100 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:09 am Odd - for the first time in ages I log onto the tester forum to do a set of bug/data reports on the late game (lets face it not something your lot are ever likely to contribute), Stamb starts spitting poison there and ... you 2 turn up here with posts in a thread where you have never been seen before.
I'm not aware of Stamb "spitting poison". I just looked through the recent tester forum threads and I don't see it. If you have evidence of this, please send it to me via PM. Otherwise, the comment regarding Stamb comes down to a form of trolling as well.

The trolling regarding Kenny is a separate issue which I've addressed in my post above. There is no tolerance for anyone trolling you like this.
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Re: Grunhilde gets antsy - 1941 GC

Post by RedBunny »

jfc, like a couple of 14 year old girls. What adult has the time for this crap?
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The End (T207)

Post by loki100 »

T207 – 3 June 1945

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This short report covers the end point of the game with some data if its of any use.

More generally this is my final post on the forum. I have been testing WiTE2 since 2015, I hate to think how many AARs I've written (most now deeply lost in the testing forums). Since release for some reason a small number of players have constantly been sniping at me. I'm fully aware I've not always handled this well but in the end I've put a lot of unpaid free time in and have never claimed to have limitless tolerance. That I've been unfair in some of my judgements in turn is perfectly true.

This reached its worst problem with 'Kenny' (Killmaester or something being one of his forum names) – this is not just limited to this forum or even gaming forums. I've had to lock bits of my wider social media due to his antics.

That it now seems that Kenny is not just part of Zebtucker's group but is actually one of them running a sock puppet really seals it.

I realise that most people, absolutely correctly, don't give a damn about this drama – and I fully agree.

To the game, a few broader things.

When we started our goal was to get as deep as we could. To that end we agreed a rough and ready chess clock model to turn times. I realise that some want to spend a week a turn and get great enjoyment out of it. Equally I personally am just not interested in the opening turns (done it far too many times) and think the game gets really interesting once the players have imposed their own logic on the provided structure (ie really the axis 1942 offensive).

Things that have changed since we started that have a bearing on the result.

Even at speed its inevitable that patching catches up with us. Big ones are:

1 – the loss of Soviet trucks at start (and this would have made a huge diffence once we returned to the 1941 border);
2 – that he could build Gds Rifle Corps off 3 Brigades – which gave him a lot of Gds Corps in the mid-43 phase
3 – we had about 12 turns of the first change to the CPP rules – that was near game breaking as he could ignore losses and move forward a hex a turn bouyed up high CPP – that cost me 12 time points for the Dnipro bend and my grip on the land bridge.
4 – I ended up with about 15% of my infantry divisions on a TOE that meant they had no support squads in 1944 (this was corrected a couple of patches after we started – with hindsight I wish I'd realised the importance and gone back to restart) – but they became very vulnerable to routing and that stripped out both artillery and unit morale as the NM dipped.

Things I think I got right.

1 – the big one was going for the Caucasus and ignoring Stalingrad. There are enough VP there to win and I came within 10 pts. I also found it easy to solve the local supply issues – basically following the approach set out by Gunulf. If I'd stopped my AGC offensive after I took Tula and sent another Pzr Corps down here I think I might have won.
2 – defending.
3 – This battle:

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4 – overloading the W Europe Theatre. We used locked TB (again I just have no interest in 'winning' by manipulating the TB system) but I sent a lot (esp heavy AA) across. This gave me a steady stream of VP, it also meant that by the end of the game that box was about 2 months delayed. In turn that meant I still had Frankfurt as a NSS which protected me from the consequences of losing first Prague and then Vienna.

This shows the VP table after the initiative change. At first I was trying to work out how secure I was for a win vs the HWM test (ie end December 1944, T186). What I was interested in was how many time pts for early recapture the Soviets needed (assuming otherwise historical gains). Since up to late 43 any attempt at Soviet deep exploitation ended in a drubbing (though each win of course cost me too), I wanted to put him in the position where he had to really gamble.

However, by early 1944 (not helped by the CPP rules), it was pretty clear they would match that score. While I won some sectors, especially Kiyev-Lviv and at Minsk, I lost big time (inVP turns) in the Baltics and along the Black Sea.

That phase came down to Warsaw and in the end I was prepared to risk the entirety of AGC in a massive encirclement battle to try and cling to the city. As it was he got past the HWM by 12 pts (16 from the early loss of Warsaw). As is clear an auto-win for April 1945 was never feasible so once the Warsaw battles were over it was mostly all about Berlin.

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The second chart is a set of metrics across the game. The time periods vary as I was trying to follow the internal logic of the game but some are fairly obvious such as using T24 as the end to the axis dominance in 1941 etc. Also by default I kept to 6 month blocks as that reflects the summer/winter game dynamic.

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As in my last MP game, the summer of 1942 saw massive Soviet losses. Actually my opponent had read that AAR and avoided what proved to have been a key mistake. He didn't stand toe to toe and his losses were about 1m less – in the last game the Soviets never recovered from that gap in their manpower. Worth noting how brutal the fighting was from Apri-June 1945. Some of the highest per turn Soviet losses of the war while mine just escalated – basically I opted for a constant hedgehog defensive model and made him fight for every city.

One observation about Soviet supply. There is a fair bit of nonsense flying around that it doesn't matter in the early game so put 'everything on priority #4'. In this game he had horrendous problems once we passed over the 1941 border, turns when his infantry had 9-10 MP and armour <30. With the lower truck allocations now in place, over-doing it early on will lead to a late game stalemate.

I'm sorry the AAR part wasn't maintained as we went along, it was fun to do and write up, but ...
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Re: The End (T207)

Post by Rosencrantus »

loki100 wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:31 pm
4 – I ended up with about 15% of my infantry divisions on a TOE that meant they had no support squads in 1944 (this was corrected a couple of patches after we started – with hindsight I wish I'd realised the importance and gone back to restart) – but they became very vulnerable to routing and that stripped out both artillery and unit morale as the NM dipped.
Dang I also started on the patch where this bug affected my march 44 1st and 2nd wave inf division. Since I have the actual save file on hand, is there anyway to adjust the TOE now using the editor or is it set in stone :cry:.

Regardless, it seemed like you had a good full game and am glad to see a game go from 41-45.
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Re: Grunhilde gets antsy - 1941 GC

Post by gingerbread »

I'm interested in the number of HiWi received until game end, could you publish a production screen with Manpower showing? I'm remembering a game you played and posted in the tester area and in that, the number was close to 1M.
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Re: Grunhilde gets antsy - 1941 GC

Post by M60A3TTS »

If this game had started a couple months later, closer to the release of v.39 and the variable CPP usage, it would almost certainly have been an Axis win.
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Re: Grunhilde gets antsy - 1941 GC

Post by jubjub »

Congrats on making it to the bitter end!
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Re: Grunhilde gets antsy - 1941 GC

Post by Veterin »

Thanks for the AAR. A game to 45 - the holy grail!
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