Showcasing WitE2 #1 - New Ground Combat & Movement Features

[No idea]

I have been playing with the same modded counters for so long that I have fogotten who made them or which was the mod, but they are not so “pointy” on their corners and the colours are not so “plain” but pastel shade (I hope I have explained myself)

I guess there isnt a single way of making the counters look pretty, but the present ones seem outdated if you compare them with the map. They seem a bit out of place, like a modern looking, crystal made chessboard that has wood chess pieces. It is not that wood pieces are wrong, it is just that they dont match

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: governato

One of the things I loved (and well hated a bit of WITE1 was the omniscient role of the player. We were 5 five stars generals with complete freedom of action from Uncles Joseph and Adolf and we also knew everything about our side down to the last bayonet assigned to the most remote battalion...at the same time when we would made decisions at the small unit level knowing everything about the situation on the whole front. This is FUN but also a bit unrealistic. As an example STAVKA did not not know the position of entire ARMIES in July 1941, forget about giving orders or knowing the exact number and morale of their sapper squads...

To my question: are there any changes to the Fog of War and the way the Chain of Command is handled in WITE2 vs WITE to make it more representative of real situations?

we'll come back to this in a later post and the AAR [8D] but you might like the compromise that is in WiTE2 in this respect

[wpurdom]

How does the game model use of Russian RRs in the first 3 weeks of the campaign, when the destruction of RRs was minimal? The first Russian train got through to Minsk on 7/3/1941 (see e.g., https://www.hgwdavie.com/blog/2018/3/9/ ... r-19411945 ) and Riga was comparable.

[CapAndGown]

On the subject of unit counters:
You still have both fort indicators and soft factors in the upper left corner. I would like to suggest that fort markers be moved to the lower left. That way: 1) they will not cover up the soft factors and 2) I will be able to clearly distinguish between brigades and divisions without having to turn off the fort markers.

[Hanny]

ORIGINAL: wpurdom

How does the game model use of Russian RRs in the first 3 weeks of the campaign, when the destruction of RRs was minimal? The first Russian train got through to Minsk on 7/3/1941 (see e.g., https://www.hgwdavie.com/blog/2018/3/9/ ... r-19411945 ) and Riga was comparable.

Pre war planning ( wargames) gave how many Divs they needed to create.https://history.army.mil/html/books/104 ... 104-21.pdf

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a279709.pdf
https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Germany/HB/HB-6.html
https://shron1.chtyvo.org.ua/David_Stah ... st__en.pdf


Pre war logistical planning showed that after 20 days logistical effort, to support an operational bound of 300 miles in which Russian forced were to be destroyed and the war won) supplies would drop to 10-20% of requirments and an operational pause would result, so as to build up supplies for any further offensives.

Maths shows an average of 70 tons per day per formation was all that could be delivered.
If priority was given to the Panzer forces, then 33 formations daily requirements could be meet, leaving nothing for any other formations.

To go beyond the 300 operational bound ment resupply from the RR, first bound ended at Smolensk, RR conversion to German gauge took till August to convert, so 30 days after getting there, the logistical ability to go on from there became present.

The logistics branch of the OKH was blunt in its prediction for another advance from Smolensk to Moscow: ( supply branch of the OKH warned Brauchitsch, Halder and Bock) 'if the intensity of fighting and the operational rythm was to be similar to that of the summer campaign, the supply system would be able to cover a bit over 50% of AGC's needs for a space of time of two weeks. More than that, and the system would collapse and the it would be able to deliver just between 10-20% of the total load of supplies needed'.


The 1941 munition supplies reaching the front by month.Source:Germany and WWII Tome
June :23077 tons
July :101594
August:118855
September: 107870
October:90563
November:68035

Which yields per Div per day.
June 5
July 22
Aug 26
Sept 23
Oct 20
Nov 15

German Munitions production by year.
1940 865000
1941 540000
1942 1270000
1943 2258000


German ammunition expenditure on the Eastern Front in 1941 (22.06-31.12) from KTB OKW Vol.I
37-mm AT gun - 2778000*1.5=4167000
50-mm AT gun - 303000*4.5=1363500
50-mm mortar - 2977000*2.2=6549400
81-mm mortar - 3119000*7.7=24016300
75-mm light infantry gun - 2673000*12=32076000
150-mm heavy infantry guns - 457000*84=38388000
75-mm mountain gun 36 - 83000*6=498000
105-mm light field howitzer - 8297000*33=273801000
150-mm heavy field howitzer - 2441000*96=234336000
105-mm gun - 684000*33=22572000
150-mm gun - 55000*96=5280000
210-mm Morser (heavy howitzer) - 137000*250=34250000

Yes there is a range of AP HE shell weight, but we dont have that data.
Total weight 677297200 lbs, is 338648 tons.
Time frame 192 days, 1763.8 tons a day expended.

Number of Div 146. 12 tons per day per Div.

https://archive.org/stream/HalderWarJou ... l_djvu.txt

From Halder diary we find the following:
Germany in the East required 32,000 tonnes a day, thats 24 train loads a day each AG.This represented only fuel, ammunition, and limited food/fodder, making no allowance for replacement men, horses, or equipment. POL to munition was a 2:1 ratio.

Halder diary, page 203 6th July AGC requires 21 trains a day. Page 242 Wagner gaurentes 14 @6300 tons. Page 246 what that translates into combat loads. "To meet all supply requirements we have available: As of 18 July, 14 trains; 22 trains are necessary to catch up with the three Armies into the areas newly occupied".

Ie between 6th and 18th July 14*12=168 promised, 146 deliverd.

So 6th AGC requires 21*12 days.
QM promises 14 a day, 14*12=168
QM delivers 146/12= 12 a day, =146.


32,000/24 =1333
AGC 21*12 =252*1333=335916 tons.
QM promises 168*1333=223944 tons
QM delivers=146*1333= 194618 tons.

AGC requires 335916
QM delivers 194618

58% of requirement met.

Pre war ,logistical planning and actual outcomes were pretty close.

[Simon Edmonds]

Very informative post Hanny. Thanks for that.

[Hanny]

ORIGINAL: Simon Edmonds

Very informative post Hanny. Thanks for that.

Your welcome, here is some more for you that i hope you find of interest.

Ditto for SU

SU compared to German
50-mm mortars
82-mm mortars
107-mm mortars
120-mm mortars
45-mm anti-tank
57-mm AT
76-mm mountain
76-mm regimental guns
76-mm divisional guns
107-mm guns
122-mm howitzers
122-mm guns
152-mm howitzers
152-mm howitzers-guns
203-mm howitzers

Comes out to 177196.4 tons, and 922 a day.


1942

SU
31078000*.5=15539000 20 mm push. ShVAK
6140000*3.2=19648000 45-mm cannon
50000*13=650000 57 mm cannon
5063000*13=65819000 76 mm regimental
654000*13=8502000 76 mm mountain
10024000*13=130312000 76 mm divisional
599000*48=28752000 122 mm cannon
4306000*48=206688000 122 mm howitzer.
706000*96=67776000 152 mm howitz.
1508000*96=144768000 152 mm howit.-push.
107000*220=23540000 203 mm howit.
13144000*2=26288000 50 mm mines/Morters
15145000*7.7=116616500 82 mm mines
294000*28=8232000 107 mm mines
3008000*35=105280000 120 mm mines
Small arms all small arms weight is 100 per type.
22843700*5=114218500 7.62 mm screw chuck
168770000*2.5=421925000 62 mm Nagan
569322000*5= 28466100007.62 mm TT
11311000*5=56555000 12.7 mm DShK
9154000*6=54924000 14.5 mm PTR

Total weight in lbs 4462643000 in tons 2231321.
Time frame 365 days, 6113 tons a day.

Germany
3953000*1.5=5929500 3.7-cm Pak of all types
1915000*4.5=8617500 5-cm Pak of all types
415000*5=2075000 7.5-cm Pak of all types
6200000*12=74400000 7.5-cm leIG
1116000*93=103788000 15-cm sIG
662000*12=7944000 GebG36
17751000*33=585783000 10-cm leFH18
1210000*40=48400000 10-cm K18
4482000*96=430272000 15 cm sFH18
339000*250=84750000 21-cm Moerser
25000*38=950000 17-cm K in Mrs.Laf.
8647000*4.5=38911500 5-cm mortar Gr.W.36
9605000*7.7=73958500 8-cm mortar Gr.W.34
Small arms
28302750*6=169816500 carbines and machine guns
2164150*3=6492450 pistols and pistols guns

Total weight in lbs 2227870950 in tons 1113935.
Time frame 365 days, 3051 tons a day.


German
1941 1764
1942 3051
SU
1941 922
1942 6113



Some comparisons with basic combat loads.

German ID 1941 Firepower in weight of munitions.
6.2 tons
German Pzr Div 1941
7.4 tons.



SU 1941 ID 5/41 TOE
4.3 tons
SU 1941 ID 7/41 TOE
1.4 tons
SU 1941 ID 12/41 TOE
2.4 tons
SU 1941 ID 3/42 TOE
2.7 tons
SU 1941 ID 7/42 TOE
3 tons
SU 1941 ID 12/42 TOE
4 tons
SU 1941 ID Guards TOE
4.3
SU INF Brigade
1.8 Tons
SU Tnk Brigade
1.5 Tons
SU Mech Bigade
2.1
SU Tank Corps
9.3 ton
SU Mech Corps
12.2 tons
SU Cav Corps
9.7 tons

[Simon Edmonds]

Hanny. Quick question. In 1942 did the Axis Allies use Germany's rail assets to supply their armies or did they have to use their own.

[Hanny]

Germans planned pre invasion a 3 year rail plan, to replace both Poland and Romanian etc rail infrastucture with Otto 1 and Otto 2 German system, to not only make invasion easier, and get Romnaian oil etc to Germany, but to exploit what was conquerd in the SU.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Munitionsverbr ... 3764817909


"The ammunition supplies in the Heeres Munitionsanstalten travel by train or big truck colums to the Army group ammo dumps or direct by train to the Army ammo dumps. From the army ammo dumps it goes by medium or small truck columns first to the Divisionsumschlagsstelle and then by smalll truck columns to the Divionsausgabestelle or direct by medium or small truck column to the Divisionsausgabestelle. The ammunition can also be transported by train from the army ammo dumps to an offload railway station of the division and then by small transport column to the Divisionsausgabestelle. The troop fetches the ammunition from the Divisionsausgabestelle." ( Donat is usefull as he breaks down munitions ( sourced from allies and used by German for instance) into more detail than most authors)

So when Otto was running by 42 ( and the war not won and instead being fought not always where the pre invasion explotation of SU rail lines went to) , the infrastucutre was in place to get volume delivery to Armies, this decreases when the Armies were not close to those converted lines, and had to be unloaded and re loaded onto soviet rolling stock and used on unconverted lines. The greater the Div motorised transport, rather than horse drawn, the better its supply chain was from there.

Hans Potgiesser Die deutsche Reichsbahn im Ostfeldzug is a great resource if you can still find a copy.https://www.amazon.co.uk/Die-Deutsche-R ... B0023S6K5Q

So all Axis forces had to rely to a certain extent on captured SU engines and rail, this was a major bottleneck in the supply chain.

[meyer2_slith]

All these elements sound great.
I'm especially pleased to see the Combat Delay feature. It was my biggest turn-off from the first game seeing a lack of time and space considerations when it came to combat. I couldn't understand how in such a fine and otherwise realistic game, how an infantry unit, for example, could march up from many hexes away, attack and clear an area, and then units next to the cleared area are free to move with full movement factors, when in reality they would have been waiting around expending time (MFs). Great to see the addition! Look forward to the game.

[CJM]

I am very much looking forward to WiTE2, as I love WiTE1, but hope that the designers keep in mind (despite the fact that everyone who buys this game enjoys it partly for its complexity and size) that "fudging" is important -- while a game needs to be realistic, it also needs to be fun.

Remember SPI's "Campaign in North Africa" where it was suggested that one player on the Axis side do nothing but logistics? Some wags called it "Bookkeeping in North Africa." Realistic? Certainly. Fun? Not so much.

Luckily, the computer can do most if not all of the tedious work for you (and you may even punt less important parts of the game to the AI) and this allows a level of detail unheard of when we were moving cardboard counters along a paper map. But still, anything can be taken too far.

That all being said, I am very much in line to purchase a copy as soon as it comes out! Kudos to all who worked on this!

[LarryP]

Thank you all for what you are sharing. It's just making this WiTE and WiTW junkie all the more addicted and waiting impatiently. [&o]

[wodin]

Love the new CPP feature.

[wpurdom]

Pre war logistical planning showed that after 20 days logistical effort, to support an operational bound of 300 miles in which Russian forced were to be destroyed and the war won) supplies would drop to 10-20% of requirments and an operational pause would result, so as to build up supplies for any further offensives.

Maths shows an average of 70 tons per day per formation was all that could be delivered.
If priority was given to the Panzer forces, then 33 formations daily requirements could be meet, leaving nothing for any other formations.

To go beyond the 300 operational bound ment resupply from the RR, first bound ended at Smolensk, RR conversion to German gauge took till August to convert, so 30 days after getting there, the logistical ability to go on from there became present.

The logistics branch of the OKH was blunt in its prediction for another advance from Smolensk to Moscow: ( supply branch of the OKH warned Brauchitsch, Halder and Bock) 'if the intensity of fighting and the operational rythm was to be similar to that of the summer campaign, the supply system would be able to cover a bit over 50% of AGC's needs for a space of time of two weeks. More than that, and the system would collapse and the it would be able to deliver just between 10-20% of the total load of supplies needed'.


The 1941 munition supplies reaching the front by month.Source:Germany and WWII Tome
June :23077 tons
July :101594
August:118855
September: 107870
October:90563
November:68035

Does this means that we're not rebuilding RRs on the map in WITE2? Are we using different mechanics on supply? What does the player do and see as to the suply logistics?

[RedLancer]

Our next showcase will look at logistics. Hanny, whom you quote, has not been involved in WitE2 testing and is quoting from historic sources. You can look forward to finding out that RRs on the map can do more than just repair rail [;)].

[Shupov]

Does rear area administration movement take river bridges into account? It would seem that rear area bridges may still be intact, in which case crossing rivers could incur reduced movement penalties.

[Joel Billings]

Admin movement (which is in your territory) helps account for that somewhat.

[Balou]

"Amateurs study tactics, armchair generals study strategy, but professionals study logistics”.
With all this rail and road logistics stuff plus CPP etc, it sounds like WITE finally is coming closer and closer to a what I was always looking for. Thank you !

[Repsol]

hello...

I'm obviously a bit late with this question/suggestion to have any impact on the release version of the game but...
- Have you guys (the devs) considdered to perhaps add a colour coded road quality overlay function (toggable via a hotkey) that would colour code the various hexes in for example green, yellow and red dependant on the roadquality in the hex ?

This would make it far easier to differenciate the various types of roads for people with somewhat restricted eyesight and also make it possible to see the roadconditions with the map more zoomed out...as well as in areas that are heavely covered with unitcounters...

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Repsol

hello...

I'm obviously a bit late with this question/suggestion to have any impact on the release version of the game but...
- Have you guys (the devs) considdered to perhaps add a colour coded road quality overlay function (toggable via a hotkey) that would colour code the various hexes in for example green, yellow and red dependant on the roadquality in the hex ?

This would make it far easier to differenciate the various types of roads for people with somewhat restricted eyesight and also make it possible to see the roadconditions with the map more zoomed out...as well as in areas that are heavely covered with unitcounters...

such a map mode does indeed exist, a lot of testers use it almost all the time, esp as the Axis side in 1941 as the differences in road quality can be critical