Luftwaffe Patrol using Recon profiles... causing issues when trying to upgrade AC

[DarkHorse2]

The German Luftwaffe Patrol (Naval Air) Aircraft have been classified as Recon and assigned profiles of:
- GE Strat Recon
- GE Tac Recon

This severely limits the AC upgrades available for the AOG and breaks various historical upgrade paths, such as:
He114->Bv138
He114->He115

FYI - WiTE2 is missing the He60

see https://www.ww2.dk/air/recon/aufkl125.html
see https://www.feldgrau.com/ww2-german-see ... gsgruppen/

There is hardly enough Luftwaffe Naval Air Production to warrant two, mutually exclusive, Air Profiles.

Instead, I would change to their own Air Profile like you have for the Soviets (Naval), Romanians (Seaplane), US (Patrol) and the Commonwealth (Patrol).

I would probably use "GE Patrol" to be consistent with the existing German AC Profile naming conventions.

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WiTE2_GE_Tac_Recon.jpg (50.91 KiB) Viewed 654 times

WiTE2_GE_Strat_Recon.jpg (64.36 KiB) Viewed 654 times

[Denniss]

will look into it

[DarkHorse2]

Thank you sir.

I think the issue came about when AukflarGr 125 was all converted to He114s (GE Tac Recon).

Previously, these were all Bv138s (GE Strat Recon).

But now, after taking some losses from the He114s, you can't replace (as nothing in production pool) and you can't convert to any other Patrol AC other than the Ar196 - which there is only 2. (as you see, I cannot convert them to He115s either. )

The way German Patrol profiles have been implemented creates some rather artificial boundaries - boundaries that did not really exist.

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T7

WiTE2_He114_Replace.JPG (21.99 KiB) Viewed 587 times

T7 Production Pool

WiTE2_T7_ACPatrol_Production.JPG (11.51 KiB) Viewed 587 times

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FYI - the He114s really suck and don't last long even against the AI. (just another reason Germans really need the correct LMB Mine loadouts for the Ju88s and He111s to compensate...)

[Denniss]

I believe I made this to separate the short-range (coastal) aircraft from longer- and long-range (Biscaya/Atlantic-going) aircraft.

[DarkHorse2]

If you were going to do this, you should have shared the love with the other countries as well.

Because it is preventing transitions from one profile type to another during upgrades - artificially locking an Air Group to a profile for the duration of the game.

In this instance, all of AukflarGr 125 to the crappy He 114 or Ar 196A-3 - which clearly was not the case.

[Wiedrock]

In this instance, all of AukflarGr 125 to the crappy He 114 or Ar 196A-3 - which clearly was not the case.

He made it so that they get other planes later on via a "rename" as it was historically. And differentiating between Coastal and Sea area makes sense and stops you from using the OP planes for all duties.
So no issue other than small stock of available planes initially (as it was historically). And yes some plane types may be missing, I also hope for further "shitty" sea planes to be added.

I believe I made this to separate the short-range (coastal) aircraft from longer- and long-range (Biscaya/Atlantic-going) aircraft.

I guess 2 of the AGs of the "125th See" need to be changed to BV 138 earlier (both ~3rd week of November or so). So there were less "tactical recon" needed historically.
https://www.ww2.dk/air/recon/aufkl125.html
https://www.luftwaffedata.co.uk/index.p ... gruppe_125
1. Staffel

"11 November 1941: returned to Pillau in early November to rest and refit, and then on 22 November ordered to North Norway. However, the order was changed and instead the Staffel was sent to List on the island of Sylt in the North Sea to convert to the Blohm und Voss BV 138 flying boat. Following conversion, it normally had a complement of 7 to 9 of them. "

3. Staffel

"January 1942: conversion completed, transferred to Varna/Bulgaria. Thereafter, the Staffel normally had a complement of BV 138s that ranged from a low of 8 all the way up to 18 at times. "

See125.png (231.53 KiB) Viewed 540 times

[DarkHorse2]

He made it so that they get other planes later on via a "rename" as it was historically. And differentiating between Coastal and Sea area makes sense and stops you from using the OP planes for all duties.

You two roommates now, you know his intent?

There are not enough German Naval Air to be OP at anything. You must have them confused with the British or Americans, which does not have these multi-profile issues for their Naval Air.

So no issue other than small stock of available planes initially (as it was historically). And yes some plane types may be missing, I also hope for further "shitty" sea planes to be added.

They are crappy, but at least they should be upgradable to other/newer models.... which the He114 clearly are not.

Segregating the German Naval Air pools into two mutual exclusive types to address perceived, unreported OP-ness is the core issue.... something that was not done for the British, Americans or the Soviets.

I guess 2 of the AGs of the "125th See" need to be changed to BV 138 earlier (both ~3rd week of November or so). So there were less "tactical recon" needed historically.

There was really no hard AC profile limitation placed on Naval Air Groups as has been implied via the WiTE2 implementation. (you can easily see this from the variety of AC types serving in the Air Groups)

The He114s were previously moth-balled but called back into service because there were no other Naval Air available at the time. Had nothing to do with "tactical" vs "strategic" roles.

If Germany had ample FW Condors, then Aufkl125 may have just as easily been completely equipped with those.

[Wiedrock]

There are not enough German Naval Air to be OP at anything.

PA planes do their job better than any LB could doing NP for small freight usage.

There was really no hard AC profile distinction as has been implied via the WiTE2 implementation.

The He114s were previously moth-balled but called back into service because there were no other Naval Air available at the time. Had nothing to do with "tactical" vs "strategic" roles.

If Germany had ample FW Condors, then Aufkl125 may have just as easily been completely equipped with those.

I doubt a BV 138 or Condor would've been in any way able to launch from aboard a ship (BoFlGr).
Using this logic Germans would have used Tiger IIs for Police duty (who cares about Fuel).

[DarkHorse2]

You think all of Aufklärungsgruppe 125 He114s relied on ships to be launched?

That would require practically the entire KM to launch 3 staffels of He114s. Even to launch from ships required special catapults for the ship. There were only a limited number of KM Catapult ships. http://www.ww2.dk/articles/catapult.htm

They were not assigned to Aufklärungsgruppe 125 due to their ship launch capability - completely immaterial.

In fact, those He114s were ear-marked for delivery to Romania, but Germany delayed delivery as they had nothing else for Aufklärungsgruppe 125. (they sucked so bad that Germany sold them off every chance they got...)

If Aufklärungsgruppe 125 was all being launched from ships, then why have them based at airbases at all? ... or how was Romania going to use them later?

So, restricting Aufklärungsgruppe 125 to a subset of naval air assets based on the profile of the He114 is as nutty as thinking ship launch capability was a material factor.

[Wiedrock]

You think all of Aufklärungsgruppe 125 He114s relied on ships to be launched?

Somehow you started to understand what you want to understand. The "(BoFlGr)" was there for a reason.

For Divisions the TOEs change as historical (as far as the engine/equipment upgrades can handle it), so there's no reason to give a unit using cheap Sea planes for 2 years historically, a Torpedo bomber from turn 2.

[Rexzapper]

I believe I made this to separate the short-range (coastal) aircraft from longer- and long-range (Biscaya/Atlantic-going) aircraft.

And wouldn't it be more appropriate to call them "Coastal Patrol" and "Long Range Patrol" or something similar? I think it would be more in line with the denomination used in the rest of the countries... although, of course, it is more important to solve the problems with aircraft upgrades that this double classification generates.