Soviet Fronts

[borislav]

Playing GC, early 43 (feb) and I just lost Don Front.
Somehow I missed this or I'm even not sure it was listed in reinforcements/disbands page.
Now I have gap of 80 CP to absorb with other Fronts which it painful.
But then I have seen that another front will disappear soon (around turn 90+ Transcaucaus front).
since there are no replacements till mid summer 43 when Steppe front is coming this is seriously limiting proper chain of command.

Now I'm not sure is this for some game balance reasons or fronts are appearing/renaming depending on map situation and there might be some new fronts coming that I don't see. My frontline is going from Kherson to Kiev and then to Smolensk (in my hands) and then with a bend through Demyansk till Pskov. So yes I'm far from Don and this might be reason why it was disbanded (like in real life it was short lived)

Historically Soviets created/activated fronts as they have seen need for it.
So it is somehow depressing to see shortage of front units while historically at least this was not problem.

[Wiedrock]

I just lost Don Front
Somehow I missed this or I'm even not sure it was listed in reinforcements/disbands page.

It disbands T87, originally named Southeastern Front.

Now I'm not sure is this for some game balance reasons or fronts are appearing/renaming depending on map situation and there might be some new fronts coming that I don't see. My frontline is going from Kherson to Kiev and then to Smolensk (in my hands) and then with a bend through Demyansk till Pskov. So yes I'm far from Don and this might be reason why it was disbanded (like in real life it was short lived)

For balancing reasons both sides face shortages of CP as it seems.
From what I've seen in the Editor (mostly looking at German stuff) HQs are not dependent on any "circumstances" to get Disbanded, it's just set up as it was historically.

[DarkHorse2]

This is an ongoing flaw in the game design of WiTE2 with only a partial and indequate number of Army Group HQs available to Germany,

In contrast to how it is modeled in WiTE2, the German command & control structure was very malleable and allowed for a multitude of command organizations, even if some were short-lived or temporary.

Just on the Eastern Front, these included:

Code: Select all

Army Group North
Army Group Center
Army Group South
Army Group A
Army Group B
Army Group Don
Army Group von Weichs
Army Group Mattenklott
Army Group Kleist
Army Group Seydlitz
Army Group Hollidt
Army Group North Ukraine
Army Group South Ukraine

[DarkHorse2]

Following illustrates some of the current issues with WiTE's very limited number of Army Group CPs afforded for Germany.

Through 04/43, Germany is only afforded 108 CP per Army Group.

That is barely enough for 54 divisions per Army Group, if none are broken down into regiments and you do not use any of the Axis-Allied. (which is truly an absurd restriction...)

3 Army Groups x 54 divisions = 162 divisions total command capacity.

Even considering this extreme minimal usage case, it is easy to see that Germany fails to have enough CPs by Feb 1942.

Code: Select all

Month 	Germany 	Eastern 	Western 	Norway 	Finland 	South-Eastern 	Africa 	Italy
1941
Jan 1941 	78 	28 	67 	7 	1 	9 	0 	0
Feb 1941 	79 	29 	66 	7 	1 	9 	0 	0
Mar 1941 	72 	33 	64 	7 	1 	17 	1 	0
Apr 1941 	62 	46 	53 	7 	1 	28 	1 	0
May 1941 	64 	64 	46 	7 	2 	24 	2 	0
Jun 1941 	38 	93 	51 	8 	3 	14 	2 	0
Jul 1941 	4 	145 	40 	7 	4 	7 	2 	0
Aug 1941 	4 	145 	40 	7 	4 	7 	2 	0
Sep 1941 	1 	146 	43 	7 	6 	7 	2 	0
Oct 1941 	0 	149 	40 	7 	6 	9 	2 	0
Nov 1941 	3 	147 	40 	7 	6 	8 	2 	0
Dec 1941 	6 	146 	42 	7 	6 	9 	3 	0
1942
Jan 1942 	8 	155 	36 	7 	5 	7 	3 	0
Feb 1942 	7 	164 	32 	8 	6 	6 	3 	0
Mar 1942 	8 	167 	32 	8 	7 	5 	3 	0
Apr 1942 	3 	172 	32 	11 	7 	5 	3 	0
May 1942 	2 	170 	34 	11 	7 	5 	3 	0
Jun 1942 	2 	180 	27 	11 	7 	5 	3 	0
Jul 1942 	5 	179 	29 	11 	7 	5 	3 	0
Aug 1942 	3 	176 	36 	11 	7 	6 	4 	0
Sep 1942 	9 	178 	37 	11 	7 	6 	4 	0
Oct 1942 	12 	179 	41 	11 	7 	6 	4 	0
Nov 1942 	16 	181 	45 	11 	7 	6 	4 	0
Dec 1942 	11 	184 	45 	11 	7 	6 	6 	0
1943
Jan 1943 	3 	191 	48 	12 	7 	8 	7 	0
Feb 1943 	1 	195 	49 	12 	7 	9 	8 	0
Mar 1943 	2 	185 	44 	12 	7 	9 	8 	0
Apr 1943 	2 	184 	54 	12 	7 	11 	8 	0
May 1943 	3 	185 	56 	13 	7 	11 	9 	2
Jun 1943 	5 	187 	53 	13 	7 	13 	0 	4
Jul 1943 	6 	188 	52 	13 	7 	15 	0 	6
Aug 1943 	5 	189 	46 	13 	7 	17 	0 	14
Sep 1943 	2 	188 	51 	13 	7 	19 	0 	16
Oct 1943 	3 	186 	52 	13 	7 	20 	0 	18
Nov 1943 	4 	177 	53 	13 	7 	22 	0 	23
Dec 1943 	6 	176 	52 	13 	7 	22 	0 	20

[Zovs]

This is an ongoing flaw in the game design of WiTE2 with only a partial and indequate number of Army Group HQs available to Germany,

In contrast to how it is modeled in WiTE2, the German command & control structure was very malleable and allowed for a multitude of command organizations, even if some were short-lived or temporary.

Just on the Eastern Front, these included:

Code: Select all

Army Group North
Army Group Center
Army Group South
Army Group A
Army Group B
Army Group Don
Army Group von Weichs
Army Group Mattenklott
Army Group Kleist
Army Group Seydlitz
Army Group Hollidt
Army Group North Ukraine
Army Group South Ukraine

All those Army Groups occurred from 1941 till 1944. AG A, and B were formed for offensive operation for Case Blue and AG Don was created due to the fiasco of the Soviet counter offensive at Stalingrad. The rest were created in 1943 or 1944 by that time things were falling apart in shambles.

[borislav]

We see that both sides historically made adjustments to their org structure based on situation.
I believe if restriction would be lifted for both sides in game, it will not affect balance.
But making of new fronts (outside of Historic additions to OOB) should be paid option (50 AP let say).
Naming could be based on some data base of historic names (but not used by historic additions to OOB) or free naming (editable).

As much this game is about historic accuracy it is also about immersion and having units outside of historic structure/grouping feels like deficiency in the game system.

[SigUp]

This is an ongoing flaw in the game design of WiTE2 with only a partial and indequate number of Army Group HQs available to Germany,

In contrast to how it is modeled in WiTE2, the German command & control structure was very malleable and allowed for a multitude of command organizations, even if some were short-lived or temporary.

Just on the Eastern Front, these included:

Code: Select all

Army Group North
Army Group Center
Army Group South
Army Group A
Army Group B
Army Group Don
Army Group von Weichs
Army Group Mattenklott
Army Group Kleist
Army Group Seydlitz
Army Group Hollidt
Army Group North Ukraine
Army Group South Ukraine

But of these HQs all that should be in the game are in the game? You are creating several duplicates here by listing re-named HQs in here as separate commands. Additionally, you are misunderstanding something by listing Von Weichs / Mattenklott / Kleist / Seydlitz / Hollidt as army groups. In German they were called Armeegruppe rather than Heeresgruppe (in the case of Hollidt it's Armeeabteilung). While in English both sort of translate into army group, there is a reason why the Germans called them a different name. Armeegruppe was temporary command that subordinated usually one army under the command of another army command. No new army group command was created, but rather an existing army command was used (in the case of Armeeabteilung, it's essentially the same concept, just one level lower using a corps). Hence, there is no reason to insert a new HQ for these cases.

[Wiedrock]

But of these HQs all that should be in the game are in the game? You are creating several duplicates here by listing re-named HQs in here as separate commands. Additionally, you are misunderstanding something by listing Von Weichs / Mattenklott / Kleist / Seydlitz / Hollidt as army groups. In German they were called Armeegruppe rather than Heeresgruppe (in the case of Hollidt it's Armeeabteilung).

It may be a Source based missinterpretion which is somewhat understandable with all that "inbetween" HQs, similar namings and renamings which historically happened.

Hence, there is no reason to insert a new HQ for these cases.

One needs to look at every individual case. Hollidt as an example could be modelled as an Army (which it became in spring '43 anyways), since they commanded several Corps. To account for it's "inbetween" status an Army HQ with lower CP would be appropriate imo but I am not sure if that can be modelled that easy in game.

[M60A3TTS]

I have no problems with the German CP numbers or organization. There is enough to go around. One thing to make sure you do is max out Army Group North, even if it has little or nothing to do in 1942. Worst case you end up with a corps or two under OKH.