I just got my butt handed to me....

[LoBlo]

Just got a complete butt kicking and I wanted to see if anyone had any suggestions to better tactics.

Here's the setup. 2000 star max on maximum size. Prewarp starting conditions, empire behavior set to chaotic, difficulty one up from default. NPC empires number 11 randomly generated.

I spawn in and during the latter part of my initial expansion find 2 separate Bosarkan empires on two flanks. On my another flank is the hornet empire (I forget their name, starts with a G).

Here's how the booty kicking commenced. The hornets have a reproduction rate like crazy and when combined with the high prevalence of desert planets, they balloon to three times my size very fast and very early . The two Bosarkan empires make an instant alliance and essentially act like one giant empire.

The hornets repeatedly declare war on me despite my efforts to gift them and keep in good graces. Their rapid reproduction produces overwhelming swarms of troop transports that I can't hope to shoot down before dropping their troops on my colonies. Their destroyer escorts take advantage and pick me off while I'm attempting to prioritize the transports.

What adds to injury is that when the hornets declare war, the Bosarkans follow instantly with their own war declaration.... usually within 10 seconds. This is despite the hornets and Bosarkans have no treaty and actually hating each other.

I don't think there's any strategy I could have tried that would have worked in that scenario. Three violently hostile empires on my doorsteps with the largest being erratically violent and 3 times my size.

Anyone got any ideas that you think would have worked?

[LordMM]

First of all. Its nice to hear some nice butt kicking players receive every now and then.

I had a similar game where I was surrounded by Dhayuts and Gizzureans on both sides, both top two empires as well. I ended up researching the Dhayut diplomacy Techs, which gives you a bonus. That was in addition to the money, tech, ruins I was giving to please them until I got a trade agreement with them. Gizzureans are very very difficult top please. Might have easier time pleasing the Boskarans.

[Es78]

Don´t know how far you got into the game.
But an early expansion helps alot. It´s not as much the size of the enemy but there tech level that matters. I always play on hardest difficulty to get a challange and do it the same way evry time.
Get good jump drive asap. build scouts big time, i usualy have 5 scouts before i get my first good drive. Then i add another 15 scouts and as my economy growes ill add even more, untill i have around 100 scouts.
Your goal should always be to discover research sites and occopy them as soon as possible.
Along with that, research the tech that enables further expolration of planets, to increase your likelyhood of finding research spots.
If you do this, no matter what, you should be ahead in research quite fast and be able to produce defensive fleets that will win all engagements.
Along with some terraforming tech to boost your income your a good way to become invincible.

The scouts also gives you another advantge, trading a 100.000+ location for free, will give you a huge diplo bonus, that you can use to make trade arrangement -> non agression pact etc... with, even against the most hostile races.

[iancmtaylor]

Gizureans are extremy OP, they need to be nerfed. There's always one of theur empires at the top of the leaderboard, leaving everyone else in the dust.

They are the endgame threat lol

[LoBlo]

Thanks,

So this conversation gave me some ideas. I had been gifting the Hornets but I never made any treaties. So I loaded up a previous save and concentrate on getting a NonAggressive and LTA. I was previously paying enough to be "neutral" but that wasn't enough to keep them from war declarations.

I also didn't realize what was making them angry. They were expanding into systems in which I had mining setups and then claiming I was trespassing against them. I had to keep scuttling previous sites as they expanded.

So with the new strategy I was able to keep the hornets from war declarations and was able to survive to the middle game (the part where everyone is locked into borders and only conquest gains territory).

In the middle game the Bosarkans found themselves out expanded and didn't have the planets to complete with the Ikkuros colonization advantages so I was able to declare war on each, without the hornets interference, and conquered them.

I'm in the late middle game and the hornets, humans, and teekan are all leaps and bounds ahead of everyone. Curiously the humans are the dominant faction. I'm not sure how they achieved it. I wish there was a way to get these giants to start warring against each other. I may bide my time on the sidelines and then pounce while they've weakened each other

It's interesting to say the least

[LoBlo]

Gizureans are extremy OP, they need to be nerfed. There's always one of theur empires at the top of the leaderboard, leaving everyone else in the dust.

They are the endgame threat lol

Yes, I'm getting to understand that. Hornets and Teekans have such an advantage with their fast reproduction and desert homeworld type.

But "balance" is a strange modern gaming concept. In the old days the NPCs were always expected to have the advantage and made it more challenging. I find the need to 'balance' weapon types, or factions isn't necessary and its actually more fun is its not. It demands more creative strategy.

lb

[GHerr]

Don´t know how far you got into the game.
But an early expansion helps alot. It´s not as much the size of the enemy but there tech level that matters. I always play on hardest difficulty to get a challange and do it the same way evry time.
Get good jump drive asap. build scouts big time, i usualy have 5 scouts before i get my first good drive. Then i add another 15 scouts and as my economy growes ill add even more, untill i have around 100 scouts.
Your goal should always be to discover research sites and occopy them as soon as possible.
Along with that, research the tech that enables further expolration of planets, to increase your likelyhood of finding research spots.
If you do this, no matter what, you should be ahead in research quite fast and be able to produce defensive fleets that will win all engagements.
Along with some terraforming tech to boost your income your a good way to become invincible.

The scouts also gives you another advantge, trading a 100.000+ location for free, will give you a huge diplo bonus, that you can use to make trade arrangement -> non agression pact etc... with, even against the most hostile races.

How do you balance rapid expansion and having a sufficient military. I feel like I often want to go a few more years before I build up my military and focus on expansion and infrastructure only to get attacked unexpectedly by someone and it going poorly.

[LoBlo]

How do you balance rapid expansion and having a sufficient military. I feel like I often want to go a few more years before I build up my military and focus on expansion and infrastructure only to get attacked unexpectedly by someone and it going poorly.

Related to that, I find that if I'm swarmed with pirates too early, then I might as well quit the game. The pirates are going to tie up your resources while others expand rapidly and leave you behind. That's why I only play with scare pirates set at a distance.

lb

[iancmtaylor]

Don´t know how far you got into the game.
But an early expansion helps alot. It´s not as much the size of the enemy but there tech level that matters. I always play on hardest difficulty to get a challange and do it the same way evry time.
Get good jump drive asap. build scouts big time, i usualy have 5 scouts before i get my first good drive. Then i add another 15 scouts and as my economy growes ill add even more, untill i have around 100 scouts.

How do you balance rapid expansion and having a sufficient military. I feel like I often want to go a few more years before I build up my military and focus on expansion and infrastructure only to get attacked unexpectedly by someone and it going poorly.

I always go for getting territory, strategically picking colonies, even if they are bad, just to get ground.

I pay pirates and dont build a military at all until i am touching someones borders. If you give pirates gifts in the negotions screen, and are patient. Eventually they will request a non agression treaty, which means they wont attack you, and you dont have to pay tribute for that.

The only military i will build are about a dozen frigates with some weapon and no point defense, stictly for microing them to kill creatures that are near things that i want.

By the time i know all of my neighbors, and where their borders are, im usually finishing off the economy techs- mining speed, exploration sensors, transport and fuel capacity, administration, civilian ships and stations, hyperdrives.

When ive finished getting those up to level 3 ( remember the first level is zero), i will start on engines, shields, armor, weapons and troops. Again, to level 3. This gives me destroyers. I will build a dozen or two destroyers before im finished with all these techs, then upgrade them again when i finish the above to level 3, such that i have some ships in case someone decides to go to war- this is about the time that other empires will start eating eachother (well, assuming you expanded into enough territory to get a research station advantage, otherwise, throw out this advice and just go military and eat a neighbor).

After ive gotten all those techs to level 3, i start to go for colonization techs for the species in my empire, and economy techs again.

____

If i have no bugs on my borders i will just turtle and go for techs while letting my colonies become profitable. When you get a comfortable yearly income, build you military some more, especially troops. Mostly infantry, a few tanks on your homeworld. Enough to fill 4 troop transports. Then when your income grows to a comfortable level again, start colonizing sub par worlds- ones that you will improve with terraforming. When you do get terraformers, wait till the second level, domt bother with the first. Build these second level ones on your top 2 or 3 colonies. Then build them in waves throughout the game, depending on how much you can spare. Going down the list from biggest colonies first. These will massively increase your income.

And just keep ignoring military tevhs and building ships unless you have a neighbor that goes to war with you.

At any point in this, when someone does go to war with you, go look at the tech tree. Any low hanging military techs research immediately. Build a dozen or two of your current frigates or destroyers- you can upgrade them later. If things are going well, you will probably have a whole tech level of military techs that you can research for somewhere between less than a year, to less than a month each. This is because youve literally ignored them and have gotten 1-3 levels ahead in non military techs while waiting for a war. Then you can just snap them up quickly with your super charged tech base and economy.

Let the enemy take a small border colony, let them destroy stations (just make sure your scientists are not on a research station thats in harm's way.) If they take a small colony, it just means you have one less colony's worth of support costs to pay, and they take that burden. Same for mining stations- each one that has to be rebuilt is just money in your pocket. Profit from your wars. War weariness is mostly troops and ships, unless that take a big colony. So if you avoid their military for a couple of years while you build and tech up yours, you can then easily sweep them away and retake your ground, plus some. Since you should have built a dozen or two frigates and maybe destroyers by this point, and a few dozen troops, you will still be able to defend your bigger colonies.

When you have finished that tech level(s) worth of military techs, refit your ships and go smash them. And dont forget to level your troops. The +25% attack/def for infantry and tanks is very important. That gives a total of +35% for infantry at a reasonable point in the game, and even more later. depending on your race, and who your enemy is, that might make your infantry good enough to easily take large enemy colonies with only those 4 transports full of infantry. ( each will hold 5 or 6 infantry, and make sure you have assault pods to drop them all at once)


____
So uh... tldr-

dont build a military lol

Only a few ships and troops, to act as a seed to build your real military, when your neighbors get hungry.

Like i said though, this isnt really relevant if you cant expand enough to get an advantage in research. Then it depends on who you are and who your neighbors are. Bugs are simple and easy, just war on your neighbors and take their colonies. Others need to be more strategic and thoughful. But the optimal play is the same in the end- if you have a tech advantage- let it grow and snowball until you can automate the game for two hours and come back to no other empures remaining. If you dont have a tech advantage- eat your neighbors until you do have one, then, see the above.

[GHerr]

i'll give this a try. Thanks.

[rustyj]

Firstly I've had considerable success in Chaotic with expansion prioritised over fleets, as mentioned above. At around 15 colonies there seems to be a dramatic fall off in declarations, even when the antonists fleets are larger. I haven't found a better explanation than the number of colonies, since economically I'm usually way behind, because I've focussed on expansion.

I should add, I don't have Shaktari expansion, so these tactics may be mute.

I always begin with destroyers, so my fleet development is quite delayed.

Diplomacy is still the best counter. I've never found much success in getting treaties out of antagonistic factions till mid to late game. I take the time to get 2 or 3 tier diplomacy research ASAP (this also helps with winning over independent colonies populated with Giz, Bos etc. And send diplomats to the offending factions - as many as possible.

And I think we should have better warning of a declaration, even at Chaotic where I've had declarations at 0 rep, certainly in the neutral range. I'm okay with increased aggression parameters, and rapid deterioration of rep, but I think there still should be a reliable indicator. If a race is neutral, why has it declared war?

As already mentioned, pay off pirates (I keep them around to antagonise other factions and keep factions away from independent colonies), don't garrison planets till your ready for troop transports or can really afford the drag on economy (because there is no pirate threat since they have been paid off, and you're not likely to have enough in any case to counter an invasion.)