StB: The German Conquest of Leningrad, 1943?

[Beethoven1]

This AAR is for a Stalingrad to Berlin scenario game I am playing against cameron88. We are currently on turn 17, in March 1943.

The scenario we are using is a slightly edited version of the official scenario which cameron88 and I made, mostly for quality of life reasons to make the initial turns of the scenario smoother as the game transitions into a situation where players are in control of what is happening rather than the initial setup. He did more of the work overall, I edited some stuff on the Soviet side mostly. The main changes with respect to that are that units start off un-frozen, and armies/fronts start off with semi-reasonable chains of command, so that e.g. the Western Front is not 3x overloaded on turn 1, a lot of support units start off at high command for easier distribution, etc. I will mention some of the other specifics as we are going along in the AAR, but that is the main point of the changes.

For this AAR, I want to show what is happening in the game generally, but in particular I want to focus on Leningrad, because I am doubtful that the Leningrad area is really balanced how it should be, and so possibly the devs might be interested in adjusting some things based on seeing this. Jubjub is also playing another game as Soviets against cameron88 where as far as I am aware, similar things are happening in Leningrad, and jubjub thinks he may lose Leningrad as a result. So this situation with Leningrad that we will see is not an aberration.



If Germany wants to take Leningrad in the StB scenario, apparently they can and if it is possible for the Soviets to stop that from happening at all, then it takes a gargantuan all-out effort. This is particularly surprising since the StB scenario begins in November 1942, and historically Leningrad was relieved in January 1943. So one would think it might be fairly easy for the Soviets to relieve Leningrad, and certainly not easy for the Axis to succesfully blockade it and take it.

A corollary to this is that if the Axis manages to cut off Leningrad in a 1941 Grand campaign, and if they do their naval interdiction properly and is willing to use their planes to fly interdiction missions, they should ALWAYS be able to take Leningrad.

And now to turn 1!

[Beethoven1]

Turn 1 (Nov 19, 1942):

In the north, I started out by starting the construction of 4 airfields. I was expecting Germany would probably do interdiction over Lake Ladoga, so I wanted to be in a good position to respond. 4 new airfields, seems like a lot... right? Well, we will see... Also note I had the units near Leningrad set to refit. From the beginning of the game, I was planning to attack to try to relieve Leningrad sometime soonish in part because I knew to expect the German interdiction from previous games. However, some other things such as Stalingrad had to take priority first before troops could be freed up.



Some of the changes the modified scenario makes are visible near Velikie Luki. First, there are level 3 forts at the start for Soviets (and for Axis) rather than level 2. This makes ahistorical Axis offensives at the very start of the scenario more difficult. Second, in the original scenario Velikie Luki can be very easily taken (ahistorically) by Soviets on turn 1. So we changed it to have a level 4 fort and be garrisoned by a full infantry division. Third, in the original scenario there are large gaps in the front line with no units at the start in this area. While that may be historical, it is problematic in terms of gameplay if you can simply walk forward with a few units against no opposition and gain a significantly better position.



My first move was to attack Velikie Luki. My objective was not to take it, but to lower the fort level so I could take it at some point in the future. However, the attack actually almost succeeded, so we actually still might not have made it difficult enough to take Velikie Luki on turn 1! One problem with the modified scenario may be that Soviets can't (probably) surround Velikie Luki on turn 1, which they did do historically. Although that is a minor short term thing, after a number of turns, as we will see, the situation can go wherever the players let it go.


In the center, my priority was to strengthen and straighten out the salient near Kaluga, so that I could stay there and keep it a thorn in the German side without having to withdraw too much. In the original scenario, most of the Soviet units start frozen in this area, and Axis can ahistorically attack here with success. So I did a few attacks to ensure that the salient could hold strong in future turns.



In the Stalingrad area, I did encircle Stalingrad, but I didn't make a serious attempt to try to hold the pocket with tanks/mech.



I did this for several reasons:

1) I wasn't entirely sure that if I tried to hold the pocket that I could without getting units counter-encircled. Although my units were unfrozen, German ones were also, so they could more easily bring reinforcements to try to break out Stalingrad.
2) It isn't actually such a bad thing to rout as many Romanians and Italians as possible.
3) I thought it might end up better balanced over the long run and potentially more fun in summer 1943 if Germany withdrew from Stalingrad and had some more troops to be able to form a coherent front line.
4) Soviets can potentially advance more quickly without encircling Stalingrad, if they get Stalingrad immediately without a fight, so the railyard can be prepared and you can push into the Don Basin before mud.
5) Although the Germans should have been able to escape if they wanted to, I thought could hopefully get in some easy shots against German units while they were withdrawing without forts.

[Beethoven1]

Turn 2, (Nov 26, 1942):

Near Leningrad, Germany did an attack against a level 3 fort swamp hex which had ~100 supposed defensive CV with 3 divisions defending. This was an early warning sign of what was to come...



Only one little attack of opportunity in the center. The purpose was just to try and make sure Germany was somewhat nervous about Rzhev, but I was not really planning to attack much in this area.

I railed some Airborne Brigades towards Velikie Luki. Why? Because in a couple of turns they will turn into Airborne Divisions, and right now since they are only brigades they can be railed in using relatively little freight. I was also moving some of the strong units in the eastern side of the Toropets salient west towards Velikie Luki.



Germany did a couple of attacks around the Kalinin salient, I continued trying to simply solidify and hold the salient.



Somewhat to my surprise, cameron88 opted not to withdraw the infantry from Stalingrad (although he did withdraw the tanks and motorized), despite being given the chance to do so. So I decided to simply slowly advance along the flanks, in such a way as to be careful to make sure I was not too exposed to counterattacks.

You can also see another one of the changes we made in the scenario. Stalingrad (and South Stalingrad) has a city fort.



Germany withdrew most units from the Caucasus, except for some infantry to slow the Soviet advance a bit. However, all the cavalry to the north would soon threaten the flanks:

[Beethoven1]

Turn 3, (Dec 3, 1942):

The German interdiction began over Lake Ladoga. It takes a turn or two for Germany to move planes and get stuff set up for proper interdiction. For this initial turn at least, the interdiction was not powerful enough to isolate Leningrad - yet. But that would change soon... Incidentally, I had started running my own interdiction a turn or two beforehand.



Just two attacks, taking the slow/steady/methodical approach:



Continued back and forth, ironing out the lines of the salient:



Stalingrad was re-isolated, although I was still not really trying to hold the encirclement, he could have gotten some troops out if he wanted still, most likely.



Cavalry running amok in open country, while other units stay back to gain CPP. Given that the Germans were only lightly defending, I had sent my Guards rifle corps in this area to reserve for redeployment:



One other thing of note. What was I spending my AP on? For the first several turns I was spending nearly all my AP on recruiting new Naval Infantry Brigades. Why? Because as soon as you hit January 1943, the build limit drops way down and Soviets can no longer build more. So since they are very good as flexible attachments, I wanted to max them out while I still could. In addition I was maxing out the Ski Brigades and Ski Battalions.

This is partly the reason I was not attacking particularly aggressively, to try and keep losses down early on to support this buildup. I also wanted to limit my use of tanks/AFVs during winter, to save them for summer when they would take less weather related losses. A nice aspiration, but one which would soon have to go more or less out the window...

Another part of the reason for taking it slow was also that I thought (incorrectly) that I would get another assault front in 1943. However, that changed in the patch that nerfed assault fronts.

[Beethoven1]

Turn 4, (Dec 10, 1942):

In the Leningrad area, something quite unexpected occurred. Germany attacked successfully across the river into Leningrad, even despite it not being isolated! In the modified scenario, one of the things we had changed was to increase the fort levels here to level 4. You can see level 4 forts for the Soviets in the cut off Leningrad area, and also for Germany on the south side of Leningrad. The purpose of this was to ensure that Leningrad would not fall to direct assault, but rather had to be sieged. I had not changed the deployment of the Soviet units there at all since the start of the game, so this was the same way as in the initial scenario setup. It is also the same way as in the original StB scenario, except in the original scenario the forts are level 3 rather than 4, so Germany can attack into Leningrad even more easily than was the case here at the very start of the scenario.

If the game devs do not intend for Leningrad to be takeable in direct assault in this way, then perhaps some things should be reconsidered, at least for the StB scenario in particular.



From my perspective, it is not really plausible that Germany could have taken Leningrad by direct assault in November 42, given that in reality Leningrad was re-connected in January '43. If Germany actually could have done so, surely they would have - and probably done so quite a bit prior to November '42. So to me at least, something appeared wrong with the scenario design for this to be possible...

I also had thought that it was impossible to reinforce the defense of Leningrad with additional units, which if true would make it 100% a scenario design issue. However, cameron88 pointed out that I could airlife rifle brigades into Leningrad. Although that sounds silly (in reality I would guess many of the troops defending Leningrad were recruited from the Leningrad area itself), it works in terms of game mechanics. Also, this made me realize I could make rifle brigades as support units and transfer their HQ to one in the Leningrad area, which also achieves the same thing - albeit through weird mechanics.

After we discussed this, cameron88 agreed to withdraw from that hex for now and give me time to build back the forts up to level 3. In the meantime, I could transfer rifle brigades to Leningrad to reinforce the defense as much as I thought was necessary, and this would also give me some time to attempt to gather troops for a breakout operation. After this, it would be legitimate for Germany to attack Leningrad and take it if they could. I had been planning on gathering troops for a breakout operation anyway, but this accelerated the time table.

Although I didn't really think it should be necessary to reinforce Leningrad from day one of the scenario start, and that if it was necessary then it was a scenario design problem, I could certainly understand why Germany would want to take Leningrad, and I agree it should be legitimate for them to try. Whether it should really be possible, however, is another question, in particular at this stage of the game in this scenario.

Regardless, I thought it would be interesting to play out and see how it went. This would then make good material for an AAR and I thought if we reported the results of the game, it might inform possible balance changes regarding Leningrad and naval interdiction mechanics. Hence the AAR!


In the Stalingrad area, Germany encircled some of my troops. I launched a very large attack which broke it out at the cost of a lot of AFV losses for both of us:




There were only 3 or so attacks elsewhere, all of which were inconsequential and I won't bother showing.

[Beethoven1]

Turn 5, (Dec 17, 1942):

The first of my Guards Rifle Corps from the Caucasus arrived in Leningrad (at least during my air phase). German interdiction was still not powerful enough to isolate Leningrad, I think he had something he forgot to tweak in the settings still or something to make enough planes fly. I also think what may have been happening is my planes were not flying as much in the German interdiction phase, because they would all be shot down and/or use 100% of their air miles during my air phase, so there were less left over for the German air phase.



I took Kholm. Why? Because I figured I should be sending the Guards Rifle corps to the north towards Leningrad, and Kholm was on the way. I had previously been planning to try to attack Velikie Luki again soon.



It was a quiet turn in Stalingrad. I merely was trying to hold position and hold the pocket more or less. Germany clearly had some strong mobile forces gathered. Of course, so did I, and I had been sending a bit more tanks/mech from the western front also.



To the south, my cavalry was increasingly threatening the German flank. You can't defend against something - even very low CV cavalry - with nothing. One of the rails was cut, which would make any prospective relief operation that might still be launched of Stalingrad more difficult for Germany.

[Beethoven1]

Turn 6, (Dec 24, 1942):

Turn 6 was the first one played with the 1.02.06 beta patch (the one that buffed artillery). Things in the Leningrad front started to really heat up this turn. Much to my surprise, Germany managed to successfully attack a level 3 fort swamp hex, which was defended by a Rifle Corps and 2 additional divisions. This was likely due to how OP the artillery was, but in any case cameron88 said he had not expected to take the hex, but was trying to reduce the fort level so he could take it subsequently. Meanwhile further to the south, I began some of my own attacks against Luftwaffe units and regiments that were further south near Novgorod. The Guards units there are Guards Rifle divisions that I sent up from Demyansk.

I didn't have enough MP to move into Novgorod and occupy it, however. As an aside, the concept that you can take a city but not have units inside it to defend from counterattack seems a bit odd. So Germany could just walk back into it next turn. Usually this is not a problem because usually you should have a unit that can move into a newly captured city, but on occasion it can be. This would be particularly problematic if you take a VP city this way, because then the very next turn the enemy could walk back into the city against no opposition and get 6 bonus VP from re-taking the city early...

But this is most likely to be a problem in the specific circumstances here, where movement costs are very high due to the combination of rough terrain, the winter weather, and ZOC all raising movement costs greatly, so that many units can only move a single hex per turn. Still, it seems like maybe there should be some sort of special rule that if you take a city - or at least a VP city, that you should be able to move units in to actually occupy it (?)



I also had been building more airfields:



Seems like a bit excessive that Soviets should really need to build this many airfields for naval interdiction (?). But one thing I noticed is the airfields in Leningrad/Pavlovo were not usable. Planes based in those airfields would not fly over to the other side of Lake Ladoga to staging bases there to fly interdiction over Lake Ladoga. Moreover, of course it was a waste of supply to use the limited freight in Leningrad for airplane bombs, better to use the freight on the other side. The airfields were also constructing quite slowly.

I should also mention that by this point, Leningrad was getting no supply, and had not been for a few turns. Although I had countered the interdiction enough to make it neutral in one hex north-east of Osinovets during my air phase, during the German air phase Germany had the +2 interdiction.

For reference, here was the air/interdiction situation at the start of turn 6 before I did the Soviet air phase, with Leningrad isolated (and not receiving supply). It had been like this for a couple turns already iirc. I would have liked to have more planes, but didn't have airfield space for more yet.





Various additional Guards units were on the way up towards Leningrad. In addition to these there were a few more elsewhere on the move. I even went so far as to move another air HQ up towards Leningrad, because this air HQ had a leader with 6 air skill, and I was going to try to use the higher air skill for interdiction to see if it made any difference.




Some back and forth attacks/counterattacks in the Stalingrad area. I was able to rout this Panzer division because I could surround it with cavalry and the motorized brigade before attacking it, so it had nowhere to retreat and therefore automatically routs if it loses a battle:



In the Caucasus, the cavalry started to run into some opposition. However, Axis unit density was pretty low, so although they could counterattack and rout a few units, we could simply go around them and cause... problems... Note that I am not using cavalry corps, I broke the cavalry corps down into divisions. They have basically 0 CV, but who cares, they can convert empty hexes.

[tyronec]

If Germany wants to take Leningrad in the StB scenario, apparently they can and if it is possible for the Soviets to stop that from happening at all, then it takes a gargantuan all-out effort. This is particularly surprising since the StB scenario begins in November 1942, and historically Leningrad was relieved in January 1943. So one would think it might be fairly easy for the Soviets to relieve Leningrad, and certainly not easy for the Axis to succesfully blockade it and take it.

A corollary to this is that if the Axis manages to cut off Leningrad in a 1941 Grand campaign, and if they do their naval interdiction properly and is willing to use their planes to fly interdiction missions, they should ALWAYS be able to take Leningrad.

This came up during testing and my conclusion was that Axis could generally take Lenningrad during StB, even without Naval Interdiction. Just get across the river and then push forwards to Osinovets. Maybe a major Soviet effort could stop them, but even that is a high risk strategy for the Soviets and detrimental to the offensive elsewhere.

I would question the validity of Naval Interdiction causing 'out of supply' in the game. Axis did not do it successfully at Lenningrad, Odessa or Sevastapol and the Soviets did not do it against the Courland pocket. As far as I understand, and no doubt someone on the Forum will have better historical knowledge, Axis made some effort to interdict supplies at Lenningrad and Sevastapol but only with a limited effect while they didn't even try much at Odessa - presumably because they realised it was beyond their capabilities. Yet in the game it is standard practice to use it in this way.

Something more appropriate might be for Naval Interdiction to reduce supplies and cause interdiction losses to units retreating by sea.

[AlbertN]

I believe the main issue with Leningrad for the Axis was that they did not wanted to bleed to take it, not that they could not take it.
Leningrad at that stage was pratically starved and having a thin lifeline across a frozen lake. The rationing there was severe!
Germans took Stalingrad that had a constant flow of troops and reinforcements pratically non hindered over some months. Leningrad was under siege since very long. The fact is that past '41 no moves were made to take it. Not that it was some impregnable fortification.

On the other hand to pretty much have to frontally storm places such as Odessa or Sebastopol as the game is now ... without the effects of sea isolation, I feel that it is pratically an impossible feature or a far too costy one.

[Gam3r]

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Germans took Stalingrad that had a constant flow of troops and reinforcements pratically non hindered over some months. Leningrad was under siege since very long.

But Leningrad have coastal artillery and battleships.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

If Germany wants to take Leningrad in the StB scenario, apparently they can and if it is possible for the Soviets to stop that from happening at all, then it takes a gargantuan all-out effort. This is particularly surprising since the StB scenario begins in November 1942, and historically Leningrad was relieved in January 1943. So one would think it might be fairly easy for the Soviets to relieve Leningrad, and certainly not easy for the Axis to succesfully blockade it and take it.

A corollary to this is that if the Axis manages to cut off Leningrad in a 1941 Grand campaign, and if they do their naval interdiction properly and is willing to use their planes to fly interdiction missions, they should ALWAYS be able to take Leningrad.

This came up during testing and my conclusion was that Axis could generally take Lenningrad during StB, even without Naval Interdiction. Just get across the river and then push forwards to Osinovets. Maybe a major Soviet effort could stop them, but even that is a high risk strategy for the Soviets and detrimental to the offensive elsewhere.

...

Tyrone took Leningrad vs me in testing, too late I worked out a solution.

basically poke as many rifle brigades in as you can in their support role. In turn they boost the effectiveness of the weakened rifle divisions as attachments and can act as emergency reinforcements to replenish those formations.

this commitment should work in the campaign too unless an Axis player imposes the siege very early (before you start to get the brigades) - if they manage that then they deserve to take the city.

[Beethoven1]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

This came up during testing and my conclusion was that Axis could generally take Lenningrad during StB, even without Naval Interdiction. Just get across the river and then push forwards to Osinovets. Maybe a major Soviet effort could stop them, but even that is a high risk strategy for the Soviets and detrimental to the offensive elsewhere.

I would question the validity of Naval Interdiction causing 'out of supply' in the game. Axis did not do it successfully at Lenningrad, Odessa or Sevastapol and the Soviets did not do it against the Courland pocket. As far as I understand, and no doubt someone on the Forum will have better historical knowledge, Axis made some effort to interdict supplies at Lenningrad and Sevastapol but only with a limited effect while they didn't even try much at Odessa - presumably because they realised it was beyond their capabilities. Yet in the game it is standard practice to use it in this way.

Something more appropriate might be for Naval Interdiction to reduce supplies and cause interdiction losses to units retreating by sea.

Interesting. I would tend to agree that naval interdiction seems to be the most powerful of all the air missions, and likewise I am not entirely sure that really makes sense. Ground attack used to be pretty powerful, but is a lot less so now that it randomly changes to land interdiction much of the time. To me, it seems like your suggestion on adjusting it has merit.

I'll keep posting the rest of the AAR to show how it works out, but... spoiler... the entire Soviet air force is going to be destroyed over Lake Ladoga, doing nothing but naval interdiction without being able to counter the naval interdiction and get supply through. Even the U-2s will eventually find a use, being sacrificed en masse to Poseidon, the well known God of Lake Ladoga.

[Jango32]

How will hexes that have a connection to ports (or port hexes themselves) become isolated then? It would be incredibly frustrating for defenders in such areas to simply rout away instead of surrendering.

[Beethoven1]

Turn 7, (Dec 31, 1942):

More and more Guards units continued to make their way towards Leningrad, and in addition, Malinovsky's Guards Army was railed up as well. Various shock armies were also migrating up to Leningrad, with preparations to make command changes to give them good generals. I made a few attacks, 3 successful and 1 failed in this case:



I also started doin some attacks near Velikie Luki to try and put some pressure on and hopefully limit how many reinforcements Germany would be able to send up to Leningrad. All 5 attacks here were against Luftwaffe units and Security divisions.

I did 2 attacks here, trying to expand the salient. In retrospect possibly I should have already sent the Guards units up towards Leningrad. But at this stage that still seemed unreasonable, surely I was already sending enough?



Germany did some more counterattacks near Stalingrad. I did none. I was merely looking to hold my position and build up CPP and forts while the cavalry further south put additional pressure on the German flanks, and while I gained CPP in some cases for low CPP units.



And here is that additional pressure, trying to make the German position near Stalingrad increasingly tenuous and force them to send units to save their units in the Caucasus rather than keep trying to attack and potentially break out Stalingrad...

[Beethoven1]

Turn 8, (Jan 7, 1943):

As 1943 arrives...



Yet more interdiction.

Yet more Guards units continually arriving to join the Leningrad breakout offensive.

Yet more Soviet attacks taking a handful more hexes here and there. The occasional German counterattack taking back a hex.

A thousand Soviet planes deployed, dedicated solely to air interdiction over Lake Ladoga.

That is continually not enough, and Leningrad continues to receive 0 supply.

Airfields are full, more planes cannot be deployed.

More airfields are continually constructing, but they construct very slowly. In particular, any airfields in swamp and heavy forest hexes construct extremely slowly. And level 2 airfields construct very slowly in light forest hexes. But I am out of light forest hexes within reasonable range to construct more airfields in, so it's gonna be swamp airfields or nothing...



For example, here is the beautifully named Airfield #1. You can tell by its name that I started building it at the very beginning - in fact on turn 1. It has been continually constructing since the start of the scenario. It did finish the first level of airfield, and as soon as it did, construction began on upgrading it to level 2. But it is still only 12% done...

You can also see in the screenshot the similarly beautifully named Airfield #12. The fact that we are already up to Airfield #12 tells you something about how many airfields we are constructing (ALL of which are in the Leningrad area). Germany has also started contributing to the construction fun, with Airfield #8 being constructed near Lake Ladoga.



In Velikie Luki, there are a LOT of routed Luftwaffe units. My troops in this area by this point had plenty of time to build up CPP and supply and were ready to attack. I figured I needed to put as much pressure here as I could to ensure none of these units could be sent up to help defend Leningrad. It was also 1943, so German national morale should now be lower.



Even more Guards units are on the way up to Leningrad. Some walking, some coming by rail.



How's the air situation going? Well, now that at least some of my airfields have finished constructing, I am able to fly somewhat more planes. As a result, my total airplane count has started plummeting at an alarming rate:



Nevertheless, we resolve to continue to maximally throw in every possible plane over Lake Ladoga, until we either run out of airfields, the capacity to construct airfields, or planes. Or until the Germans run out of planes, or until Leningrad is broken out - whichever of these possibilities comes first.

I should also mention that by this point (and in truth, starting in much earlier turns), I had also been moving a lot of AA up to Leningrad, in particular by the port at Osinovets. I had also been training new PVO AA regiments as quickly as we could produce 85mm AA guns. On the left side of the shore of Lake Ladoga, the Leningrad Front and 55th Army were stacked up with AA. And on the right side, so was the Volkhov front, deployed along the shoreline with abundant AA:







I don't know if this much AA is supposed to do anything to deter German interdiction, but if it is, it was not accomplishing that task.

Also, obviously both Germany and the Soviets are flying huge numbers of planes in the middle of winter, including during blizzard turns. I would rather not self-immolate my air force in the middle of winter over Lake Ladoga, but given that Germany is flying in the blizzard, I don't have much choice but to attempt to counter it.


Near Orel, I launch attacks on a large number of regiments now that it is 1943 and we have built up some CPP. Some can be attacked twice, and generally they will rout on the second attack if they are attacked twice in a row. The main purpose of these attacks is to add to the pressure and hopefully limit reinforcements to Leningrad.



I started attacking Stalingrad, and the German defense simply collapsed. What seemed to happen is if I attacked a unit once, it would retreat. Then if I attacked it again, it would surrender. Here for example the 389th division retreats:



Then I did a follow-up attack and they surrendered:



This might (?) have been happening so easily partly as a result of being on the 1.02.06 beta, I am not sure.

Seeing the initial success of these attacks, I decided to keep attacking as much as I possibly could this turn to try to get as many German units as possible to surrender, both to stop them from being able to retreat into city of Stalingrad (where the modified scenario adds a city fort) and also to free up some of my troops so that I could send more to Leningrad.

I got as far as Stalingrad itself this way, and Stalingrad was apparently garrisoned by only a single division. I tried a hasty attack with a mech corps, despite the fact that mech corps are basically the worst unit to attack a city. The attack failed, but it damaged or destroyed about half of the German rifle elements, and the other half was disrupted. This was a "low odds" attack... I was attacking with 2.8 CV against 69 CV...



So, I gathered up 3 rifle divisions and deliberate attacked Stalingrad - from across the river. The German unit was depleted, apparently because of how disrupted it had been both during the previous attack and this one, and so it surrendered, despite having double the final supposed CV of my attacking units. It's not every day that you win an attack with 2:1 CV in favor of the enemy. But urban combat is weird and very high intensity, which seems to lead to these sort of strange results sometimes.



I tried to similarly attack South Stalingrad, but after 5 hasty attacks it still held firm. Part of the reason for this, I think, is that South Stalingrad is a city hex rather than an urban hex. City combat is more normal, whereas urban combat exhibits this high intensity combat where everything can be depleted in one super high intensity attack, and then units will surrender to a follow up attack.



So it actually seems perversely easier to take Urban hexes than to take City hexes, despite urban hexes supposedly having higher defensive CV.

Anyway, I didn't have enough MP to move a unit into Stalingrad (another weird case of being able to take a city but not occupy it). However, the attack destroyed the German city fort.

Unless this sort of strange combat result is really intended for some reason, I would suggest that the devs maybe at some point take a look at combat in urban hexes specifically, and the effect that the high intensity of combat can have on potentially making defenders surrender too easily. Although maybe this was partly just a 1.02.06 beta thing.



Meanwhile, on the flanks, the Axis situation continued to slowly deteriorate:



And continued to deteriorate here as well:



Although Germany would keep routing a couple of cavalry and other weak units each turn, it didn't really seem to matter that much simply because I had more units, and so there was always a gap somewhere or other I could sneak through with one unit or the other.

[Beethoven1]

Turn 9, (Jan 14, 1943):

The saga continues. Here is one example air battle. Not all of them are this lopsided, of course (although some are in fact actually more lopsided), but this sort of air battle is not atypical, and is why the Soviet air count keeps dropping rapidly.



On land, I took a couple more hexes, but I keep getting failed attacks on that 4=15 security division (like 3 or 4 failed attacks in a row over the past few turns). I think what is so strong about that unit is not the unit itself, but its artillery support units that keep joining the battles. Maybe not that relevant now, since it was 1.02.06 beta, but check out this 305 mm super-heavy artillery:



The black units in Novgorod are SS divisions which have shown up here... Leningrad is like a burning sun, attracting huge numbers of all the best troops from both sides as though we were Icarus...

Soviet units in Leningrad continue to receive no supply, apart from the 600-700 or so which can be received from air supply, which is not nearly enough.


Something interesting is happening at Demyansk. Germany is pulling out. They started it a bit last turn while leaving some regiments, but now are entirely out of the Demyansk metropolitan statistical region.



Also note in the screenshot the additional Guards units, artillery divisions, etc that keep arriving. It is an endless stream of units being sucked into the Black Hole of Leningrad.

Pulling out of Demyansk frees up some German units, which obviously he needs both at Leningrad and Velikie Luki. However, it also frees up a lot of Soviet units. Leningrad is already fairly full of Soviet units, and additional units that go there should ideally mostly be Guards units (which will come soon from Stalingrad). So I opt to send a lot of my units freed up from Demyansk south to try to put additional pressure at Velikie Luki. If I can widen the salient here, I think, then that will end up stopping some German reinforcements from being able to go to Leningrad.

The Velikie Luki offensive continues. My guess is Germany did send up some of the VL area units towards Leningrad, because they are looking very thin in this sector now.



Minor action continues in the salient:



Stalingrad is cleared out except for one hex:



Notice I have a lot less units here now, already... Where did they all go? Well... that looks like an awful lot of Guards units and artillery divisions being transferred from the map to the reserve... I wonder where they could be headed? Hmmm...



There's continued jockeying on the flanks in the Caucasus, with Germany having pulled back somewhat from Stalingrad and having sent much needed reinforcements here. Note that my Guards Cavalry has pulled back towards the rail line. Next turn it will re-form from divisions back into corps, and transfer to reserve... And from the reserves, it will be redeployed... Where could they be going, can anyone guess?

[Beethoven1]

Turn 10, (Jan 21, 1943):

You know the drill. More interdiction, as the entirety of the VVS (as well as much of the Luftwaffe) is sucked into the all-consuming aerial vortex over Lake Ladoga. Throughout the whole game so far, I have not used planes anywhere other than Lake Ladoga. Germany is using planes elsewhere also though, at least some of the time. That is a luxury I cannot afford.

I did actually manage to get neutral interdiction in my air phase, but it was German in the German air phase, so again no supply gets through. On the land, I took 4 hexes, and Germany took one back.



Here's a look at a typical Soviet Guards Rifle Corps. I have been using essentially all of my AP on making Guards Rifle Corps and Rifle Corps in the Leningrad area, with a little bit also spent on getting good commanders in place. Every Guards Rifle Corps (as well as every Rifle Corps) pretty much has 3 Rifle Brigades attached, which gives them up to 47,000 men or so each at full TOE:





So essentially, I am attacking and attempting to relieve Leningrad with an enormous number of the most powerful units possible. The armies I am attacking with are also mostly all Shock Armies and/or Guards Armies decked out with Army Artillery regiments. In the case of the 2nd Shock Army, it is not even just Army Artillery regiments... it is nothing but GUARDS Army Artillery regiments. So we have a tremendous concentration of force here (almost to the point of absurdity), which is only going to increase as more reinforcements arrive from Stalingrad...



The Velikie Luki offensive continues, as the city itself is taken and the German position continues to become more perilous. More troops keep coming down from Demyansk to keep up the pressure. The garrison had been switched to only 3 Luftwaffe units, rather than a regular infantry division, so I seized on the opportunity and seized the city.




Kaluga Salient gonna Kaluga Salient. Germany has been doing some recon here and has quite a few Panzers and motorized, leading me to suspect they might want to try and surround units in the salient. They might suspect that my position has been weakened here to reinforce Leningrad (and Velikie Luki), so I don't want to weaken my position here too much. It is good to have this salient lengthening the German front line, but I need to be cautious with it and keep constantly guarding my flanks.



In Stalingrad, there are suddenly way less Soviet troops than before. Note the particular conspicuous absence of even a single Guards infantry unit...

My God, look at all the Guards units transferring into the reserves... If this does not turn out to be enough to break out Leningrad, I think we will be able to safely conclude that nothing would be.



There are some units down here, albeit no Guards Rifle divisions/corps. Germany surrounded a couple infantry divisions, so Tolbukhin had to come down here with his tanks to break them out:



Germany is trying to hold on to Maikop for another turn or two, but the northern flank is not exactly the most secure...

[Stamb]

If i recall correctly, IRL, Soviets had to gather supplies/ammo for several month in order to start an counter offensive. And in game They have more than enough supply in each sector to continuously attack every turn (week).
Somebody thrown an idea that supply system for Axis and Soviets can not be the same. I tend to agree with it.

Nice AAR Beethoven1!

[Beethoven1]

ORIGINAL: Stamb

If i recall correctly, IRL, Soviets had to gather supplies/ammo for several month in order to start an counter offensive. And in game They have more than enough supply in each sector to continuously attack every turn (week).
Somebody thrown an idea that supply system for Axis and Soviets can not be the same. I tend to agree with it.

Nice AAR Beethoven1!

Yeah, apparently Soviet supply does get worse later in the game, but supply is largely a function of how far away you are from the National Supply Source (NSS), so supply is fine now since we are relatively close to Moscow.

I do tend to agree though, and I think it ideally would be nice if Soviets had a bit worse overall supply in 1941/42, but instead did not have the special nerf to artillery ammo in particular. I recall reading a suggestion along those lines from Jubjub a while back.

In Leningrad, I am attacking every turn, but also keep in mind I am doing so with fairly low CPP most of the time, because the units do not have enough time to regain it, and moving even a single hex with the combination of heavy snow, rough terrain, and ZOC takes up basically all available movement points, so hardly any is available for CPP regain. When my attacks succeed, the reason most of them succeed is not CV, but superior numbers - the typical attack is with 200-300k men, with as many as 9 or so fully decked out Rifle Corps attacking a single hex. For better or worse, That is the only way to push given the terrain and weather etc.

[Beethoven1]

ORIGINAL: Jango32

How will hexes that have a connection to ports (or port hexes themselves) become isolated then? It would be incredibly frustrating for defenders in such areas to simply rout away instead of surrendering.

That is a good point. Players would not be happy if Soviet troops routed away over to the Volkhov river when attacked in Leningrad. I don't think either Germany players or Soviet players would be happy with that. Soviet players unhappy because then they can't defend Leningrad, and Germany players unhappy because then they could not destroy the Soviet units in Leningrad.