Four years later...

[RFalvo69]

This month it will be four years since MWIF (Matrix Workarounds in Flames) has been released. The monthly report gave us a summary of the situation. Here are some excerpts:

Bugs
My task list is completely up-to-date. Sadly, the list is still rather daunting to look at. I’ll be going over it yet again to identify things that deserve to be corrected prior to my assault on the NetPlay bugs. [Well, good to know...]

NetPlay
I’m still holding back to making any serious changes to the code to fix NetPlay-specific bugs. But I am assembling all the notes on bugs and saved games to accompany them.

Missing Optional Rules & Half Map Scenarios
Nothing new in October.

AI Opponent (AIO)
Nothing new in October.

FOUR YEARS

And I'll add the "mandatory" buying of the physical version with books ($150) until, all of sudden, it was not mandatory anymore.

Now, I already anticipate some of the objections: "We know", "There are workarounds", "Stop always repeating the same things"...

First: it is my belief that we should never forget both happy and painful events, both personal and world-changing. This is why we have anniversaries and remembrances - something that unites almost every human being.

Second: in the (very possibly implausible) event that M(Workarounds)in Flames will be finished within November 2018, this will still mean that Matrix sold as complete (*) a game five years before it was completed.

Edit: Oh, I almost forgot! We are in all fairness, not have been left alone. There is a prominent thread titled: IMPORTANT: State of the Game and Future Plans...!

...as of June, 2015. Then, curtain call.

Boy, how I would really like to celebrate this fourth anniversary by having my money back... (something any serious company would do - the emphasis, here, being put on "serious").

(*) I already mentioned this, but just check the tutorial videos: all the optional rules and half-map scenarios are shown as available - even if after four years we see how that was not the real state of the game - not to mention how we are still waiting for the missing ones.

Four years. Happy birthday!

[warspite1]

Well as you say yourself in the post, we’ve been here before. I don’t offer up this post to start an argument, or to suggest that what you’ve said is all wrong or that you don’t have reason to be unhappy with how things have turned out given the money you paid. But most of those things are for Matrix to comment on anyway.

No, the reason I post here is just to add an alternate view to yours. Some will agree with you, some with me and others will have their own angles on the situation. But for me:

FOUR YEARS

I’ve encountered degrees of frustration from time to time as bugs halted or suspended games. Like you I spent good money on the product. I knew there were issues, but like many – even those who knew of the problems - I didn’t expect the game to be in this position after four years.

But that said, if I knew then what I know now, I would still have paid the money and I would still have bought those sumptuous books. Why? Because those four years have enabled me to play the finest game ever made. No MWIF means, for me, no WIF.

I know that some people in the past have stated as fact that if Matrix were not involved then there would be lots of game companies just queuing up to take this game on and throw the necessary resources at it. I may be wrong, but I can’t see how the economics support this comment for a moment. So, no Matrix, no MWIF – which, as I say, translates for me, to no WIF.

What have I got for my money for the last four years?

Well I dabbled at solo to get myself back into the game. I did this via AAR which meant a lot of help and feedback was available to bridge the leap between WIFv.5 and MWIF. It felt so good to be playing again, although the games ended early because of bugs. I then played PBEM with Ormster, and now I have moved onto four-way play with AllenK, Mayhemizer and Orm. This latter is simply the best playing experience; getting to play the finest game ever made with three other like-minded individuals, to produce fun, intensely fought games, in a totally sporting, relaxed arena. The game is playable (and the proof of this are the four current AAR (see above)) - although not perfect as we all know - and we had one long suspension of the game while Steve worked on bug fixes and had to use work arounds on a couple of occasions. None of these have ruined the experience, although of course have been unwelcome.

FOUR YEARS

And so I conclude with this, and I do not say this to make the position with MWIF seem right, because it’s not, but I do say the following to provide some context.

In the time that MWIF has been out, I have played and properly ‘got into’ three other games (there are others that I never got/partially got into). Those games – CTGW, DC:B and SCWWII were fun, I did AAR for them too and enjoyed playing those games for a time. I consider them value for money. But they had their limitations in terms of enjoyment and replayability (and to a greater or lesser extent, bugs too) and have come and gone – probably never to be played again. But MWIF? MWIF is still being played four years later and will continue to be so.

So for me personally, Steve has my huge thanks for sticking with the project, despite great personal problems, and allowing me to get the opportunity to play the greatest game ever made once more. Four years? I’ll be playing this superb game of games for as long as I am physically able – and there are not any other games – with perhaps the exception of CIV - that I can say that about.

[michaelbaldur]

I agree, it is embarrassing.

[Centuur]

To be honest, where Matrix are concerned, I side with Mr. RFalvo69 on that one...

This game should never have been put on the market in the state it was 4 years ago and not even in the state it is in now. And after this mistake happened, Matrix should have tried to do something about the way things are going now (or at least take a decent stand on how they think on how to make sure this game gets up to standards - because it really isn't). That's pretty disappointing. They should have done something about it, but they didn't. Personally, that attitude made me not buy any other game from Matrix, since I don't trust this company. Perhaps I'll buy another buggy game from them...

But having concluded that, I also have to agree with Mr. Warspite. No MWIF would mean no WiF for me too. That means to "carry on". So I look at MWIF as a glass of beer which is half full, not half empty...

[zakblood]

i don't own the game, as epic as it's sounds, i got lost on WITE then went head on into WITW and loved it, next to useless at it, but loved it all the same, i'd guess this would be one of those sort of games for me also, love it, but just no good at it, so why comment without the game either?

well and here's the short reply, as the long reply may make me sound like an @rse,...

value for money, i spent 29k on a motohome and had it for 8 years, and about 14 weeks per year and more than a few short breaks in it per year, so doing the math = 112 weeks so i'd guess at 10 week ends per year so add in that = 12 or so more weeks, so 12 + 112 = 124 weeks, with my normal weekly hols running at £1200 per trip so x 124 = £148,800...

so an overall cost of 29k seems rather a bargain for the holidays had...

so what's this got to do with a none finished game?

add in the amount of hours spent in game, including reading and learning, add in time on and off the forums, debating and talking, chatting and learning, and moaning etc, don't forget that part, then divide the amount of total hours by the cost of the game, then you have a hourly rate, and work out if it was worth it in the end.

then work out with every game a company makes money on, the amount they don't make money on, add in forums and server costs, wages and everything else and times it by the amount of items sold, by how many years a given part gets supported, and tbh i don't think anyone can complain, in the long run, what ever first cost is a bargain, simple put,...

if these didn't do it, who else would?

i'm 50 this year and each year for the last 10 or 12 or maybe even more now, one less developer has stopped doing war games and either quit altogether or gone into different markets, where there's a better % chance of making money or a living or both, as lets face it, very few war game developer are even full time now, so you wish them to work for less than what you all earn per year?

some games take 4 to 6 years to get to market, with others taking less i know, but even 2 years of one mans wages won't get paid back by many war games sold now days....

so yes i also agree with warspite1
[&o]

[alexvand]

I totally understand the initial posters perspective, but mine is closer to Warspite's.

I am currently playing my 4th game through of WiF. Dollar for dollar I have gotten my money's worth. I have played so many hours that the cost is well below a dollar per hour. That's good value for my money.

Your Mileage May Vary.

[tom730_slith]

ORIGINAL: alexvand

I totally understand the initial posters perspective, but mine is closer to Warspite's.

I am currently playing my 4th game through of WiF. Dollar for dollar I have gotten my money's worth. I have played so many hours that the cost is well below a dollar per hour. That's good value for my money.

Your Mileage May Vary.

Agreed. If they had not released it I would have missed hundreds of hours of geeky WW2 fun! I may be in the minority, but not only am I glad I bought it but I bought a copy for a friend (on sale) so he can have fun and eventually well play together!

[juntoalmar]

I understand RFalvo69 and empathise with him. All of us have hoped to be in a better position four years later.

But my personal position is closer to warspite: in my case, MWiF has been the reason why I have known WiF and, most probably, I won’t ever own or play the board game; only MWiF.

Although the problems experienced with the project, MWiF has been the best wargame experience I have ever had in my life. Even if I’m not playing at the moment (not for any reason related to MWiF, but because I’m too busy in my professional life) this journey has been completely worthy for me. The fact that I’m still checking the forums, enjoying discussions about strategies and answering this post, proves it. I love this game. I loved it 4 years ago, and I still do.

Knowing what I know today, would I have bought MWiF again for the first time? Definitely. It is, by far, the best wargame investment I have made in terms of (hours of play * level of enjoyment) / price. That doesn’t mean that I can recommend blindly to any other player (the answer to this question may be different for them). But I’m always clear about my personal opinion and express with no regrets.

Last, but not least, I would like to thank again Steve for the great personal effort he is going through with the project and his commitment to MWiF.

[goulash]

101% with the OP on this. As someone whom never played the board game but had a interest in these types of games, I had thought that I was getting into something that would have been great. Today just feel completely ripped off.

I have no love of the game just because it was a board game I used to play thus I am not going to be a patient as the rest of some people quite clearly are.

It was a disgrace and all we have had is just excuse after excuse after excuse. Some companies on disaster games offered a token gesture to those whom paid out for a somewhat broken game they had released. Here it is just a bit of clever forum writing backed up by avid fans and some suggested workaround.

I mean patch timeframes = a complete joke. I am not interested in the unpaid job of testing builds.

Do better with someone creating this on tabletop simulator on steam rather than waiting for this project to finish.

[Sir Roland]

My Way is Fail

Another anniversary to remind us of a failed rollout.

Paid over $200 for this pile of code, maps, books and the hidden special.
That hidden perk. Paying to be a play tester.
That realization came much later. After full disclosure. It was not advertised as a special added deal-breaker.

When first purchaed my hopes were sky high. Learned how to use the interface in anticipation of netplay. Began an AAR that lasted til France fell. tm.asp?m=3500040

Worked on mods (KiF) with memebers of the forum. tm.asp?m=3628488
Posted problems real and imagined in tech support. Even managed to play a couple of unfinished games on Teamviewer.

Then that one recurring problem that kept me from really enjoying MWiF bit me hard in the a$$. The lack of player control over resource managment. It succeeded in replacing my enthusiasm with apathy.

Tried and tired of working with the AI ASSisted convoy system. Frustration over how its done in the boardgame vs the way its done in MWiF makes the game more trouble then its worth. All the computer power in the world can't replace MY ability to tell MY opponent how the Metz resource is going to the Metz Factory.

Getting build points to the correct powers. Sending oil and resources to specific factories. None of this is easily implemented game turn to game turn. Not with an AI ASSisted convoy system overiding your decisions turn to turn.

2.1.4.0 was the last time MWiF was publicly updated. Its the last update this/my game has recieved. Read we might get an update this month. Maybe my apathy will fade long enough to download and see how the AI ASSisted convoy system works at screwing things up. Expectations are low at best.

I've bored you all long enough with my apathetic post. I'll let the Dwarves of MWiF entertain now.

Good Luck gaming whatever you choose to play.

[Dabrion]

told you so..

[RFalvo69]

After reading the answers to my original post, I have some things thing to add.

I didn't call this game Matrix Workarounds in Flames to make a joke. I have no doubts that many people had many hours of fun with this - after finding their own workarounds.

I.e. by doing and still doing the work that Matrix didn't - even after paying full price for it.

Would you accept to pay full price for a plumbing job only to discover that, to have warm water, you actually will have to find your own workarounds? Yes? You would? Really? How I would like to be your plumber! But I wouldn't. I do own a restaurant/pizzeria. If you come to eat "chez me" be assured that I'll serve you the dishes you order: no need for "workarounds" like going to the kitchen and personally adding and cooking the missing ingredients...

...while I'm charging your credit cards for the full price.

IMHO, accepting this way of thinking means opening the door to a very dangerous possibility: what about a broken "War in the Pacific: Total Edition" which players will still enjoy because "they will find workarounds for the, let's say, broken auto-convoy system and incorrect use of oil"?

Why the tutorial videos showed (and still show) a complete game with all the optional rules available whereas four years later more than one third of the optional rules in the actual product are still greyed out (and the half-map scenarios, another given, are by now synonymous with "nothing new")? Why the same videos do mention Netplay as a given?

Some will pipe "This game made me learn WiF!" Good for you. The tutorials, however, are freely available on Youtube (a form of false advertising, BTW - see, for example, the internet gaming, the half-map scenarios and the optional rules shown as if they are all present and working with no mention that the game is incomplete ---> https://tinyurl.com/ydyw262f - which also means, ironically, that Matrix is false advertising the game within the game itself!)

And after you watched the tutorials for free on YT, the WiF VASSAL modules are among the best available, and the online WiF community is there to help you to learn the game. As amazing as it sound, people learned how to play WiF decades before MWiF came out. This because people actually learned to play wargames and boardgamesby simply readying the fucking manuals for almost a century now.

Between August ad now I learned to play The Gamer's OCS system even if there is not a game by Matrix on it.

And what have you learned anyway thanks to this wonderful MWiF? How to play another product, a cardboard one, for which you will have to shell hundreds of dollars more? (incidentally, I'll stress again how we are waiting for the completion of something that, by now, is obsolete - I Kickstarted the new Collector Edition edition and I'll get it within Christmas; something tells me that I'll not get missing counter-sheets or maps - needing for me to find "workarounds" for...)

Why there were no "Status of the game and future plans" after 2015?

Why there was not the decency by Matrix to refund at least the price of the books when they were no more mandatory - and the game was years away from completion anyway?

And, most importantly, what would bar Matrix to behave again like they did with MWiF?






If we accept what happened here (because, you know, there are workarounds, we will flatly lose any right to protest and call Matrix out every time any future game will be published while being months or years away from being completed. We will be forced to gladly accept, out of coherence, that a broken framework we paid full price for is enough for us to "have tons of hours of fun".

This is something that I, personally (but also, IMHO, any person living in a World where decency is a value) cannot accept.

I bought the game out of good faith. I had patience. And I'm eating the bullet I took - because, beside venting my frustration, there is nothing more I can do.

But, please, don't tell me that what happened here is not unacceptable because "No! It is not so! There are workarounds!" - because the next guy who buys a game by Matrix, or any other company will not deserve this.

[Dabrion]

There is a group of acolytes that seems to get some fun out of the game as it is. They may have their reasons.. you know .. like Amish People have also have reasons for denying years of progress in the word around them.

If you think Matrix/Slitherine scamed you, just boycot and slander their products. Don't buy from US/UK distributors anymore, at least be clear that they have no customer rights there. If you get scammed there burden of proof will generally fall upon the buying party, not the selling party.

MWiF is a train wreck.. with little salvage value.


p.s: Good choice on OCS! PM me if you are looking for a vassal game.

[warspite1]

But, please, don't tell me that what happened here is not unacceptable because "No! It is not so!

Can I ask you to confirm who said it was acceptable? As far as I can tell no one has said it’s acceptable. Yes, we’ve had the car analogies and now the plumbing analogies. We get the point and no one on this thread is actually disagreeing with you about that that I can see.

I suspect for most people on this forum MWIF is not the first computer game we’ve bought and it sure as hell is not the first game that has had issues – ranging from the irritating but got there eventually (by which time many had lost interest and given up) to unplayable, buggy crap that never got supported (or a token gesture of support that lasted about 5 minutes). It’s not right, but that is how areas of the industry has been for years. Maybe some people have boycotted such games and/or specific firms, but based on the comments I hear, I suspect most people suck it up because ‘it is what it is’ and they want to play these games.

My post was simply to give an alternate view on how MWIF – for all its faults – at least makes WIF accessible to those for whom it otherwise wouldn’t be. You’re angry with Matrix – okay fine, and we understand why having paid the money you did - but please don’t follow the ignorant avenue whereby that frustration makes you lash out at those people – people like you that have spent their hard earned money – who are just trying to make the best out of the situation in order to play the greatest game ever made. If you do you might end up making dumb, crass comments like this…..[8|]

Dabrion

There is a group of acolytes that seems to get some fun out of the game as it is. They may have their reasons.. you know .. like Amish People have also have reasons for denying years of progress in the word around them.

This is just a childish hissy fit railing against who? fellow consumers who have paid money too. “They may have their reasons” yes, as he knows full well, the reasons have been given by those above. We want to play WIF and can’t without MWIF. And for that we are trying to make the best of things. To childishly suggest we must be 'progress deniers' oh and 'acolytes' too [8|] is not justified and certainly not helpful.

[Zecke]

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar

So, some people have found other fellows who's personal experiences and conclusions are different than theirs (and can't convince them to change their minds)

Outrageous!

[>:]

junto a lacama; very interesting el LINK de cabeza de puente¡¡

EL WORDL OF FLORES este mu wapo¡

[juntoalmar]

So, some people have found other fellows who's personal experiences and conclusions are different than theirs (and can't convince them to change their minds)

Outrageous!

[>:]

[RFalvo69]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

But, please, don't tell me that what happened here is not unacceptable because "No! It is not so!

Can I ask you to confirm who said it was acceptable?

"This game gave me hundreds of hours of fun!!!!!111" etc. You can find these quotes everywhere.

This is just a childish hissy fit

I agree that it can only be an hissy fit - because this is what happens when you are scammed. But I disagree that it is childish - unless you think that expecting for any kind of product or service you paid for works as advertised is childish.

To childishly suggest we must be 'progress deniers' oh and 'acolytes' too [8|] is not justified and certainly not helpful.

Neither is "To make the best out of a scam" - because it only opens the doors to another scam. Childishly.

I have played tons of computer games, and some of them were very buggy, and some of these were never fixed. But I never saw someone asking $150 for a product five years from being completed and then leaving the buyers hanging.

By entering its fourth year of "Half map scenarios: nothing new", "Missing optional rules: nothing new" (*), MWiF symbolically topped Battlecruiser 3000AD as the farce of the videogaming world. And this is quite THE achievement that MWiF got.

(*) Did I mention that if someone looks on YT how this game is he will be presented MWiF as finished? Yes, I did. How childish from me to point out how the scam is still going on, isn't it?

[warspite1]

Well as I said, I wasn't looking for an argument, just a grown up exchange of views - but clearly you are so I'll say this and then leave you to spout whatever rubbish you want.

This game gave me hundreds of hours of fun

You quote this as though someone saying that is also saying that the position is acceptable and that the two must follow. Fine, if that is what you want to believe then go ahead. But just to try and make clear for the intergalactically hard of understanding: I've had hours of fun with the game but that does not make how it was sold right. There, does that make it clear or do you want to ignore or misrepresent that too????

This is just a childish hissy fit

So you think attacking ordinary paying consumers is okay? Like we made the decision to sell the game, like we have a hand in the profits? Get a grip. What has happened has happened and its not right. But we have three ways of going forward. Having spent the money we can try and do something positive (if we think the game is worth the aggro) - or we can walk away and put it down to experience - or we can whine, bitch and moan. I chose the former, some chose the middle option, while you chose the latter. Okay. Maybe that says something about our attitude to life.

Neither is "To make the best out of a scam" - because it only opens the doors to another scam.

So go get yourself a solicitor or whatever to get the 'scam artists' locked up.

But I never saw someone asking $150 for a product five years from being completed and then leaving the buyers hanging.

You haven't been around the computer games (or wargames market generally) for very long then have you? Or is the magic figure $150? What so anyone left with a useless unsupported game for which they paid $30 say, they don't count right? Only Matrix? Ever heard of HMS/GRD?? I think you need a dose of reality and you need to stop distorting the truth of what is going on and has been for years.

Anyway, I'm off to recoup some of the money I paid out by playing the best wargame ever made with some grown ups.

[RFalvo69]

ORIGINAL: warspite1


You quote this as though someone saying that is also saying that the position is acceptable and that the two must follow. Fine, if that is what you want to believe then go ahead. But just to try and make clear for the intergalactically hard of understanding: I've had hours of fun with the game but that does not make how it was sold right. There, does that make it clear or do you want to ignore or misrepresent that too????

Just try this little experiment: go to the WitP: AE forum, or the GG’s WitW one, and try to pipe: « Hey! In four years this game will be still broken, with no working. MP and no AI - but we will have a blast anyway!” Then, please, come back here and tell us how fast you were sent out of the door.

Okay. Maybe that says something about our attitude to life.

My attitude to life is to do the services I’m paid for and to expect the same in return. Your mileage may vary.

Neither is "To make the best out of a scam" - because it only opens the doors to another scam.

So go get yourself a solicitor or whatever to get the 'scam artists' locked up.

So to find you in the opposite lawyer seat?

Anyway, I'm off to recoup some of the money I paid out by playing the best wargame ever made with some grown ups.

Me too. The one, you know, with paper maps and counters, dice, and all the optional rules and half-map scenarios accounted for And since day one, I might add. Which means totally not this one.

Four years... Bah.

[warspite1]

Just try this little experiment: go to the WitP: AE forum, or the GG’s WitW one, and try to pipe: « Hey! In four years this game will be still broken, with no working. MP and no AI - but we will have a blast anyway!” Then, please, come back here and tell us how fast you were sent out of the door.

I've got absolutely no idea what that statement is trying to prove or even means. No idea at all.

quote:

quote:

Neither is "To make the best out of a scam" - because it only opens the doors to another scam.

So go get yourself a solicitor or whatever to get the 'scam artists' locked up.

So to find you in the opposite lawyer seat?

Do you not understand how bankrupt your argument is? Why would I be in the opposite chair? You would be claiming the game was not sold as advertised. Why would I - after everything I've said - be stating the opposite is true?? Why, I mean why, can't you understand what is being said. Why? Are you trolling or do you genuinely not understand? I am making the best of the situation. Its really not difficult.