Clear supply issue

[Nirosi]

Roads should not give "extra" supply...repaired rail sure...

As far as I know roads do not give extra supply. They only make that an hex is considered a clear hex for supply purposes (instead of mountain, desert, forest etc.). it is a way to make the hex at the same time clear (for supply) and also something else (for combat).

However, I think that any rail hex (even if no repaired) is also considered a road. If so, that might be worth reconsidering...

[Nirosi]

PS: I would be very curious to see two expert players try a normal game (with actual rules) from start but refrain from Barbarossa until 2nd or 3rd turn of June 41.

That might at least give us an idea of how balanced it is now for "history".

[stjeand]

The HQ rule starts as long as an HQ is on a hex supply level 1. And it is having it from Minsk. Yes the rule is crazily too good in USSR. But, in Egypt, impacting this maybe dangerous.

I can see it now...but the Forest spots should definitely be out of supply. They require 2 to supply but are only receiving 1 therefore should be 0.

So Forest should start out NOT at 0 but as -1. Then when you "add" 1 for and HQ it is not supplied. Instead, it is defaulting to 0 so it becomes a 1 which provides far too much supply overall. Same for all the other terrain.

[Nirosi]

The HQ rule starts as long as an HQ is on a hex supply level 1. And it is having it from Minsk. Yes the rule is crazily too good in USSR. But, in Egypt, impacting this maybe dangerous.

I can see it now...but the Forest spots should definitely be out of supply. They require 2 to supply but are only receiving 1 therefore should be 0.

So Forest should start out NOT at 0 but as -1. Then when you "add" 1 for and HQ it is not supplied. Instead, it is defaulting to 0 so it becomes a 1 which provides far too much supply overall. Same for all the other terrain.

Indeed, but I believe that this (never going under 0 for calculation) is on purpose, if not supply will be even harder than it is in Africa because of desert hexes been also "2". And also in Finland.

So it will help with the balance in the USSR, but might break it in Finland and more importantly in Africa. Adapting the rail repair speed as you suggested might be a wiser option as it will reduce supply only in the USSR where it seems to be the main problem.

[stjeand]

PS: I would be very curious to see two expert players try a normal game (with actual rules) from start but refrain from Barbarossa until 2nd or 3rd turn of June 41.

That might at least give us an idea of how balanced it is now for "history".

MM and I are planning this for the next game after I likely lose this one.

And a few other rules are likely to try to stick to the normality.

1. NO attacking Belgium in 39. That decimates France far to soon.
2. I think we may refrain for "silly" invasions...Finland invading Russia...UK invading France or Italy in 41...
3. No attacking in Clear April or October...I have played a game before where April, May and October had no rain...Good bye Russia. +6 clear turns...ABOVE the 2 May and 1 June turn...that could mean 9 extra turns for Germany in Russia in a year. Good god.

Would be tough to do the Greece and Yugoslavia thing...but possible. Have to examine it.

But 3 less turns in Russia would be huge...Russia would have more troops..and I think last longer. Then again Germany would have more troops too...but how many I don't know.

[stjeand]

Indeed, but I believe that this (never going under 0 for calculation) is on purpose, if not supply will be even harder than it is in Africa because of desert hexes been also "2". And also in Finland.

So it will help with the balance in the USSR, but might break it in Finland and more importantly in Africa. Adapting the rail repair speed as you suggested might be a wiser option as it will reduce supply only in the USSR where it seems to be the main problem.

Well supply should not be occurring in Africa except on the coast. All those hexes are plains. Have deep supply in the desert is just off.

DesertSupply.jpg (415.76 KiB) Viewed 478 times

There is no need for supply in the circled areas...

As for Finland...all the Battles are on the roads...and to be honest it should be a stalemate up there.
With the supply the Germans can easily with little effort take away all winter lend lease.
That is what? 1000 PP at least? If not more.

The Germans / Fins should not be advancing up there but with this they can and easily.

[Nirosi]

Indeed, but I believe that this (never going under 0 for calculation) is on purpose, if not supply will be even harder than it is in Africa because of desert hexes been also "2". And also in Finland.

So it will help with the balance in the USSR, but might break it in Finland and more importantly in Africa. Adapting the rail repair speed as you suggested might be a wiser option as it will reduce supply only in the USSR where it seems to be the main problem.

Well supply should not be occurring in Africa except on the coast. All those hexes are plains. Have deep supply in the desert is just off.

DesertSupply.jpg

There is no need for supply in the circled areas...

As for Finland...all the Battles are on the roads...and to be honest it should be a stalemate up there.
With the supply the Germans can easily with little effort take away all winter lend lease.
That is what? 1000 PP at least? If not more.

The Germans / Fins should not be advancing up there but with this they can and easily.

OK, not as bad as I thought in Egypt. Axis and Allies still need to be able to put a unit in the first row of desert, but I think it might be OK with the map here, except one or two hexes. But not the end of the world, I agree.

In French North Africa it should be Ok because of the rail line.

[stjeand]

Agreed...

And I checked Finland...they get enough supply to reach the Russian rail...but with the current set up they can have more in the area. Honestly just 1 hex in the rail is all that should be supplied...

Not sure of another location that would be overly affected.

[ncc1701e]

Agreed...

And I checked Finland...they get enough supply to reach the Russian rail...but with the current set up they can have more in the area. Honestly just 1 hex in the rail is all that should be supplied...

Not sure of another location that would be overly affected.

Well, when I invade Canada with the Axis, I always have supply problems near the Saint Laurent river.

So good finding everyone, the HQ rule needs to take into account terrain to know if +1 is possible or not.

As Nirosi pointed out, is it complicated to fix?

Do we change the rail repair rate to one per turn in any case?

[Nirosi]

I agree with Alvaro's approach of "changing one thing at a time and check"

My very personal preference would be to try with reducing the rail repair speed (most probably the easiest to do anyway).

Then check a few games.

If not enough, then add the HQ taking terrain into account (if programable).

[Nirosi]

Sorry NCC1701e. You might have to stop invading Canada if the supply changes! Everybody has to make some sacrifices...

[ncc1701e]

MM and I are planning this for the next game after I likely lose this one.

And a few other rules are likely to try to stick to the normality.

1. NO attacking Belgium in 39. That decimates France far to soon.
2. I think we may refrain for "silly" invasions...Finland invading Russia...UK invading France or Italy in 41...
3. No attacking in Clear April or October...I have played a game before where April, May and October had no rain...Good bye Russia. +6 clear turns...ABOVE the 2 May and 1 June turn...that could mean 9 extra turns for Germany in Russia in a year. Good god.

Would be tough to do the Greece and Yugoslavia thing...but possible. Have to examine it.

Perhaps you should wait for the incoming patch. Alvaro said it is already shipped.

1. Nothing I can think of to prevent it.
2. Such as an event prevents UK to build armor, we can think of a similar event to prevent UK to build landing ships. If HQ supply is fixed, it will be more difficult for Finland to invade USSR.
3. Rail repair rate is the thing to reduce to compensate.
4. Rail repair rate to 1 may also slow down Greece and Yugoslavia invasions. Maybe.

[ncc1701e]

I agree with Alvaro's approach of "changing one thing at a time and check"

My very personal preference would be to try with reducing the rail repair speed (most probably the easiest to do anyway).

Then check a few games.

If not enough, then add the HQ taking terrain into account (if programable).

Funny I would have said the contrary. Fixing the code, only Alvaro can do it.
Changing the rail repair rate is just an option in the editor I think; so far more easy to do if no more patch is supposed to come. After all, the game is five years old now.

[Nirosi]

Could very well be. My programing skills are somewhere between 0 and -1

[stjeand]

Rail repairs only 1 in Russia per turn because of Scorched Earth. That I know for sure. I think it is 2 in other countries Buit Scorched Earth setting drops repair to 1 in Russia as well as German rail when repaired by Allies.



As for supply...I would have thought each hex had a base value, 0, -1, -2, -4...and as supply spreads it would add the level to that...so moving from a supply level 8 to the next hex, would be a 7, then the terrain modifier take effect which it does normally...it just does not when an HQ is on the level 1 supply. It then extends supply 5 hexes in any direction no matter then terrain.
What I think is happening is there is a default of "1" if supply extends there no matter the terrain.

Though I am not sure how it is programmed.

[ncc1701e]

Few examples from a current game.

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supply 1.JPG (227.53 KiB) Viewed 399 times

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supply 2.JPG (159.54 KiB) Viewed 399 times

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supply 3.JPG (302.27 KiB) Viewed 399 times

[AlvaroSousa]

How did all of a sudden after months of no issues these supply problems come up? The North Africa one looks wrong to me.

[stjeand]

How did all of a sudden after months of no issues these supply problems come up? The North Africa one looks wrong to me.

They were always there but not overly noticeable...

It is rare for there to be major desert operations, but I have always seen oddities in Russia as the Axis. Rarely do I see the issue as the Allies since they have much shorter supply lines.