Redrum (Allies) v HamburgerMeat (Axis) v1.17
Redrum (Allies) v HamburgerMeat (Axis) v1.17
So I decided to do an AAR which will be mostly screenshots with just a little bit of commentary. If nothing else to give Taifun a break since he seems to post more AARs than everyone else combined these days! Generally it will be at least 1 year behind the current game and HamburgerMeat is welcome to post as well. This is a top 20 elo battle so should be exciting and show some interesting gameplay!
Last edited by redrum68 on Mon Sep 11, 2023 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Redrum (Allies) v HamburgerMeat (Axis) v1.17
Sept 15, 1939
And it begins... The Germans blitz Poland and they surrender in 1 turn. Generally this means the Germans will invade France early so defenses are prepared and BEF is sent to France. The Italians send ships out of the Med which will be used as scouts for the German navy and be very annoying (probably should have house ruled that out). Japan has a strong but pretty standard opening in China.
And it begins... The Germans blitz Poland and they surrender in 1 turn. Generally this means the Germans will invade France early so defenses are prepared and BEF is sent to France. The Italians send ships out of the Med which will be used as scouts for the German navy and be very annoying (probably should have house ruled that out). Japan has a strong but pretty standard opening in China.
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Last edited by redrum68 on Mon Sep 11, 2023 3:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Redrum (Allies) v HamburgerMeat (Axis) v1.17
Oct 13, 1939
Germany invades Luxembourg and they surrender. I expect Germany to invade Belgium probably next turn. The BEF arrives and the Allies try to form as much of a front line to defend France as possible. The general German meta seems to be Poland turn 1, invade Belgium/France turn 3/4 to work towards an early France surrender, skip North Africa and Greece, and then invade USSR as early as possible with max forces to cripple them in 1941 and force surrender in 1942/1943.
So Allied leadership decides that the UK will send some extra forces to try to slow down the early invasion of France as I'm not sure what else can slow this approach down. Whether its worth it or not, we'll see. The alternative I guess would be focus on tech with UK and try to invade somewhere in 1941 but its tough to pull off before the USA joins. Open to ideas on the best counter to early France invasion?
Germany invades Luxembourg and they surrender. I expect Germany to invade Belgium probably next turn. The BEF arrives and the Allies try to form as much of a front line to defend France as possible. The general German meta seems to be Poland turn 1, invade Belgium/France turn 3/4 to work towards an early France surrender, skip North Africa and Greece, and then invade USSR as early as possible with max forces to cripple them in 1941 and force surrender in 1942/1943.
So Allied leadership decides that the UK will send some extra forces to try to slow down the early invasion of France as I'm not sure what else can slow this approach down. Whether its worth it or not, we'll see. The alternative I guess would be focus on tech with UK and try to invade somewhere in 1941 but its tough to pull off before the USA joins. Open to ideas on the best counter to early France invasion?
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Last edited by redrum68 on Mon Sep 11, 2023 3:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Re: Redrum (Allies) v HamburgerMeat (Axis) v1.17
Nov 10, 1939
Pretty quiet turn as the Germans don't yet invade Belgium so just continue to fill in the French defenses. The Japanese are advancing quickly in China in both the north around Chengchow and in the south around Changsha. At this point, I realize my opponent is a pretty good tactical player and I should have adjusted my approach some.
Pretty quiet turn as the Germans don't yet invade Belgium so just continue to fill in the French defenses. The Japanese are advancing quickly in China in both the north around Chengchow and in the south around Changsha. At this point, I realize my opponent is a pretty good tactical player and I should have adjusted my approach some.
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Re: Redrum (Allies) v HamburgerMeat (Axis) v1.17
Dec 8, 1939
Germany invades Belgium and the Netherlands. Belgium surrenders but the Netherlands holds on. The Maginot Line is outflanked causing morale hit to the Allies. Its looking pretty grim to hold out very long against such an early invasion.
Germany invades Belgium and the Netherlands. Belgium surrenders but the Netherlands holds on. The Maginot Line is outflanked causing morale hit to the Allies. Its looking pretty grim to hold out very long against such an early invasion.
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Re: Redrum (Allies) v HamburgerMeat (Axis) v1.17
Jan 5, 1940
Netherlands holds on for another month as the Germans don't have a unit remaining to move into The Hague! The Japanese are advancing very rapidly and Chengchow, Changsha, and Hengyang will all fall soon but Nanning is safe for now. The Allies spot the German navy with 2 CAs and a sub around South Africa. They've been using the blockade zones to damage the South Africa convoy port. After the sub changes, this seems very difficult to counter as attacking subs no longer reduces their supply so they can more or less sit there even when being attacked by destroyers.
Netherlands holds on for another month as the Germans don't have a unit remaining to move into The Hague! The Japanese are advancing very rapidly and Chengchow, Changsha, and Hengyang will all fall soon but Nanning is safe for now. The Allies spot the German navy with 2 CAs and a sub around South Africa. They've been using the blockade zones to damage the South Africa convoy port. After the sub changes, this seems very difficult to counter as attacking subs no longer reduces their supply so they can more or less sit there even when being attacked by destroyers.
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Re: Redrum (Allies) v HamburgerMeat (Axis) v1.17
Feb 2, 1940
The Netherlands finally surrenders and the Germans begin their advance into northern France and capture Lille. The bulk of the German subs are found along the convoy lines off the coast of Portugal and we begin to try to surround them.
The Netherlands finally surrenders and the Germans begin their advance into northern France and capture Lille. The bulk of the German subs are found along the convoy lines off the coast of Portugal and we begin to try to surround them.
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Last edited by redrum68 on Mon Sep 11, 2023 4:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Redrum (Allies) v HamburgerMeat (Axis) v1.17
Mar 1, 1940
The Germans advance a few hexes in France but slower turn. The Japanese continue to advance rapidly and capture Chengchow and Changsha. This is when I begin to realize I have played too aggressively in defending China and the losses are becoming too high. I have too many units positioned south of Changsha that are now in lower supply rather than west of it.
The Germans advance a few hexes in France but slower turn. The Japanese continue to advance rapidly and capture Chengchow and Changsha. This is when I begin to realize I have played too aggressively in defending China and the losses are becoming too high. I have too many units positioned south of Changsha that are now in lower supply rather than west of it.
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Re: Redrum (Allies) v HamburgerMeat (Axis) v1.17
Mar 29, 1940
The Germans continue their slow and steady advance in France. A German Army that was overextended NE of Paris was destroyed, the first German casualty of the war! The naval skirmishes off the coast of Portugal continue as more UK destroyers arrive to deal with the 3 subs.
The Germans continue their slow and steady advance in France. A German Army that was overextended NE of Paris was destroyed, the first German casualty of the war! The naval skirmishes off the coast of Portugal continue as more UK destroyers arrive to deal with the 3 subs.
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Re: Redrum (Allies) v HamburgerMeat (Axis) v1.17
Apr 26, 1940
Italy joins the war (early as usual these days since Germans are within a few hexes of Paris) and most of the remaining French units abandon the Maginot Line to form some sort of defensive line in the south. I already can see 3 Italian Armies, 3 Corps, and 1 Tank which is most of their good units and means they probably aren't going to seriously contest North or East Africa. At this point, things are beginning to crumble in France and its mostly just figuring out how many turns I can hold out without losing too many UK units. Norway surrenders via the German DE.
Allied destroyers finally do some damage to the German subs though sadly the best way to damage them is run into them and hope they decide to engage back so you can use the destroyers 5 sub defense instead of the 1 sub attack. Overall, not really sure I like all the sub changes over the past few patches.
Japan begins advancing from Wuhan creating essentially a 3rd area the Chinese have to try to defend. The Japanese approach Sian causing an increase in USA and Communist China mobilization. Apparently my opponent wasn't aware of this change though I'm guessing he still would have triggered it soon in the south anyways.
UK accepts the DE to have Malaysia join the war to get the 3 corps. USA hits 40% mobilization so starts sending convoys to the UK.
Italy joins the war (early as usual these days since Germans are within a few hexes of Paris) and most of the remaining French units abandon the Maginot Line to form some sort of defensive line in the south. I already can see 3 Italian Armies, 3 Corps, and 1 Tank which is most of their good units and means they probably aren't going to seriously contest North or East Africa. At this point, things are beginning to crumble in France and its mostly just figuring out how many turns I can hold out without losing too many UK units. Norway surrenders via the German DE.
Allied destroyers finally do some damage to the German subs though sadly the best way to damage them is run into them and hope they decide to engage back so you can use the destroyers 5 sub defense instead of the 1 sub attack. Overall, not really sure I like all the sub changes over the past few patches.
Japan begins advancing from Wuhan creating essentially a 3rd area the Chinese have to try to defend. The Japanese approach Sian causing an increase in USA and Communist China mobilization. Apparently my opponent wasn't aware of this change though I'm guessing he still would have triggered it soon in the south anyways.
UK accepts the DE to have Malaysia join the war to get the 3 corps. USA hits 40% mobilization so starts sending convoys to the UK.
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Re: Redrum (Allies) v HamburgerMeat (Axis) v1.17
May 24, 1940
We are running out of units in France as the Germans quickly approach Paris. The French heavy tanks arrive but too late to be useful as usual with the early France invasion. We begin moving the UK air and HQ units to ports to prepare to evacuate once Paris falls. The French NM is at 11.8k.
With Italy joining last turn, naval action starts up in the Med with Italy raiding the convoy lines with what appears to be their entire navy. The combined Allied fleet destroys an Italian battleship and damages a number of other vessels while cutting off their escape back to Italy. Next turn we should be able to eliminate most of what remains and then control the Med even after France surrenders. This was probably a mistake by my opponent to play that aggressively with the Italian navy before France surrenders and I'm guessing he didn't expect as many Allied ships to be there.
We are running out of units in France as the Germans quickly approach Paris. The French heavy tanks arrive but too late to be useful as usual with the early France invasion. We begin moving the UK air and HQ units to ports to prepare to evacuate once Paris falls. The French NM is at 11.8k.
With Italy joining last turn, naval action starts up in the Med with Italy raiding the convoy lines with what appears to be their entire navy. The combined Allied fleet destroys an Italian battleship and damages a number of other vessels while cutting off their escape back to Italy. Next turn we should be able to eliminate most of what remains and then control the Med even after France surrenders. This was probably a mistake by my opponent to play that aggressively with the Italian navy before France surrenders and I'm guessing he didn't expect as many Allied ships to be there.
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Re: Redrum (Allies) v HamburgerMeat (Axis) v1.17
Jun 21, 1940
Well, France has at least survived past its historical surrender date. We still hold Paris but it will probably fall next turn and France will surrender soon after with French NM at 11.2k. In the Med, an Italian destroyer, light cruiser, and heavy cruiser are sunk but a battleship escapes with just 1 HP left. The remaining Italian vessels should be able to be hunted down in their ports with carriers over the next few turns.
Japan pushes hard west towards Chungking rather than south towards Nanning. This caught be a bit by surprise as I think often players avoid the USA mobilization for a bit but since that has already happened it doesn't matter. My position in China is not looking good and my opponent has played very well tactically utilizing HQs assignments, unit swapping, and bombers to the max.
Well, France has at least survived past its historical surrender date. We still hold Paris but it will probably fall next turn and France will surrender soon after with French NM at 11.2k. In the Med, an Italian destroyer, light cruiser, and heavy cruiser are sunk but a battleship escapes with just 1 HP left. The remaining Italian vessels should be able to be hunted down in their ports with carriers over the next few turns.
Japan pushes hard west towards Chungking rather than south towards Nanning. This caught be a bit by surprise as I think often players avoid the USA mobilization for a bit but since that has already happened it doesn't matter. My position in China is not looking good and my opponent has played very well tactically utilizing HQs assignments, unit swapping, and bombers to the max.
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Re: Redrum (Allies) v HamburgerMeat (Axis) v1.17
July 19, 1940
Paris and Lyon fall but France doesn't yet surrender. The remaining UK units cluster in NW France and try to reach ports. French NM is at 3.4k. A German sub and an Italian battleship are destroyed.
Paris and Lyon fall but France doesn't yet surrender. The remaining UK units cluster in NW France and try to reach ports. French NM is at 3.4k. A German sub and an Italian battleship are destroyed.
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Re: Redrum (Allies) v HamburgerMeat (Axis) v1.17
Aug 16, 1940
In France, the Germans dive at the retreating British and destroy quite a number of units including the tactical bombers and severely damage the strategic bombers. Most of the remaining units are evacuated. But the aggressive action was expensive for the Germans as a paratrooper is destroyed and another one drops to half HP. I was a bit surprised how far they were able to drive and even though they took some significant losses, it was probably worth it given the damage they did to the British. The French still hold on with 2.8k NM but I'm pretty sure they will surrender next turn. The Allied navies continue to do well and destroy a German heavy cruiser and an Italian sub.
In France, the Germans dive at the retreating British and destroy quite a number of units including the tactical bombers and severely damage the strategic bombers. Most of the remaining units are evacuated. But the aggressive action was expensive for the Germans as a paratrooper is destroyed and another one drops to half HP. I was a bit surprised how far they were able to drive and even though they took some significant losses, it was probably worth it given the damage they did to the British. The French still hold on with 2.8k NM but I'm pretty sure they will surrender next turn. The Allied navies continue to do well and destroy a German heavy cruiser and an Italian sub.
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Re: Redrum (Allies) v HamburgerMeat (Axis) v1.17
Sept 13, 1940
France surrenders and Germany receives ~850 MPP in plunder. The Axis appear to have completely abandoned Africa and left just a few garrisons. The Allies advance quickly in both North and East Africa and Abyssinia is liberated. Its clear that the Axis plan is to mass everything for Barbarossa. The British destroy another German sub.
France surrenders and Germany receives ~850 MPP in plunder. The Axis appear to have completely abandoned Africa and left just a few garrisons. The Allies advance quickly in both North and East Africa and Abyssinia is liberated. Its clear that the Axis plan is to mass everything for Barbarossa. The British destroy another German sub.
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Re: Redrum (Allies) v HamburgerMeat (Axis) v1.17
Fall of France - Game Summary
Now that France has surrendered, its a good time to review the current state of the game.
UK vs Germany/Italy
- Naval - So far the UK has done very well on the seas as they've lost only 2 cruisers while destroying most of the Regina Marina and 2 German subs and a heavy cruiser.
- UK Convoys - Convoy losses are also pretty minimal and really the South Africa port being damaged is the only significant missed income.
- France - The battle of France went ok as the Allies did delay the French surrender til Sept and caused some losses to the Axis but also lost quite a lot themselves. The second to last turn was probably the only major mistake as the UK took almost 1300 MPP in losses. The UK has also invested very little in research so far.
- North and East Africa - Axis has only garrisons so Allies will control all of Africa soon but Axis avoid having to spend anything on losses.
- MPP Losses - Total MPP losses are UK with 5599 vs Germany with 5124 and Italy with 2634 (total of 7758). I think this is pretty good overall but a good chunk of that is Axis naval losses which they probably won't bother replacing so don't impact Barbarossa.
China vs Japan
- Japan has advanced pretty quickly and caused massive losses to China. China defended too aggressively and with too many units in the far south.
- Japan did advance far enough to trigger US mobilization so they will have more income and join earlier.
- China still holds Nanning and a good income but Japan is already approaching Chungking.
- MPP Losses - China with 5743 vs Japan with 3564.
Now that France has surrendered, its a good time to review the current state of the game.
UK vs Germany/Italy
- Naval - So far the UK has done very well on the seas as they've lost only 2 cruisers while destroying most of the Regina Marina and 2 German subs and a heavy cruiser.
- UK Convoys - Convoy losses are also pretty minimal and really the South Africa port being damaged is the only significant missed income.
- France - The battle of France went ok as the Allies did delay the French surrender til Sept and caused some losses to the Axis but also lost quite a lot themselves. The second to last turn was probably the only major mistake as the UK took almost 1300 MPP in losses. The UK has also invested very little in research so far.
- North and East Africa - Axis has only garrisons so Allies will control all of Africa soon but Axis avoid having to spend anything on losses.
- MPP Losses - Total MPP losses are UK with 5599 vs Germany with 5124 and Italy with 2634 (total of 7758). I think this is pretty good overall but a good chunk of that is Axis naval losses which they probably won't bother replacing so don't impact Barbarossa.
China vs Japan
- Japan has advanced pretty quickly and caused massive losses to China. China defended too aggressively and with too many units in the far south.
- Japan did advance far enough to trigger US mobilization so they will have more income and join earlier.
- China still holds Nanning and a good income but Japan is already approaching Chungking.
- MPP Losses - China with 5743 vs Japan with 3564.
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Last edited by redrum68 on Wed Sep 13, 2023 4:20 am, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Redrum (Allies) v HamburgerMeat (Axis) v1.17
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HamburgerMeat
- Posts: 381
- Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:11 pm
Re: Redrum (Allies) v HamburgerMeat (Axis) v1.17
The game has concluded and I wanted to post some thoughts while they're still fresh, so if any readers want to avoid spoilers then skip ahead of this post
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My naval game was basically nonexistent, but my even bigger mistake was poor investments with the italians. i went for advanced aircraft and C&C but no anti air, which is a bad idea versus an aggressive UK player (which IMO is the right way to play as the UK).
Theyve definitely made it alot harder to overwhelm the USSR. between the additional units, the more frequent bad weather, and increased difficulties getting to 110% national morale, the USSR finally feels like the juggernaut it is supposed to be. Winter is so debiliating that its probably best to operate german troops out until after the storm passes. While cutting off units to <4 supply made more sense before, the sheer quantity of USSR corps/armies makes this less important than before. In earlier versions, i remember how unforgiving it was to play as the USSR, but now the quantity is there so that one could make some mistakes with unit placement without costing the war. probably still a mistake to invest in a forward defense versus barbarossa though
I like the changes to bombers, with being able to strike even with precipitation yet removing the detrench and reducing attack values. Anti air flak may be a bit too cost effective (losing 4 strength off a medium bomber is extremely expensive). at the same time, experience on german bombers seems overtuned, as i was able to send out bombers without escorts against soviet aircraft. Intercepting these experienced bombers usually resulted in soviet fighers being damaged and bombers being unscathed.
in any case, I dont think abandoning the middle east is a good strategy anymore, as taking Cairo substantially boost german national morale, most likely past 110%. with that threshold crossed, force marched german units will quickly recover and be able to go on the offensive. In addition, the "dagger to the heart" strategy of focusing on army group center all the way to perm is substantially more risky. as such, it's probably a better idea to focus on depriving USSR of MPPs
Rather than a knockout blow to the USSR and ignoring the middle east, the "easiest" axis victory now might be a coordinated long-range amphib sneak attack on the USA, taking DC and the alternate capital with german and japanese troops, operating all aircraft in.
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My naval game was basically nonexistent, but my even bigger mistake was poor investments with the italians. i went for advanced aircraft and C&C but no anti air, which is a bad idea versus an aggressive UK player (which IMO is the right way to play as the UK).
Theyve definitely made it alot harder to overwhelm the USSR. between the additional units, the more frequent bad weather, and increased difficulties getting to 110% national morale, the USSR finally feels like the juggernaut it is supposed to be. Winter is so debiliating that its probably best to operate german troops out until after the storm passes. While cutting off units to <4 supply made more sense before, the sheer quantity of USSR corps/armies makes this less important than before. In earlier versions, i remember how unforgiving it was to play as the USSR, but now the quantity is there so that one could make some mistakes with unit placement without costing the war. probably still a mistake to invest in a forward defense versus barbarossa though
I like the changes to bombers, with being able to strike even with precipitation yet removing the detrench and reducing attack values. Anti air flak may be a bit too cost effective (losing 4 strength off a medium bomber is extremely expensive). at the same time, experience on german bombers seems overtuned, as i was able to send out bombers without escorts against soviet aircraft. Intercepting these experienced bombers usually resulted in soviet fighers being damaged and bombers being unscathed.
in any case, I dont think abandoning the middle east is a good strategy anymore, as taking Cairo substantially boost german national morale, most likely past 110%. with that threshold crossed, force marched german units will quickly recover and be able to go on the offensive. In addition, the "dagger to the heart" strategy of focusing on army group center all the way to perm is substantially more risky. as such, it's probably a better idea to focus on depriving USSR of MPPs
Rather than a knockout blow to the USSR and ignoring the middle east, the "easiest" axis victory now might be a coordinated long-range amphib sneak attack on the USA, taking DC and the alternate capital with german and japanese troops, operating all aircraft in.
Re: Redrum (Allies) v HamburgerMeat (Axis) v1.17
Thanks for the thoughts HM. Once I post the rest of the turns, I'll add some thoughts on the game as well.
Oct 11, 1940
Japan shifts all their units to pushing towards Chungking and are already getting close.
Oct 11, 1940
Japan shifts all their units to pushing towards Chungking and are already getting close.
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Re: Redrum (Allies) v HamburgerMeat (Axis) v1.17
Nov 8, 1940
Romania and Hungary join the Axis. Italian East Africa surrenders to the Allies. The Afrika Korps arrive and I expect they will be sent to the Eastern Front. The UK focuses on some research and rebuilding units.
Romania and Hungary join the Axis. Italian East Africa surrenders to the Allies. The Afrika Korps arrive and I expect they will be sent to the Eastern Front. The UK focuses on some research and rebuilding units.