Paper Tigers?

[Dora09]

Got Gateway to Caen first day and have been playing the campaign as the Brits on first playthrough. I noticed that the Tigers seem very easy to kill. The Panthers are tough but even my 6-pounders and M4s with the lower velocity (not firefly) guns kill Tigers with ease even at long range. I know Panthers have sloped armor and all that but I would have expected the Tiger to be a little tougher. I am killing them at range with M4A1s (Sherman II) which were the same tanks that got eaten alive by Tigers in North Africa... so it seems odd.

Anyone else notice this? I have played just about every CC since CCIII and these seem to be the most fragile Tigers in the series.

[vobbnobb]

The 6 pounder can take on sides of Tiger Is easy. Sloped panther armor was only good for low velocity guns and if it was made too thin the slope won't help much. The sherman probably had a side or rear shot on the tiger most likely, but could have been using HVAP or another special British ammo, not sure if British had this ammo in ww2 or what they had, an expert would know.

[Dora09]

If it were side or rear shots I wouldn't be concerned but they were frontal shots and from long range. I did notice that the 6 pounder has like 6 rounds of special ammo (Tungsten?) but the M4A1s don't have special ammo. Tigers just seem sort of weak in this game.

[Cathartes]

A Sherman Firefly usually accompanies each troop of Sherman, could it have been a Firefly with the 17 lb gun?

[vobbnobb]

veteran or elite sherman crews in other cc games at least from my experience can exploit frontal armor aim for mg ports, aim for turret housing etc to knock a heavy tank out. Are you sure it wasn't an elite tank crew labled on the icon bright green? The Panzergrenadiers job was to scout ahead for enemy AT emplacements before the heavy tanks roll in. The Tigers and PZIvs just can't operate in a heavy bocage area or inner city area without troop support. In the open country is where they excel. Use a scout car to check the hedge line for tanks or AT guns or use troops. Never move a tank up without checking the area first if you are traveling to capture flags north check the building and hedges on the flanks on either side
(east and west). If you find a AT gun fall back and call in mortars or troops on it. If you find a piat team in a building they shouldn't be hard to take care of. A good piat team will try to use the 2nd story buildings for better shots.

[CGGrognard]

The Tigers are easy to take out from the side or rear, even with a Sherman. But most tanks aren't an even match for the Tiger, which is why it's important to isolate them and target them from different angles. Panthers can be as formidable as well, but as with the Tiger, can be taken out easily given the angle of shot.

[Dora09]

Thanks guys. I guess I am the only one seeing this. I am playing as the Allies so it is not that I am complaining that my Tigers are too weak. It makes it easy on me now that they are easy to kill but it just seems a little too easy. The Panthers are super tough, I have to be very careful with them but I have been eating the tigers alive with M4A1s (again, not Firefly), I don't even sweat when I see a Tiger in this game.. that doesn't seem right.

[Panjack]

My experience also has been Tigers are easy to kill but Panthers are very tough.

[Dowly]

Haven't experienced paper tigers in the German campaign. I held Cheux with one Tiger, it had 9 tank kills before I merged the BG with the Panther BG and lost that Tiger.. somewhere.

[STIENER]

the 6 pdr had the APDS round that could take out tigers and panthers. same as the Firefly and the 17 pdr a/t gun. the APDS round did not show up for the allies till a few weeks after the allies landed im told. im not sure of the date? cathartes?

the sherman with the 75 mm gun did not have the ability to take the tiger and the panther out from the front, unless they got a real lucky shot.

im guessing that we have an issue with the gun, penetration and armour data here and it needs to be looked into. shermans should not be able to take tigers out or panthers. the tiger was the most feared german tank of the war for a reason. theres an issue here IMO.

[Dora09]

In the game 6 pounder AT guns have ~6 rounds of APDS to start. There does seem to be something wrong with the Tigers at least when playing as the Allies. I have not played as Germans yet so when I do I will pay close attention to the them. I will put it this way, as the Allies I always get a green circle on the Tiger with basic Shermans but with those same Shermans I get a black circle on Panthers.

[Cathartes]

The Sherman's 75mm M3 gun can't defeat the front armor of a Tiger/Pz VIE. I double-checked the data and did a quick test in-game for those that are wondering.

Dora09, did you mod your data files at all? I Perhaps you were hitting the side of the tank when it looked like you were hitting the front?

Also, the 6 pdr AT gun has 4 rounds of sabot (was available and was used at time of Operation Epsom).

[Dora09]

Thanks Cathates!

It is nice to see visual evidence.

I have not modified my files at all. Maybe I was somehow getting side shots on them. However, I just never see the black circle on Tiger, yet I see them all the time when engaging Panthers.

Regardless, at least in the campaign I am playing now, the Tigers seem much easier to kill than Panthers.

[vobbnobb]

Yeah the Panther Gs are a nightmare for me also.

The black circle doesn't mean you can't kill the tank, it's just an extremely low probability like 9% but it's still could happen.

[bummer]

My experience in using Tiger I tanks is to keep them at a distance from enemy tanks and use their superior gunnery and range. It is good to have them in hull-down position, such as in a ditch or behind a hedgerow, or hiding near a building where only the frontal armor is exposed. A lucky shot from a Sherman can disable a Tiger's track when out in the open; however, three Tigers together in a field will kill everything in sight. Beware Jabos and heavy artillery, though!