Australian I Corps

[el cid again]

Stock land unit slot 170 is a critically important Allied command.
Stationed in North Africa before the Pacific War began, it was
ordered to Australia on 3 January 1942, along with two AIF divisions
then in Egypt. "By the end of January the divisions had embarked"
and, presumably, so did the HQ.

Stock has this unit starting already in Australia in December, 1941.
It also does not have the commander who led it in the Pacific. Neither
does it have the commander who took it to Egypt. The correct commander
is in the database, however. Leader number 16885 is Lt Gen John D
Lavarack. The date he is available may or may not be perfect, but it
will work if the HQ is set to appear at Aden in the right time frame,
which is sometime in February, 1942.

Given the tiny number of political points for the Allies in stock,
why is this unit assigned to a restricted command? There are so many
instances like this it is utterly impossible for the Allies to use
historical units in historical areas. This unit should be assigned to UK
SE Asia or to some other unrestricted command.

[JeffroK]

I Aust Corps started moving from Lebanon in late Jan 1942 and some Corps units such as 2/2 Pioneer Bn were on Java by 10/2/42 with advance groups flying into Batavia 26 Jan 42.

The Aussie OOB & locations need a LOT of work.

[Ian R]

Bump.

ORIGINAL: JeffK

The Aussie OOB & locations need a LOT of work.

They look like they've been taken from the "digger-history" website, or similar, to a large extent.

The OOB given there and currently headed "MAKE UP OF THE AUSTRALIAN ARMY, SEPT 1939" appears to have been copied verbatim from Gavin Long's volume VII of the official history, page 16, which gives the OOB in late April 1943.

Edit, its actually from page 16 of Dexter's voulme VI.

According to Messrs Long & Dexter, I Corps HQ was pillaged in Feb '42 to establish Lavarack's 1st Army HQ in Queensland.

Later, Morshead set up II corps HQ up in the tropics to control the units training at Canungra. In the mean time, NG Force HQ had grown to the size of what David Horner calls "an army level headquarters"* . I corps was re-established in September 43 to control 7th and 9th division on deployment to PNG, under Herring's command, subordinate to NGF HQ.

[* see page 50 of 118:

2003 papers ]

Given the tiny number of political points for the Allies in stock,
why is this unit assigned to a restricted command?

Probably because it was retained in Australia on return and used to form 1st Army HQ.

Can you buy out 1st Army HQ later or is it perma-restricted? I can't remember.

[Ian R]

So Sid, are you still working on this, or am I wasting my time trying to assist you?

[JeffroK]

Gday Ian,

The link you have "2003 Papers" goes to one of the many interesting papers presented at the annual Military History Conference.
http://www.army.gov.au/Our-history/Army ... Conference

Some of the glaring error in the Aust Army set up is trying to set up troops in groupings for the AI to process, AndyMac did this deliberately. The RAN setup/arrival is more severley borked.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

So Sid, are you still working on this, or am I wasting my time trying to assist you?

Actually - I always update OB data when it becomes known to me. However, I expect items to
appear on "the" RHS thread - so I don't look at single topic threads much.

At this time there are three different "RHS" threads - one (supposedly dead but still in fact
primary) for Level I (stock map form)

one (supposedly active but not yet able to release a version) for Level II (extended map form)

and one devoted to map development (run by a map artist, not by me).

What is happening is that I am ready to release Level II - it will post in a few days -
and the new maps are not ready yet. SO I am making an interim map by modifying stock and
Andrew Brown map panels. More work is that I need to create an entirely new pwhexe.dat set
to work with these new maps. It is progressing well - and many map issues will be corrected
on the "interim" maps - which hopefully will be replaced by entirely new ones professionally
crafted (in 6-12 months).

Please post suggestions on the Level II thread - this is the one that will get changes to the
location files.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Gday Ian,

The link you have "2003 Papers" goes to one of the many interesting papers presented at the annual Military History Conference.
http://www.army.gov.au/Our-history/Army ... Conference

Some of the glaring error in the Aust Army set up is trying to set up troops in groupings for the AI to process, AndyMac did this deliberately. The RAN setup/arrival is more severley borked.

Thank you for this.

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: el cid again




Actually - I always update OB data when it becomes known to me. However, I expect items to
appear on "the" RHS thread - so I don't look at single topic threads much.

A post-2014 protocol?

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: el cid again




Actually - I always update OB data when it becomes known to me. However, I expect items to
appear on "the" RHS thread - so I don't look at single topic threads much.

A post-2014 protocol?

Sid has his own rules [8D]

[Ian R]

Well, if he doesn't check this thread anymore he's going to miss that I looked up the war diaries on the AWM site, and confirmed:

1st Army HQ stood up 9 April 42, I corps ceased to exist because it became 1st Army

2nd Army HQ stood up 15 April 42 at 1800 hours per AHQ Operation Instruction number 50, re-designating 'HQ HF'

1 Corps HQ dormant until 26 August 43, HQ 1st Corps stood up again at Dobodura at 0800 27 August 43

2 Corps HQ operational by 1 May 1942 (this is the first diary entry available, infer it formed on 15 April). On 10 October 43 it moved the Dobodura, 1st Corps moved back to Atherton training area.

3 Corps stood up 15 April 42 at 1800 hrs. with skeleton staff, filled out over next 2 months.

[el cid again]

What I don't do is check all threads. I get 4000 emails a day and spend 10-12 hours
working on data. I check the main RHS threads. You can do that too.

If you had done that, you would find I had detected major Aussie OB issues more than
a year ago. I decided a total rework was required. One example is the total lack
of the Aussie Armored "division." Originally called a division, it was reclassified
as a brigade mid war. But it lost ZERO tanks! It was somewhat of a glorified brigade
to begin with - only 30 medium tanks. Yet it is a fabulous unit - with light tanks,
medium tanks, very light weapons carriers, infantry, artillery, engineers, name it - a
fine unit - which technically pre dates the Pacific War. Other units were missing
as well.

Never mind - I looked at the subject again today. While I generally liked what I did before,
as usual I found ways to better model the units. So there will be slight changes in the
next update.

[m10bob]

Very nice thread..I read it while playing a solo custom game and paid the points to change the HQ unit in Sydney to "Southeast Asia Command.
Since then, all the "Australian I Corps" units are coming to Aden and transportable, still assigned to that Corps in an on going game..
Till I read this thread, I did not know the Aussie unit assignments and locations were borked.

[US87891]

I must be slacking because I only get 4 or less emails.

Having pretty little OOBs is a nice thing. However, folding the pretty little OOBs into the game system takes more than just listing times and dates and name changes into the OOB data files.

If you can make your OOB list functional, I would love to hear how to go about it. We have been fighting that bear in Babes for several years, now. Your input would be invaluable. If you have anything, PM me please.

Still watching, Mr Trevethen.

Matt

[Andy Mac]

I Corps is wrong I knew than when it was done but at the time HQ slots 1 - 275 caused major AI issues if we messed about with them so have a single Corps HQ arriving 2 months early was a small price to pay.

As Jeff pointed out the rest of the Aus OOB when you get down to micro level has a number of units starting in the wrong bases.

As Matt points out sometimes you need to compromise to get a workable compromise within the gaming system.

The OOB for Australia was not perfect units tend to be in the right part of the country but sometimes start int h wrong base and the sub units I chose to represent are not always the ones others would have chosen but no one has came back and said the combat capablity of the Australian Army is fundamentally wrong and at a theatre level the distribution of force between East/West/North and South Australia is broadly correct on 7/12/41 but I accept individual unts may not always be in the correct starting base within those regions sometimes that was for AI reason (South Australia) and sometimes because I had conflicting sources and had to do the best I could

In my defence I was not the Australian Army expert and had to do what I could when our Aussie Army expert had to pull out from the project. - I was brought into AE to do the BRITISH INDIAN ARMY everything else that I got involved in was because others pulled out by the end I was doing a fair bit !!!!

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I Corps is wrong I knew than when it was done but at the time HQ slots 1 - 275 caused major AI issues if we messed about with them so have a single Corps HQ arriving 2 months early was a small price to pay.

As Jeff pointed out the rest of the Aus OOB when you get down to micro level has a number of units starting in the wrong bases.

As Matt points out sometimes you need to compromise to get a workable compromise within the gaming system.

The OOB for Australia was not perfect units tend to be in the right part of the country but sometimes start int h wrong base and the sub units I chose to represent are not always the ones others would have chosen but no one has came back and said the combat capablity of the Australian Army is fundamentally wrong and at a theatre level the distribution of force between East/West/North and South Australia is broadly correct on 7/12/41 but I accept individual unts may not always be in the correct starting base within those regions sometimes that was for AI reason (South Australia) and sometimes because I had conflicting sources and had to do the best I could

In my defence I was not the Australian Army expert and had to do what I could when our Aussie Army expert had to pull out from the project. - I was brought into AE to do the BRITISH INDIAN ARMY everything else that I got involved in was because others pulled out by the end I was doing a fair bit !!!!

Andy...You did a great job...I should imagine doing the OOB in the Indian theatre would have been far harder.

[Ian R]

Fair enough Andy, no probs.

but no one has came back and said the combat capablity of the Australian Army is fundamentally wrong

Yeah, nah, maybe. Tank devices have a big, big influence on combat outcomes. With the withdraw/1 withdaw/2 functionalities what we should be looking at is 3 x UK TOE armoured divisions on the ConA in early 43, to combat any ongoing incursion by the IJA. The US deilevered about 800 M3 mediums, and some M3 lights in that period, to the point where AC-1 contracts were canned after about 63 were built- and what had been a trickle of motorised became a flood.

It is easy to say that by mid 43 the IJA in Oz would be gonzo pike.

[Andy Mac]

True but thats where game system compromises come in I dont always have the full flexibility i needed.

Australian manpower was extremely limited and in reality was cannibalising units where you can potentially get them all (but very fragile because of lack of replacements) so in relaity could Australia have fielded 3 Armoured/Cav Divs AND 9 Inf Divs and kept them at full strength ?? I think it it was either/or i.e. 3 full strength Armoured Divs or the Inf Divs - you do get potentially 9 full strenght Infantry Divs all of which are capable of taking on at least 1 IJA Div because they have far more attached assets (Arty, Support etc) and I believe from (memory) 3 Motor/Armoured Bdes that dont withdraw plus 9 Independent Armoured Regiments.

The Aus Cav Bbes and Motor Bdes I think their are 4 that reduce to 3 in 43 and 2 in 44 as Motor/Armoured Bdes as included in game have (again from memory) equivalent to 5 move/manouver Bns where an Armoured Div would have had 8

Now each of those Motor/Armoured Brigades are extremely strong and are Armoured Type so they move fast and get multiple TOE upgrades

Between them and the 9 Indpt Armoured Regts (1 of which disbands in 43 and another in 44 I think) you have equivalent to 24 - 29 Move/Manouver Bn's oh look thats c 3 Armoured Divs worth of Armoured type units in Australia.....

The compromise is that as the most typical use of these forces is for supporting invasions and atoll attacks I CHOSE not to have them end up as armoured Divs that are useless for Jungle fighting and invasions.

You pay a small penalty by not having 3 Armoured Divs available but lets face it all three never operated in that fashion and you do get counter Invasion forces to offset any disadvantage if Japan invades South Australia.

Andy

[Andy Mac]

Basically each of those Armoured/Motor Bdes has at least equivalent to organically 3 Armoured Regts, a motor Inf Bn and in some case Armoured Cars or a second Inf Bn they are very very powerfull units

A UK Armoured Div would have had

3 x Armoured Regts
1 x Armoured Recce Regt
1 x Motor Inf Bn
3 x Lorried/Motor Bns

So 8 Combat Bns plus support engineers etc in a Div

The Australian Bdes are almost mini Divs as they all typically have the 3 Armoured regt and at least 1 Motor Bn in TOE plus support.

[traskott]

And they are very strong. I think they are a good compromise. Strong enought to halt japanese invasions at 1942 but not too strong to make "minipanzer divisions" to storm the japanese front.

[btd64]

Sound work Andy.[&o]....GP