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(Reworked) Sino-Soviet 69 scenario reworked v0.9

 
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(Reworked) Sino-Soviet 69 scenario reworked v0.9 - 8/30/2014 9:03:32 AM   
NikolaiEzhov


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Scenario Modification: Sino-Soviet 1969
Originally from Sino-Soviet 1969 by Mr. John Schettler
Modified by Nikolai Ezhov
==PBEM; Soviet PO; Chinese PO not fully tested==

China PLA OOB & TOE redefined. China PO set.
Soviet OOB & TOE redefined.
VP points redefined.
Briefing redefined.

Notes:
1. In 1969, there were at least four types of China PLA infantry divisions, which differs in many aspects: units located north of the Huai River-Qin line was called "the north units", which were from Shenyang, Beijing, Jinan, Wuhan, Lanzhou and Xinjiang Military Districts; while the others were "south units", which were from Nanjing, Guangzhou, Fuzhou, Kunming and Chengdu Military Districts. Both of them also had two types of readiness level: catalogue A and B. Interestingly, the four types of infantry divisions, the North A(北方甲等步兵师,NA), North B(北方乙等步兵师,NB), South A(南方甲等步兵师,SA) and South B(南方乙等步兵师,SB) all held different organzations from the very basic unit. A infantry Squad of NA or NB units contains of 12 soldiers with 2 Type-56 Submachinegun (China-build AK-47 mod 3), 7 Type-56 Semi-auto Rifle (China-build SKS), 1 Type-56 LMG (China-build RPD) and 2 Type-56 Rocket launcher (China-build RPG-2); while a "south" infantry squad contains of 10 soldiers with 6 SKS and 1 RPG-2. So I use Heavy Rifle AT+ Squad to represent the "North" infantry squad and Heavy Rifle AT Squad to the "South" infantry squad. Though most of the divisions in the scenario are "North" units, it should be noted that the PLA 27th and 28th Corps, which just manovered from Fujian MD to Beijing MD in mid-1969 still hold the "south" units' table of organization.
B units held less heavy weapons than A units, especially for mortars and recoiless rifle. As there are no reliable sourse to help me determine which divisions are in catalogue A, so I have to make my guess on my experience: In 1950s PLA once organize some so-called "tank - self propelled artillery regiments"(坦克自行火炮团 ) for some of elite infantry divisions. Though these regiments were deactivated in late 1960s to form new tank divisions, those divisions which once had such a regiment can be consider as a catalogue A unit.

2. In 1969 there were 3 types of PLA tank divisions: catalogue A (甲等坦克师,1st, 2nd and 3rd TD), catalogue B (乙等坦克师,4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 11th) and Reduced Tank Division (简编坦克师,9th, 10th, 12th, 13th). A catalogue A tank division had 4 tank regiments(54 Type-59 Tank each), 1 armored infantry regiment and 1 artillery regiment; a catalogue B tank division had 4 tank regiments (54 each, Type-59 or T-34/85) ; a Reduced TD only had 3 tank regiments (54 each, mostly T-34/85). All of the Cat B or Reduced tank division were organized during 1967-1969 from the former tank - self propolled artillery regiments, which were poorly equipped and organized. All the tank divisions and artillery divisions were directly belonged to the Military District.

3. In 1969 there were only one Motorized Corps in PLA's order of battle -- the 38th Corps consisting of the 112th, 113th and 114th Motorized Infantry Divisions(摩托化步兵师,MotDiv). In any other infantry or artillery divisions porthorses were still the backbone of transportation. I use Fast Horse Team to represent the horse-based transport units, but I don't know whether I've over-estimate the speed of those "horserized"(驮马化) infantry divisions.

4. The "Independent Divisions"(独立师,IndDiv.) were organized during the late 1960s from Public Security (Police) Divisions, which were "lighter" than a normal infantry division; the "Guards Divisions" (警卫师,GdDiv.) were formed to secure the city of beijing, which had the same firepower with a normal Cat B division, however process less transport vehicles and horses; the "Garrision Divisions" (守备师,GarDiv.) were positioned in several defense structures and strongpoints, which had no mobile ability.

5. The "Militia Independent Regiments"(民兵独立团,GurrIndReg.) were fromed in every county during the late 1960s. They were poorly trained and poorly equipped, very fragile and not suitable for holding a ground, but they owned a very very huge manpower(approxiemately 20-30 million men and women!) and being very easy to rebuild.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by NikolaiEzhov -- 10/9/2014 11:08:28 AM >


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RE: (Reworked) Sino-Soviet 69 scenario reworked v0.9 - 2/18/2015 3:59:53 AM   
NikolaiEzhov


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12 downloads, no one comments...

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RE: (Reworked) Sino-Soviet 69 scenario reworked v0.9 - 2/18/2015 8:14:57 AM   
josant

 

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Downloaded. This was the first scenario that I played in TOAW 2 when I purchased the game in 1999.

Your mod is good but i think that a few things must be reworked in the Soviet TO&E; T-55(late) and T-55(improved), both tanks have 60(HEAT) as AT strength, the standard T-55 has 40(HEAT), both tanks have this high AT strength because they are using tube fired anti-tank missiles that were developed at the late 1970s. Also T-55(late) and T-62(late) have enhanced armor because they are using reactive armor (Soviet starts his developement in 1974). So I would change T-55(late)/(improved) by the standard T-55, and T-62(late) by the T-62(improved) in all units.

Good scenario, thanks


(in reply to NikolaiEzhov)
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RE: (Reworked) Sino-Soviet 69 scenario reworked v0.9 - 2/21/2015 2:37:20 AM   
HPT KUNZ

 

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josant, I see by this and previous post you have a good working knowledge of armor technology. I would like to hear your comments on the values in Alpha77's most recent modern equipment. eqp (recently posted on this Forum).

I am working on a modification of Erik Rutins Red Thunder 1988 with his kind permission. In my opinion, is is arguably the best NATO-Warsaw scenario. Would you be so kind as to review it for me?

cheers

(in reply to josant)
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RE: (Reworked) Sino-Soviet 69 scenario reworked v0.9 - 2/21/2015 3:09:54 AM   
HPT KUNZ

 

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Nikolai, thanks for posting this scenario, and your discussion of the modifications. I just started the scenario- I will let you know how it goes.

I recall an SPI boardgame The East is Red which an interesting look the Soviet use of Operational Maneuver Groups in the Far East theater.

As I mentioned in my reply to josant, you also seem to be quite knowledgeable in Sino-Soviet equipement. I would like to hear your comments on Alpha77 most recent .eqp post as well as your opinion on the dozen or so NATO-Warsaw pact scenarios for TOAW.

Thanks for the good work.

< Message edited by HPT KUNZ -- 2/21/2015 4:16:58 AM >

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RE: (Reworked) Sino-Soviet 69 scenario reworked v0.9 - 2/21/2015 10:35:15 AM   
josant

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HPT KUNZ

josant, I see by this and previous post you have a good working knowledge of armor technology. I would like to hear your comments on the values in Alpha77's most recent modern equipment. eqp (recently posted on this Forum).



Good question, but a difficult answer. Under my point of view some values are accurate, but others not (some things like AP or AT strenght needs a revision).However, we must give thanks to Alpha77 for their work and dedication.
I will say that I am working on a new database for my personal use, when I finish it i will share it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: HPT KUNZ
I am working on a modification of Erik Rutins Red Thunder 1988 with his kind permission. In my opinion, is is arguably the best NATO-Warsaw scenario. Would you be so kind as to review it for me?

cheers



The WP TO&E although is not exact, it is quite accurate. But if you need aditional information, there is a document for WP 1989 OOB and TO&E(at the end of document) it can be found here:
http://www.societaitalianastoriamilitare.org/libri%20in%20regalo/2001%20JOHNSON%20Warsaw-Pact-Order-of-Battle-June-1989.pdf

For NATO OOB there is another document:
http://www.microarmormayhem.com/NATO_ORDER_OF_BATTLE_mod_8.doc

(in reply to HPT KUNZ)
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RE: (Reworked) Sino-Soviet 69 scenario reworked v0.9 - 2/21/2015 3:25:48 PM   
RedLion


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Hello Gents. MBT/BMP-1 numbers in scenario might be over-optimistic for Soviet TD & MRD in 1969. The best OOBs for end 60s are from WargameVault or Barry Beldam. Interesting scenario and good update work though.

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RE: (Reworked) Sino-Soviet 69 scenario reworked v0.9 - 2/21/2015 5:19:32 PM   
HPT KUNZ

 

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quote:


The WP TO&E although is not exact, it is quite accurate. But if you need aditional information, there is a document for WP 1989 OOB and TO&E(at the end of document) it can be found here:
http://www.societaitalianastoriamilitare.org/libri%20in%20regalo/2001%20JOHNSON%20Warsaw-Pact-Order-of-Battle-June-1989.pdf

For NATO OOB there is another document:
http://www.microarmormayhem.com/NATO_ORDER_OF_BATTLE_mod_8.doc



Thanks for the links.

Indeed, I used both of Mr. Johnson references in my modification; it seems Erik Rutins also used them since he is almost spot on to Johnson's OBs. My main discrepancy with Rolling Thunderis in the number of Assault Squads. The original version simply used the number of Assault Squads to equal the number of APC in the regiment, giving a significantly greater number of squads than the actual TOE. v.1 uses the actual TOE number of squads.

The original version is also generous with T80s- the scenario has 9000+, whereas only 4000 or so were produced by 1989. Many of the T80s in the original version were actually T84U (pretty much equivalent however), or T72B in the Belorussian stationed Armies. I used Alpha77 values (generally reducing the AP strength and increasing the Armor; i.e.- T72= AT 40, Armor 26 --> 37 and 34 respectively). I anxiously await your modern .eqp.

Note also that Rolling Thunder uses a Movement Bias of 150%. In the game notes Erik explained that is to compensate for no RR lines. I also see that there are no secondary highways. So perhaps an increase movement bias is logical, but I am still looking at that. Any thoughts?
cheers

(in reply to josant)
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RE: (Reworked) Sino-Soviet 69 scenario reworked v0.9 - 3/21/2015 2:13:57 AM   
RyanCrierie


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Nikolai, I'm very interested in your Chinese OOB sources, are they from the Chinese Web; or from Chinese language publications?

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RE: (Reworked) Sino-Soviet 69 scenario reworked v0.9 - 4/10/2015 6:11:50 PM   
NikolaiEzhov


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Nope. There is no official source of PLA OOB at any time since 1949. So I had to dig in every corp/division's unit history until i got the whole OOB at late 1969. The TOE is another story.

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RE: (Reworked) Sino-Soviet 69 scenario reworked v0.9 - 4/10/2015 6:20:18 PM   
NikolaiEzhov


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Well I have to say that Mr. Andy Johnson's Warsaw Pact Order of Battle 1969 is VERY VERY VERY INACCURATE. Too many faults and mistakes. I spend about 6 hours to translate it into Chinese, then spend 3 months to correct it with some Russian references.

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RE: (Reworked) Sino-Soviet 69 scenario reworked v0.9 - 4/10/2015 6:53:30 PM   
NikolaiEzhov


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People's Liberation Army (PLA) order of battle, December 1969
=======================
Beijing MD

24th Corps - Chengde, Hebei
|-Infantry division. 70(InfDiv. 74 before Dec. 1969)
|-Infantry division. 71(former 3rd District, Engineer Corps)
|-Infantry division. 72
27th Corps - Zhangjiakou, Hebei (Wuxi, Jiangsu before Aug. 1969)
|-Infantry division. 79
|-Infantry division. 80
|-Infantry division. 81
28th Corps - Linfen, Shanxi (Putian, Fujian before Nov.20th 1969)
|-Infantry division. 82
|-Infantry division. 83
|-Infantry division. 84
38th Corps - Baoding, Hebei
|-Infantry division. 112
|-Infantry division. 113
|-Infantry division. 114
63th Corps - Taiyuan, Shanxi
|-Infantry division. 187
|-Infantry division. 188
65th Corps - Zhangjiakou, Hebei
|-Infantry division. 193
|-Infantry division. 194
|-Infantry division. 195
66th Corps - Tianjin
|-Infantry division. 196
|-Infantry division. 197
|-Infantry division. 198
69th Corps - Baoding, Hebei
|-Infantry division. 205
|-Infantry division. 206
|-Infantry division. 207
Tank division. 1 - Jixian, Hebei (A)
Tank division. 6 - Fengtai, Beijing (B)
Tank division. 7 - Datong, Shanxi (B)
Tank division. 9 - Changzhi, Shanxi (C)
Artillery division. 5 - Changli, Hebei
Artillery division. 6 - Tongxian, Beijing
Artillery division. 16 - Beijing(Forming)
Anti-air artillery division. 61 - Beijing
Anti-air artillery division. 67 - Beijing
Anti-air artillery division. 68 - Beijing
Beijing MD Garrison division. 1 - Huade, Inner Mongolia
Beijing MD Garrison division. 2 - Baotou, Inner Mongolia
Beijing GD Sentry division. 1
Beijing GD Sentry division. 2
Beijing GD Sentry division. 3
Beijing GD Sentry division. 4
Tianjin GD Independent division
Hebei PMD Independent division
Shanxi PMD Independent division
Neimenggu PMD Independent division


=======================
Shenyang MD

16th Corps - Changchun, Jilin
|-Infantry division. 46
|-Infantry division. 47
|-Infantry division. 48
23rd Corps - Harbin, Heilongjiang
|-Infantry division. 67
|-Infantry division. 68(InfDiv.73 before November)
|-Infantry division. 69
39th Corps - Liaoyang, Liaoning
|-Infantry division. 115
|-Infantry division. 116
|-Infantry division. 117
40th Corps - Jinzhou, Liaoning
|-Infantry division. 118
|-Infantry division. 119
|-Infantry division. 120
46th Corps - Changchun, Jilin
|-Infantry division. 136
|-Infantry division. 137
|-Infantry division. 138(former Infdiv.133)
64th Corps - Dalian, Liaoning
|-Infantry division. 190
|-Infantry division. 191
|-Infantry division. 192
Tank division. 3 - Dandong, Liaoning(A)
Tank division. 4 - Haining, Jilin(A)
Tank division. 5 - Fuxin, Liaoning(B)
Artillery division. 7 - Liaoyang, Liaoning (Dalian before November 1969)
Artillery division. 10 - Haicheng, Liaoning
Artillery division. 11 - Jinzhoum, Liaoning(Liaoyang before November 1969)
Anti-air artillery division. 62 - Shenyang, Liaoning
Anti-air artillery division. 74 - Zhuanghe, Liaoning
Shenyang MD Garrision Division. 1 - Dalian - Lvshun
Shenyang MD Garrision Division. 2 - Jinxian, Liaoning
Shenyang MD Garrision Division. 3 - Zhuanghe
Heilongjiang PMD Independent Division. 2
Liaoning PDM Independent Division. 1 - Juu Uda(now Chifeng), Inner Mongolia (Arrived in October)
Liaoning PDM Independent Division. 2 - Fushun, Liaoning
Jilin PDM Independent Division. 1 - Antu, Jilin
Jilin PDM Independent Division. 2 - Changchun, Jilin
Waichangshan Fortress Region (Corps-size)


=======================
Jinan MD

26th Corps - Weifang, Shandong
|-Infantry division. 76(former Infdiv.33)
|-Infantry division. 77
|-Infantry division. 78
67th Corps - Qingdao, Shandong
|-Infantry division. 199
|-Infantry division. 200
|-Infantry division. 201
68th Corps - Xuzhou, Jiangsu
|-Infantry division. 202
|-Infantry division. 203
|-Infantry division. 204
Tank division. 2 - Jinan, Shandong(B)
Tank division. 8 - Weifang, Shandong(B)
Tank division. 13 - Tai'an, Shandong(C)
Artillery division. 8 - Weifang, Shandong
Artillery division. 12 - Gunzhou, Shandong
Anti-air artillery division. 69 - Jinan, Shandong
Anti-air artillery division. 73 - Jinan, Shandong
Infantry division. 5 - Laiyang, Shandong
Garrision Division. 20
Garrision Division. 25
Garrision Division. 26
Shandong PDM Independent Division. 1
Shandong PDM Independent Division. 2

=======================
Wuhan MD

1st Corps - Kaifeng, Henan
|-Infantry division. 1
|-Infantry division. 2
|-Infantry division. 3
15th Airborne Corps - Xiaogan, Hubei (Belongs to the PLAAF)
|-Airborne Division. 43
|-Airborne Division. 44
|-Airborne Division. 45
17th Corps - Xiaochang, Hubei
|-Infantry division. 49 - Xiaogan, Hubei(Infantry Division. 29 before December)
|-Infantry division. 50 - Xiaochang, Hubei(Henan PMD Ind.Div. 1 Before December)
|-Infantry division. 51 - Xiangfan, Hubei(Hubei PMD Independent division before December)
43rd Corps - Guilin Guangxi→Luoyang, Henan
|-Infantry division. 127
|-Infantry division. 128
|-Infantry division. 129 (Inf.Div. 220 before September)
54th Corps - Xinxiang, Henan
|-Infantry division. 160 (Inf.Div. 170 before September)
|-Infantry division. 161
|-Infantry division. 162
Tank division. 11 - Xinyang, Henan
Artillery division. 2 - Queshan, Henan
Anti-air artillery division. 63 - Kaifeng, Henan
Anti-air artillery division. 71 - Wuhan, Hubei
Henan PMD Independent division


======================
Nanjing MD

12th Corps - Huaiyin, Jiangsu
|-Infantry division. 34
|-Infantry division. 35
|-Infantry division. 36 (Inf.Div. 31 before December)
20th Corps - Hangzhou, Zhejiang
|-Infantry division. 58
|-Infantry division. 59
|-Infantry division. 60
60th Corps - Nanjing, Jiangsu
|-Infantry division. 178
|-Infantry division. 179
|-Infantry division. 180
Tank division. 10 - Jiangning, Jiangsu→Gourong(C)
Artillery division. 3 - Wuxi, Jiangsu
Artillery division. 9 - Wuxi, Jiangsu
Anti-air artillery division. 66 - Nanjing, Jiangsu
Anti-air artillery division. 75 - Nanjing, Jiangsu
Nanjing MD Garrison Division. 1 - Gaoqiao, Shanghai
Shanghai Security District, Security Division. 1
Shanghai Security District, Security Division. 2
Garrsion Division. 18
Jiangsu PMD Independent Division. 1
Jiangsu PMD Independent Division. 2
Anhui PMD Independent Division. 1
Zhejiang PMD Independent Division. 1
Zhejiang PMD Independent Division. 2
Zhousheng Fortress Region (Corps-size)


=====================
Fuzhou MD

29th Corps
|-Infantry division. 85
|-Infantry division. 86
|-Infantry division. 87
31th Corps - Xiamen, Fujian
|-Infantry division. 91
|-Infantry division. 92
|-Infantry division. 93
Anti-air artillery division. 64 - Fuzhou, Fujian
Fuzhou MD Garrison Division. 1(Gar.Div. 7 before December)
Fuzhou MD Garrison Division. 2(Gar.Div. 13 before December)
Fuzhou MD Garrison Division. 3(Gar.Div. 8 before December)
Jiangxi PMD Independent division
Fujian PMD Independent division. 1
Fujian PMD Independent division. 2


====================
Lanzhou MD

19th Corps - Wuwei, Gansu
|-Infantry division. 55
|-Infantry division. 56
|-Infantry division. 57
21st Corps - Baoji, Shannxi
|-Infantry division. 61
|-Infantry division. 62
|-Infantry division. 63
Tank division. 12 - Beijing→Jiuquan, Gansu(C)
Artillery division. 13 Urumqi, Xinjiagn (then organizing)
Artillery division. 15 Yongdeng, Gansu
Shannxi PMD Independent division
Gansu PMD Independent division
Ningxia PMD Independent division
Qinghai PMD Independent division


=======================
Chengdu MD

13th Corps - Chongqing, Sichuan
|-Infantry division. 37
|-Infantry division. 38
|-Infantry division. 39
50th Corps - Chengdu, Sichuan
|-Infantry division. 148
|-Infantry division. 149 (Inf.Div. 52 before December)
|-Infantry division. 150
Infantry division. 11 Shigatse, Tibet(?)
Infantry division. 53 Shigatse, Tibet
Chengdu MD Independent Division. 1


=======================
Kunming MD

11th Corps - Dali, Yunnan (formed mid 1969)
|-Infantry division. 31(Inf.Div. 49 before December)
|-Infantry division. 32
14th Corps - Kunming, Yunnan
|-Infantry division. 40
|-Infantry division. 41
|-Infantry division. 42
Artillery division. 4 - Qujing, Yunnan
Anti-air artillery division. 65 - Kunming, Yunnan
Guizhou PMD Independent division
Yunnan PMD Independent division


=======================
Guangzhou MD

41st Corps - Shantou, Guangdong→Liuzhou(October 1969)
|-Infantry division. 121
|-Infantry division. 122
|-Infantry division. 123
42nd Corps - Huizhou, Guangdong
|-Infantry division. 124
|-Infantry division. 125
|-Infantry division. 126
47th Corps - Changsha, Hunan
|-Infantry division. 139
|-Infantry division. 140
|-Infantry division. 141
55th Corps - Chaoan,Guangdong
|-Infantry division. 163
|-Infantry division. 164
|-Infantry division. 165
Hainan Military District
Infantry Division. 132 - Hainan
Anti-air artillery division. 70 - Guangzhou, Guangdong
Artillery division. 1 - Qujiang, Guangdong
Guangdong PMD Independent Division
Guangxi PMD Independent Division. 1(Nanning Independent division)
Guangxi PMD Independent Division. 2(Hefu Independent division before December)
Hunan PMD Independent division
Yulin Fortress Region (Division-size)
Garrision Division. 27


=======================
Xinjiang MD

Xinjiang MD Independent division - Urumqi, Xinjiang
Infantry division. 4
Infantry division. 6
Infantry division. 7
Infantry division. 8
Infantry division. 9
Infantry division. 10
Xinjiang Production and Construction Army - Urumqi, Xinjiang
|-Agricultural Division. 1 - Aksu
|-Agricultural Division. 2 - Korla
|-Agricultural Division. 3 - Kashgar
|-Agricultural Division. 4 - Yining
|-Agricultural Division. 5 - Bole
|-Agricultural Division. 6 - Wujiaqu
|-Agricultural Division. 7 - Kuitun
|-Agricultural Division. 8 - Shihezi
|-Agricultural Division. 9 - Emin
|-Agricultural Division. 10 - Beitun
|-Construction Engineer Division - Urumqi
=======================



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(in reply to RyanCrierie)
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RE: (Reworked) Sino-Soviet 69 scenario reworked v0.9 - 4/13/2015 3:14:23 PM   
NikolaiEzhov


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I've redefined Soviet TO&E. However something weird happens and I can't edit my post now...
Fortunately the attachment has been updated.
regards.

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