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Newbie combat question - 12/27/2011 1:49:51 PM   
jonpfl

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 3/26/2005
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All,

Really enjoying the game but I have some questiosn in regard to combat

When I am looking at units before attacking, I can never figure out what is the best choice (rock - paper - scissor)

1) When attacking with infantry on a tank, would I look at the attack value of infantry on a hard target and look at the ground defense of the tank to get an idea?

2) When is close defense figured into the equation? If a tank is in the town and I attacked it with infantry, do I use the infantry attack value for hard target and look at the close defense value of the tank?

3) How come there are various values for attacking (soft and hard) but only one value for defending (ground) for ground units?

Any idea if there is a thread anywhere that goes over all of this?

Thx
jonpfl
Post #: 1
RE: Newbie combat question - 12/27/2011 2:02:47 PM   
jonpfl

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 3/26/2005
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All,

I found this screenshot in the forum, can someone go over it step by step and explain to me?

Thx
jonpfl




Attachment (1)

(in reply to jonpfl)
Post #: 2
RE: Newbie combat question - 12/27/2011 4:03:15 PM   
Rood


Posts: 67
Joined: 7/16/2011
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I'll try to give an explanation for all your questions which are all related.

First if you go to the Library (F1) and go to Terrain you will see a column 'Special properties' which lists which terrain type uses the 'Close defense' value when a unit is attacking another unit (not just armor) which is in such a hex.

Depending on the 'Target Type' Either the soft or hard attack value is used. And depending on the terrain in which the defending unit is either ground or close defense is used.

In regards to the screenshot.
- every unit has a initiative, intitive can be capped by weather and/or terrain (see the library again). For example a tank attacking an infantry unit inside a forest hex will not use the initiave of the tank but that of the terrain (which for forest is 2).
The difference between the initiative (the effective initiative that is so after the dice roll) will tell how many shots (percentage) the defending unit can return.
The formula is (for ground combat for air it's different) that for every point in difference 20% of the defending unit cannot shoot back.
So in this case the difference is 3, therefore 60% of the defending unit cannot shoot back. In this case the strength of the defending unit is two, 0.4 * 2 = 0.8 and the game rounds this up to 1. However if the defending unit was 10 strenght then only 4 units could shoot back. This is shown on the lower right side where it says 'Unsurpressed strenght: 1'
- The defending unit is an infantry unit so the soft attack value is used, also the defending unit is in a forest hex so the close defense is used
- When the defending unit is shooting back it also uses his soft attack value and the close defense value of the attackers.

Based on the attack and defense values a sort of combat results table (CRT) is made and then for every point of strenght of the attacking unit a die roll is made**.
The kill change is 53% and therefore the attacker needs to roll 47 or higher for a kill. As you can see there are 10 rolls made, and 6 are higher than 47 so the defending unit is totally destroyed. Then the defending unit shoots back and it needs to roll 51 or higher for a kill but it rolls 47 which results in a surpression result.

** for artillery there's another factor which is the rate of fire (RoF), basically the lower the RoF the less dice are rolled.

I hope I have explained it correctly and you can understand what I wrote.

(in reply to jonpfl)
Post #: 3
RE: Newbie combat question - 12/27/2011 4:31:12 PM   
jonpfl

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 3/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rood

I'll try to give an explanation for all your questions which are all related.

First if you go to the Library (F1) and go to Terrain you will see a column 'Special properties' which lists which terrain type uses the 'Close defense' value when a unit is attacking another unit (not just armor) which is in such a hex.

Depending on the 'Target Type' Either the soft or hard attack value is used. And depending on the terrain in which the defending unit is either ground or close defense is used.

In regards to the screenshot.
- every unit has a initiative, intitive can be capped by weather and/or terrain (see the library again). For example a tank attacking an infantry unit inside a forest hex will not use the initiave of the tank but that of the terrain (which for forest is 2).
The difference between the initiative (the effective initiative that is so after the dice roll) will tell how many shots (percentage) the defending unit can return.
The formula is (for ground combat for air it's different) that for every point in difference 20% of the defending unit cannot shoot back.
So in this case the difference is 3, therefore 60% of the defending unit cannot shoot back. In this case the strength of the defending unit is two, 0.4 * 2 = 0.8 and the game rounds this up to 1. However if the defending unit was 10 strenght then only 4 units could shoot back. This is shown on the lower right side where it says 'Unsurpressed strenght: 1'
- The defending unit is an infantry unit so the soft attack value is used, also the defending unit is in a forest hex so the close defense is used
- When the defending unit is shooting back it also uses his soft attack value and the close defense value of the attackers.

Based on the attack and defense values a sort of combat results table (CRT) is made and then for every point of strenght of the attacking unit a die roll is made**.
The kill change is 53% and therefore the attacker needs to roll 47 or higher for a kill. As you can see there are 10 rolls made, and 6 are higher than 47 so the defending unit is totally destroyed. Then the defending unit shoots back and it needs to roll 51 or higher for a kill but it rolls 47 which results in a surpression result.

** for artillery there's another factor which is the rate of fire (RoF), basically the lower the RoF the less dice are rolled.

I hope I have explained it correctly and you can understand what I wrote.


Yes, thank you thank you thank you

Is there any way to see this info in game vs having to go to the library? I would like to be able to hover over some terrain and see these values

Thx
jonpfl

(in reply to Rood)
Post #: 4
RE: Newbie combat question - 12/27/2011 6:51:39 PM   
Rood


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Joined: 7/16/2011
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Clear, Countryside, Airfield and Fortification use the ground defense values.
So do rivers but you don't want to attack (in most cases) from a river hex as the defending unit gets a bonus to his defense value.
The rest all use the close defense value.

Basically if it costs you more than 1 movement point to enter (except cities) than it uses close defense values.

The reason for this - and that initiative is capped - is that there's limited visibility, at least there's only short range visibility. So long range guns don't work well at all since you cannot see/target very far anyway because all kinds of obstacles (houses, trees, hills etc).

< Message edited by Rood -- 12/27/2011 6:52:31 PM >

(in reply to jonpfl)
Post #: 5
RE: Newbie combat question - 12/28/2011 11:42:22 AM   
VPaulus

 

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From: Portugal
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Thanks, Rood.
I've just add this thread to Sticky Common Question, in Slitherine forum.
www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=252116

(in reply to Rood)
Post #: 6
RE: Newbie combat question - 12/30/2011 12:56:59 AM   
jonpfl

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 3/26/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rood

Clear, Countryside, Airfield and Fortification use the ground defense values.
So do rivers but you don't want to attack (in most cases) from a river hex as the defending unit gets a bonus to his defense value.
The rest all use the close defense value.

Basically if it costs you more than 1 movement point to enter (except cities) than it uses close defense values.

The reason for this - and that initiative is capped - is that there's limited visibility, at least there's only short range visibility. So long range guns don't work well at all since you cannot see/target very far anyway because all kinds of obstacles (houses, trees, hills etc).


So I am assuming you want to defend in close defense, right? I looked at some of my infantry units and their close defense value is 2 which isn't very high. It seems that my ground defense values are higher.

That seems backwards to me

Thx
jonpfl

(in reply to Rood)
Post #: 7
RE: Newbie combat question - 12/30/2011 8:26:33 AM   
Rood


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Ground defense values are always higher than close defense values but it's a bit more complicated than just that.

It also depends on what kinds of units are attacking each other.
If for example a tank is sitting in a forest hex (and forest is close terrain) and if it's attacked by infantry then the tank will use it's close defense value. This is good since the ground defense value of a tank is usually much higher than it's close defense value.
However if that same tank in the forest hex is attacked by another tank than it will use it's ground defense value.

So with infantry you always want to attack 'Hard' targets when they are in close terrain so they will use their close defense values making them much more vulnerable for attacks.
As a tank/recon you should prefer not to be in close terrain since you will be more vulnerable from attacks from infantry.

If a another tank (or anti-tank, even towed AT) attacks a tank in close terrain then the ground defense value is used.

Now when a tank is attacking infantry in either flat or close terrain the ground defense of the infantry is used. However when an infantry is in a close terrain hex it will usually be entrenched (every terrain has a base entrenchment value which is gained the next turn after entering that hex) and therefore there's a higher change Rugged Defense will occur, and that gives bonusses (the initiative for attacking unit is set at zero, defending unit gets +4 to it's defense value).

A good way to learn more about the combat mechanics is to use CTRL + mouse click to get the predicted combat results then you can see all the factors involved in the combat.

(in reply to jonpfl)
Post #: 8
RE: Newbie combat question - 12/30/2011 1:57:32 PM   
jonpfl

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 3/26/2005
Status: offline
Ok, this is making sense

If a unit with net initiative 8 is attacked by a unit with net initiative 2, would the tank go first?

Is it possible for a unit with really low initiative to attack and not go first? Does net initiative determine who goes first?

I know it sounds obvious this is the case but just making sure

Thx
jonpfl

(in reply to Rood)
Post #: 9
RE: Newbie combat question - 12/30/2011 1:59:57 PM   
jonpfl

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 3/26/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jonpfl

All,

I found this screenshot in the forum, can someone go over it step by step and explain to me?

Thx
jonpfl





And what is the dice roll for? Why does it say +0 and +2?

Thx
jonpfl

(in reply to jonpfl)
Post #: 10
RE: Newbie combat question - 12/30/2011 7:51:43 PM   
Rood


Posts: 67
Joined: 7/16/2011
Status: offline
quote:

edit 23 june 2013: below is the original post which may not be accurate anymore, below the quoted text is the information I've posted on the slitherine forum which should be up to date.

As to who shoots first, yes initiative does decide who shoots first.

After the effective iniative has been calculated either the attacker or defender will shoot first.

If the attacker has the highest initiative then it will shoot with his available strength, then it's calculated by using the initiative of both units and some other factors how many units (= dice rolls) of the defender shoot back.

If the defending unit has a higher initiative then it will shoot first and with it's full available (unsurpressed) strenght left. Then after the defender has fired the attacker will shoot back using the same calculation (i.e. 20% doesn't shoot back for every point in initiative the defender has more than the attacker).
You usually want to avoid this, either reduce the defenders unit's strenght and/or supress it with artillery and air attacks.

As to the dice roll that is shown. For every attack a dice roll from 0 to 3 is made. This is a random variable that is used to make the results, well, more random .

So even if you have all the factor's there's still a matter of luck/randomness involved. So even if you attack and you have a initiative of 7 and the enemey has 2 then you don't expect any losses since the enemy will not be able to return fire. However if you roll a 0 and the enemey rolls a 3 then it will defend with 60% of it's strength.

Note that this dice roll is always added last and after the other factors have been used, so for example when attacking a unit in a forest which terrain has a cap for initiative of 2 then a dice roll is made and if that is 2 for example the effective initiative will be 4, so higher than the cap.

And btw, there's still more to be said about initiative since some attacks have special rules, for example when an AT unit is attacking a tank or recon it gets a bonus to it's initiative of 3.

And I'm not sure if I have told that for every unit that you have adjacent (and has not fired yet) to the unit you are going to attack the defending unit will get a -1 penalty for it's initiative.
So when you have 3 unit's adjacent that have not fired yet and you attack with one of those units the defender will get a -2 penalty to it's initiative calculation.

Edit: wrote wrong info, it's correct now (I hope )

This is from the slitherine forum updated with some additional information
The calculations for the Effective Initiative decide two things, the unit with the highest initiative will shoot first - regardless if it's the attacker or the defender - and then, the difference between the initiative of the attacker and defender determines how many units can return fire.

[EDIT]
The section below was changed - see the response below from Rudankort
quote:


It is not quite like this. Initiative advantage of 4 means that 80% of damage is caused to the enemy before he has a chance to react. In this particular case your attack has caused 3 kills and 1 suppression. From these, 80% are applied upfront:
- 80% from 3 kills is 2.4 kills, rounded to 2.
- 80% from 1 suppression is 0.8 suppression, rounded to 1.

So, a total of 3 points of enemy's strength were disabled before he could shoot back. So he only responded to your attack with 7 points of strength out of 10.


For every point of difference in initiative a unit has over the other unit 20% of the (unsurpressed strength of the) there will be a chance that the other unit will not be able to shoot back.
Therefore if the difference is 5 or more and if the attack causes enough kills and/or surpression the other unit will not shoot back (5 * 20% = 100%).
Fractions are rounded up, so if the a unit is at 4 strength and the difference in initiative is 3 then 60% of 4 will have a chance to not be able return fire, so (1 - 0.6) * 4 = 1.6 and this is rounded up to 2.

Note that if the unit is already (partly) surpressed then only the unsurpressed strength of the unit is used to calculate the amount of units that have a chance to return fire.

This does not apply to artillery versus ground units as defending units cannot return fire ever when being attacked by artillery (even if the artillery unit has a range of 1).

Initiative elements and Effective Initiave
Apart from the attacking and defending unit's base initiave there are many other factors involved, some will add or substract initiative for either or both the attacking and defending unit. There can also be a maximum allowed initiative, a so called cap, due to weather and/or terrain

Weather can cap ininitiave - Rain or Snow caps the initiative at one
Terrain can cap initiative - see the Library.
Note that it's always the terrain of the defending unit that determines any factors regarding any initiative cap.

Hero bonus
Any bonus of a hero is added to the calculation

Experience bonus
The experience of the unit is partially added to the base of the units intiative, this depends on the type of units attacking.

Initiative bonus for each (full) experience star.
Tank vs Tank 10%
AT vs Tank 5%
Inf vs Tank 0%
Recon vs Tank ?

So if a tank with 4 stars and 9 base initiative attacking another tank it would get 4 * 10% * 9 = 3.6 -> rounded down to 3 added to it's intiative.

Note that the Experience bonus is calculated at the end, the Experience bonus is the shown percentage of the experience and is always rounded down. For example a unit with 10 initiative and 100 experience (equals one star) would usually gain +1 bonus to initiative from experience, however if that unit is attacked by multiple units and therefore gets a -1 penalty from Multiple Attack it's experience would now be 9 and then 10% of 9 would be 0.9 which will be rounded down so effectively it's zero.

If a Tank or Recon attacks an AT unit the AT gets +3 added to it's intiative.

Ambushed/Rugged Defense initiative set to zero (for the ambushed unit or for the attacker against a defender who gained rugged defense)

Multiple attacking units (not artillery - even it has a range of 1) -1 for each unit attacking beyond the first.

No Fuel -2 penalty

A die roll 1-2 is made for both attacker and defender.
This roll is added after the other factors have been determined and the result is always added to the calculated total and is not affected by either weather or terrain cap. Therefore the Effective Iniative can be higher than the cap would allow.

< Message edited by Rood -- 6/23/2013 10:49:51 AM >

(in reply to jonpfl)
Post #: 11
RE: Newbie combat question - 12/30/2011 8:03:54 PM   
jonpfl

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 3/26/2005
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Awesome stuff,

Thanks a lot, you have taught me a lot

Happy New Year
jonpfl

(in reply to Rood)
Post #: 12
RE: Newbie combat question - 12/31/2011 8:10:46 AM   
Rood


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Actually I was wrong:

The attacker does not always shoot first, initiative decides who shoots first and if the defender has a much higher initiative the attacker might not shoot at all!

Obviously I never attack under these circumstances.

I'll rewrite what I posted above so as not to spread wrong information around!

Happy new year aswell!

(in reply to jonpfl)
Post #: 13
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