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Repairs - 9/27/2008 4:08:54 PM   
JWE

 

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Just a quickie, to answer some questions from Elf’s AAR thread. Can't get deeper into detail. Still being worked on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152
Ship Damage - flooding, I see the Yorktown shows flooding of 92 (59) major. Will it sink of minor flood goes from 92 to 100, or does it only sink if major flooding goes to 100?

There’s three kinds of damage; Engine (new), System, Flotation. Two degrees of damage, damage and major damage. Major damage is part of ‘damage’. Lots of discussion still going on as to just what to call this; maybe minor/major damage, maybe flooding/damage, whatever.

The Yorkie, in the example, has 92 total points of FlotDam. 59 of those represent major damage. Major FlotDam is things like bow blown off, very large holes in the hull, ship girder strained, etc.. The rest (33 points) represents additional flooding and the minor damage consequent thereto; small holes, warped/sprung plates, interior bulkheads giving way, etc..

The additional flooding part (and it’s attendant damage) is stuff a damage control party “may” be able to fix (sooner or later, depending on extent). Major FlotDam is shipyard (or ARD) time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Quick question about the major flooding/shipyard repair issue.

Is there ANY way to temporarily patch the holes at a minor port so a ship with heavy major float damage can have a prayers chance in hades of making to a repair yard?

I envision a ship with 80+ major float damage limping back to a minor port where the non-major float damage is dealt with yet the ship remains unable to move from that minor port to a repair yard because the major float damage would increase along the journey at too fast a rate for the ship to ever make it to the repair yard.

Are we going to end up with a map littered with heavily damaged ships stuck for the duration of the war in minor ports? Or, will we be able to move a repair ship to that port to patch up the damage sufficiently to allow the ship to return to a major repair yard?

Damage control will attempt to stabilize the ship; reduce/stop further intake. Then they pump out the consequent flooding (quickly, or slowly, depending) and repair the “minor” damage portion while they are at it.

At their best, and given enough time, they can only reduce FlotDam down to the major damage level. With the “little” things fixed, the ship is stable enough to make her way (slowly, very slowly) to a suitable port with a suitable shipyard. Always a chance of catastrophic failure to repairs.

Ports give a benefit to repair work. Bigger the port, better the benefit. ARs also expedite repairs, SAIEW. There is a new support unit “Naval Support” that represents (among other things) machinists, fitters, yard rats, etc. that provides an additional benefit to a port’s repair capability, when present. Need a big port or an AR to fix major SysDam; only a shipyard or an ARD can fix major FlotDam.
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RE: Repairs - 9/27/2008 4:35:40 PM   
csatahajos

 

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Sounds very good to me! So this means that torp hits will mainly cause major float damage, that can't be reapired easily. I only hope that single torps won't be able to cause 50+ to even BBs as it was in WitP.

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RE: Repairs - 9/27/2008 5:18:45 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: csatahajos
Sounds very good to me! So this means that torp hits will mainly cause major float damage, that can't be reapired easily. I only hope that single torps won't be able to cause 50+ to even BBs as it was in WitP.

Not ‘strictly’ true, but kinda close. The routines that cause damage are different from the routines that repair damage. Damage resulting from bad things that come from directions so as to impact the ‘belt’, i.e., torps, mines, some bombs, some shells, is primarily directed to FlotDam, with (of course) a chance for some of the damage to be ‘major’.

The totals may well be similar to stock, but how much, and what %, of the total will be major is a function of the beloved die rolls. Don’t forget, though, that stock will eventually repair everything to 0, given enough time. In AE, any amount of major FlotDam will remain forever, unless and until you get to a RepairYard or an ARD.

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RE: Repairs - 9/27/2008 8:29:25 PM   
witpqs


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This is great, but I have a semi-devil in the details type question. As posed by an earlier poster, sometimes a ship got damaged badly with major type flooding damage and made it to a small or medium port. Said ship was then extensively patched up for the express purpose of allowing it to get back to a major port.

In other words, the major type flooding damage was mitigated but not eliminated, although the actual flooding might have been eliminated.

Clearly a ship in such a state is fragile. Still, it seems the ship is better off than if the same level of major type flooding damage was unmitigated. How do the routines treat such a ship?

I hope I've been able to clearly express my question. Shout back if it's confusing.

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RE: Repairs - 9/27/2008 11:28:22 PM   
pompack


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[
Not AE, but real world

One of the best examples of forward repair is Tulagi's role as a repair port, probably level 1 or 2 port, during the Guadalcanal campaign Ships were given field repairs which allowed some weights to be removed, wreckage cut away, minor internal leaks to be plugged and flooded compartments that were not open to the sea to be dewatered. Stability control was probably the most significant feature of these repairs since free-surface flooding with excessive topweight was the major danger once back on the open sea. However a missing bow was still gone and compartments opened to the sea by torpedo damage that extended past the protective system were still flooded. The fact that CAs with exactly this sort of damage returned to PH indicates that this forward repair was effective in stopping (or at least drastically reducing) progressive flooding and providing sufficient stability to face typical Pacific weather on a long voyage. OTOH nothing further could be done without access to a drydock.

From the description, it seems that AE models this sort of repair much better than basic WitP.

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RE: Repairs - 9/27/2008 11:36:51 PM   
Elouda

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack


[

From the description, it seems that AE models this sort of repair much better than basic WitP.



Sounds like it to me too, with a small chance for something to go 'wrong', if I understood correctly. My bets on that things tend to go 'wrong' far less for the allies when that magical DC button is on.

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RE: Repairs - 9/27/2008 11:45:08 PM   
wdolson

 

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If you can get to a minor port and wait for the minor float damage to be repaired.  ie the only float damage left is major damage.  The ship is assumed to be shored up and pretty much ready for moving, but not at high speed.  The odds of the ship getting back to a larger port for complete repairs is pretty good at that point.  There is an event at sea that temporary fixes may fail and it may begin flooding again, but it's a rare event.

Repair is very different from the original game.  You will probably want to put your ARs in forward ports to assist in patching up damaged ships.  They give no bonus to ship yards as they did in the original game.  There is also a new type of support squad: naval support.  Naval support can also assist in ship repair with AR and pier side repair.  (They have no effect on ship yard repair.)

Major naval HQs have naval support and a lot of other support units have naval support too.

You also have control over repair assignments, so you can assign critical projects to the shipyard and leave others to wait.  You can also boost priority on those ships you want in action soonest.  No more waiting while a BB sits in a port for an extended period while other ships get repaired around it. 

The AI uses the old repair routines though.  The decisions required for the new repair was just too complex for the computer to do on its own.

Tulagi during Guadalcanal in game terms would have a fair bit of naval support and an AR or two.  Enough to fix a few points of minor damage and stabilize ships with float damage so they don't sink on their way back to Pearl, but that's about it.

Bill


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RE: Repairs - 9/28/2008 2:01:50 AM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elouda


quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack


[

From the description, it seems that AE models this sort of repair much better than basic WitP.



Sounds like it to me too, with a small chance for something to go 'wrong', if I understood correctly. My bets on that things tend to go 'wrong' far less for the allies when that magical DC button is on.


Pennsylvania makes an interesting case study for the "things go wrong" event. Hit by one torpedo with "critical damage" she was patched up at Okinawa (lots of AR's) and sent back to PH. On the way progressive flooding re-occured causing some tense moments I'm sure (minor float damage increasing day by day). Put into drydock at PH, she was patched (not repaired) and completely pumped out. On the way back to the West Coast on two screws she literally lost a shaft and progressive flooding started again. She finally made Seatle after a few more tense moments

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RE: Repairs - 9/28/2008 4:11:51 AM   
wdolson

 

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If a ship springs a leak at sea, the Allies have a DC advantage in stabilizing the ship.  However, there are some repair events that a ship may not recover from like an explosion while under going repairs.  It's so rare it's never been seen in play test, but it can happen.

We should have a prize for the first person to run into one of these rare repair disasters.

Bill


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RE: Repairs - 9/28/2008 3:33:54 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

If a ship springs a leak at sea, the Allies have a DC advantage in stabilizing the ship.  However, there are some repair events that a ship may not recover from like an explosion while under going repairs.  It's so rare it's never been seen in play test, but it can happen.

We should have a prize for the first person to run into one of these rare repair disasters.

Bill



Explosion while undergoing repair. Is this similar to the RL event of Mutsu blowing up at anchorage?

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RE: Repairs - 9/29/2008 8:41:47 AM   
Kull


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The AI uses the old repair routines though.  The decisions required for the new repair was just too complex for the computer to do on its own.


I assume this means the AI cannot differentiate between major-minor repairs, and thus can repair all damage at non-shipyard ports? And presumably the AI can make use of the "naval support" squads, and AR's work for the AI in shipyard ports?

In a related vein, will the AI send "float-damaged" ships to a nearby port instead of forcing them to complete the journey or return to the home port?

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Post #: 11
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