MWiF & WiTP-AE, Can the Two Worlds Co-Exist?

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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rkr1958
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MWiF & WiTP-AE, Can the Two Worlds Co-Exist?

Post by rkr1958 »

Below are the relevant parts that I posted and response I've gotten so far in "another thread". Not to hijack that other thread (which by the way just got locked but not because of me!), I decided to start my own. I'm interested in what others may think about the potential to learn and play both MWiF and WiTP-AE at an "adequately fun level".

MWiF = Matrix's World in Flames.
ORIGINAL: rkr1958
I've got a birthday coming up this month and was thinking about getting WiTP-AE as a present for myself.

How would you compare this game's learning curve and ability to play competently to that of MWiF?

Can you be an avid player of both MWiF and WiTP-AE and still have a life? That is, function "adequately" with family, friends and at work?
ORIGINAL: warspite1
They are both complex games, they both need time to understand let alone master. From an intellectual point of view, if you can understand MWIF then you can certainly get to grips with WITP-AE.

So learning curve is not an 'issue'. More importantly these two are very, very different games and so its not just a question of the learning curve, its what you want from a game and what you find fun.

FWIW I would say (and of course this depends how much spare time you can devote) if you were to set out to learn WITP-AE then you would need to give MWIF a miss for a good while in order to really get under the hood of this game.

That said there are the smaller scenarios. These will give you a feel for what WITP-AE is about and how it plays in a managed way before taking the plunge.

Personally I do not regret buying WITP-AE - and I still hope to come back to it when I retire.

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RE: MWiF & WiTP-AE, Can the Two Worlds Co-Exist?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

Does MWiF have a working AI?
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RE: MWiF & WiTP-AE, Can the Two Worlds Co-Exist?

Post by BBfanboy »

Had a look at the WiF product info - while I am sure it would be somewhat fun to play, I cannot conceive of adequately dealing with the whole war across the whole world in only 36 turns. Just too large a scale for me - I want to see the individual combats as they take place.
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RE: MWiF & WiTP-AE, Can the Two Worlds Co-Exist?

Post by btd64 »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Does MWiF have a working AI?

I think they are or were working on an AI. I have access to the design Forum for WiF and I will see, although I don't think I can reveal the answer....GP
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RE: MWiF & WiTP-AE, Can the Two Worlds Co-Exist?

Post by rkr1958 »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Does MWiF have a working AI?
No. An AI is on the promise list but my bet, and it's only me bet, is that we're talking 5 (very optimistic) to 10 years (optimistic to realistic) if ever.

However, MWiF is the best wargame by far that I've ever played. I just love the scope and magnitude of it. My play up until recently has been solo. I really don't play it as a game but as an "historical" experience of realistic alternate WW2 realities.

I will say that MWiF has given me insights into why certain things happened the way they did. For example, Japan's surprise attack on the US Pacific fleet at Pearl Harbor. MWiF starts off in Sep/Oct 1939 with Germany's DOW on Poland. Japan is at war with China and controls Manchuria and Korea. The USA wants no part of any of this; i.e., the War in Europe and in the Pacific. As the game progresses the USA gets more interested and when certain conditions are met passes embargo's on strategic material and then oil sent to Japan. Also, the USA begins ramping up its war industry and moves their Pacific fleet from the West Coast to Hawaii. Japan feels the squeeze of all this but especially the lack of oil. There sits raw resources and oil to Japan's south in CW and Dutch controlled possessions in the South China Sea. So, Japan decides to hit the USA and CW before they hit them so that they can grab these needed resources and expand their Pacific defensive perimeter west into the Bay of Bengal and East into the Solomons and Marianas as a shield to maintain their flow of oil and raw resources necessary to fed their war machine.

Now, none of this is scripted and all games play differently. But this is usually how my games play out in the Pacific.
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RE: MWiF & WiTP-AE, Can the Two Worlds Co-Exist?

Post by rkr1958 »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Had a look at the WiF product info - while I am sure it would be somewhat fun to play, I cannot conceive of adequately dealing with the whole war across the whole world in only 36 turns. Just too large a scale for me - I want to see the individual combats as they take place.
Each turn is divided up into impulses. Short, bad weather turns, may only last 3 impulses but long fine weather summer turns may last up to 12 impulses. A typical game where I play 10 to 20 hours per week takes me 6-months to complete.

Weather plays a big part with the world divided into 6 weather zones. So in Jul/Aug you're likely to have fine weather in Europe and the Med but monsoons (i.e., storms) in southern China, Burma, Dutch East Indies, South China Sea, etc.
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RE: MWiF & WiTP-AE, Can the Two Worlds Co-Exist?

Post by Yaab »

Would love to play WiF, but still waiting for working AI.
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RE: MWiF & WiTP-AE, Can the Two Worlds Co-Exist?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Does MWiF have a working AI?
No. An AI is on the promise list but my bet, and it's only me bet, is that we're talking 5 (very optimistic) to 10 years (optimistic to realistic) if ever.

However, MWiF is the best wargame by far that I've ever played. I just love the scope and magnitude of it. My play up until recently has been solo. I really don't play it as a game but as an "historical" experience of realistic alternate WW2 realities.

I will say that MWiF has given me insights into why certain things happened the way they did. For example, Japan's surprise attack on the US Pacific fleet at Pearl Harbor. MWiF starts off in Sep/Oct 1939 with Germany's DOW on Poland. Japan is at war with China and controls Manchuria and Korea. The USA wants no part of any of this; i.e., the War in Europe and in the Pacific. As the game progresses the USA gets more interested and when certain conditions are met passes embargo's on strategic material and then oil sent to Japan. Also, the USA begins ramping up its war industry and moves their Pacific fleet from the West Coast to Hawaii. Japan feels the squeeze of all this but especially the lack of oil. There sits raw resources and oil to Japan's south in CW and Dutch controlled possessions in the South China Sea. So, Japan decides to hit the USA and CW before they hit them so that they can grab these needed resources and expand their Pacific defensive perimeter west into the Bay of Bengal and East into the Solomons and Marianas as a shield to maintain their flow of oil and raw resources necessary to fed their war machine.

Now, none of this is scripted and all games play differently. But this is usually how my games play out in the Pacific.

I knew it doesn't have an AI. I posed that more to be polite than anything. I go by the MWiF forum every once in awhile. Less now than a year ago. It's pretty dead. The launch of that game . . . not going there on a forum paid for by the publisher. Just, "things that make you go hmmmm."

AE is different. It "only" covers the world from Karachi to NYC, but it's very detailed in that space. It has a lot less politics and political decision ramifications. It's about fighting and logistics pretty much. Training and other things, but war-fighting. You're not a politician.

My current PBEM with Lokasenna started three years ago this month. We're in June 1944. So, yeah. Not six months.

AE doesn't use counters. I hate counters. Some people love them. I don't.

MWIF was, as far as I know from the forum, developed by one guy in his apartment in Honolulu. Right? It's still not close to finished. I understand he's not in great health, so it might never be finished. AE is finished. You can play AI, PBEM, head-to-head. You have scenarios and GC. You can play either side, which is like checkers versus chess. Two completely different games for the price of one.

This forum is the most active on the big board. Dozens of posts a day. When I look at the master forum list often only 4-5 games get even one post a day. The forum comes at no extra charge.

So, your call. But playing myself with no AI--that alone--makes it a no-brainer for AE. And PBEM is better.
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RE: MWiF & WiTP-AE, Can the Two Worlds Co-Exist?

Post by BradK82 »

Can WITPAE be played hotseat on a single computer
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RE: MWiF & WiTP-AE, Can the Two Worlds Co-Exist?

Post by bradfordkay »

I think it more of a case where Bullwinkle was explaining why he prefers AE, not that he was tearing MWiF down in order to make AE look good.
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RE: MWiF & WiTP-AE, Can the Two Worlds Co-Exist?

Post by BradK82 »

I don't want to get into it with the moose which is why I changed my above post to a legitimate question I have. I just thought his comments about Steve and his health were a little, well snarky. Do I wish Matrix Games would pony up and get him some help completing the game MATRIX promised at the price MATRIX decided to charge-- yes I do. Then implement the AI so many AIs have begged for incessantly. However apparently they have made a calculation that it is not conducive to their bottom line. They would rather waste their time posting about the morality of wargaming.

This is hardly Steve's fault.

P.S. I am tired of hearing about the post count of this forum. It is this post by me along with the above referred to bs along with "what book have you read lately" which contribute to the overly inflated post count of this forum.
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RE: MWiF & WiTP-AE, Can the Two Worlds Co-Exist?

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

Below are the relevant parts that I posted and response I've gotten so far in "another thread". Not to hijack that other thread (which by the way just got locked but not because of me!), I decided to start my own. I'm interested in what others may think about the potential to learn and play both MWiF and WiTP-AE at an "adequately fun level".

MWiF = Matrix's World in Flames.
ORIGINAL: rkr1958
I've got a birthday coming up this month and was thinking about getting WiTP-AE as a present for myself.

How would you compare this game's learning curve and ability to play competently to that of MWiF?

Can you be an avid player of both MWiF and WiTP-AE and still have a life? That is, function "adequately" with family, friends and at work?
ORIGINAL: warspite1
They are both complex games, they both need time to understand let alone master. From an intellectual point of view, if you can understand MWIF then you can certainly get to grips with WITP-AE.

So learning curve is not an 'issue'. More importantly these two are very, very different games and so its not just a question of the learning curve, its what you want from a game and what you find fun.

FWIW I would say (and of course this depends how much spare time you can devote) if you were to set out to learn WITP-AE then you would need to give MWIF a miss for a good while in order to really get under the hood of this game.

That said there are the smaller scenarios. These will give you a feel for what WITP-AE is about and how it plays in a managed way before taking the plunge.

Personally I do not regret buying WITP-AE - and I still hope to come back to it when I retire.

warspite1

Well the OP specifically asked if the two games can co-exist and is there the potential to learn and play both MWiF and WITP-AE at an "adequately fun level".

I guess one can only answer that if they have played both and so understand how much time it takes to play even a (typical) individual impulse in MWIF and how much time it takes to do a (typical) WITP-AE turn.

Given what I know – and as said previously it does not extend to the Campaign game in WITP-AE – I think you would either need to be retired and/or one of those people with an exceptionally fine-honed photographic mind to be able to run two games (one each) simultaneously. But maybe that’s just me as I can’t remember what I did 5 minutes ago any more….
As the OP knows with MWIF – and as everyone knows here with WITP-AE – there is so much to remember (and that’s just rules) before you even get to strategy and reaction to what the enemy is doing and what you yourself want to do! Two BIG games that need a lot of time to understand, and considerably more to master.

I think someone playing MWIF already will find it easier to try WITP-AE than the other way around for the following reason:

As has been noted earlier, the fact that WITP-AE is a complete game (bugs very rare, to non-existent?) has a fully functioning AI, and has lots of forum support, will definitely help you on your quest (if you decide to undertake it). Whereas anyone starting out on MWIF and, particularly if they haven’t played the board game, probably needs more external help to sort the play from the bugs (although contrary to some reports there is a solid group of diehards on that forum willing to help). You haven’t got the AI with MWIF of course but this is less important for some than for others - MWIF works well solitaire and there is also the PBEM option (and I know the OP has started one) . The most frustrating thing for newcomers to MWIF (that newcomers to WITP-AE won’t have) is that the game still has frustrating bugs that crop up from time to time and an element of work around is needed.

Can these games co-exist? These are both very big games – but completely different in terms of subject and mechanics – for a mere mortal like me, one big game at a time is all I can handle……
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: MWiF & WiTP-AE, Can the Two Worlds Co-Exist?

Post by Canoerebel »

ORIGINAL: BradK82

....

P.S. I am tired of hearing about the post count of this forum. It is this post by me along with the above referred to bs along with "what book have you read lately" which contribute to the overly inflated post count of this forum.

[&:]
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RE: MWiF & WiTP-AE, Can the Two Worlds Co-Exist?

Post by BradK82 »

I really do not want to argumentative. Could someone just answer before I plunk down 80$. Can you play WITPAE hotseat on the same computer? Is there enough randomness to make this entertaining as solo play?
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RE: MWiF & WiTP-AE, Can the Two Worlds Co-Exist?

Post by btd64 »

Yes. The game has a hot seat mode. I tried playing hot seat once. It can be done with 2 people in the same room, but if you want to play solo, well I found it tough to do. My 2 cents....GP
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RE: MWiF & WiTP-AE, Can the Two Worlds Co-Exist?

Post by btd64 »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
ORIGINAL: BradK82

....

P.S. I am tired of hearing about the post count of this forum. It is this post by me along with the above referred to bs along with "what book have you read lately" which contribute to the overly inflated post count of this forum.

[&:]

One thing about post count, It shows how alive this forum is weather the subject is at sea replenishment or what book have you read....GP
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RE: MWiF & WiTP-AE, Can the Two Worlds Co-Exist?

Post by Canoerebel »

I'm not aware of a "what book have you read" thread.
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RE: MWiF & WiTP-AE, Can the Two Worlds Co-Exist?

Post by BradK82 »

Thanks GP even though it discourages from the game I appreciate your frankness.
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RE: MWiF & WiTP-AE, Can the Two Worlds Co-Exist?

Post by BradK82 »

Are you really kidding me? You have not noticed the amount of OT post in this forum. I don't care about the name of the actual thread. Keep it real.
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RE: MWiF & WiTP-AE, Can the Two Worlds Co-Exist?

Post by BradK82 »

Don't you mean whether.
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