Better late than never (Lowpe (J) vs tiemanj (A))

[tiemanjw]

Submarine Tactics

I've been doing a lot of analysis lately, and I'll start sharing some of the results as I get the chance. A while back, I did a study on successful (and not so successful) sub attacks to try to trick out what helps and what hurts. One thing I found was that high naval skill, low aggression skippers tended to do better in shallow water. Maybe they don't attack as much, but when they do, they are less likely to get wacked. So I took about half a dozen boats, replaced their skippers and sent them into the shallows of the western South China Sea. And they ran smack into a bunch of DDs escorting CAs. Doh! So an extension to this rule is necessary. Don't fight DDs (at least not without working torpedos). That said, none were lost (except 1 that I left on "direct" routing who stumbled into the minefield at Singapore), and 2 managed to sink a few large xAKs in the Straights of Malacca. So not really a success, but not a total failure. Now that I have working fish (or will by the time they arrive), I've sent another wolfpack to the southern Malacca Straights to see what they could scare up.

A second observation during my original study was that the lower the DL on the sub was prior to the attack, the more likely he was to attack a juicer target (and not an escort). Depressingly, one thing I can't study is the effect of DL on the target TF in terms of getting better attacks and better results. However, I have adjust my sub deployments, and I would like to think I am getting good results.
What I noticed in the Akagi attack was that successful was not the first attack on the TF of the night. Morton, in the Scamp (?) attacked the same TF at least once, and possibly twice (hard to tell, he just attacked escorts - but in 1 attack I saw the same DD that later counterattacked Rasher). Only after these attacks was Rasher able to get one home on Akagi. The same dynamic was at work in the Shokaku attack. I don't remember the subs names, but some attacked first, then someone else found pay dirt.
And finally, in the Kaga attack, first Hake strikes at the escorts, followed by S-35.

While I can't directly measure it, it seems even more important than DL on your sub (both the Akagi and Kaga attacks happened with subs with a high DL under enemy aircover), is DL on the enemy TF (profound, I know[:)]). What I think is happening is that the first sub (and possibly more, as each of these attacks took place where there were more subs in the area that did not attack) raises the DL of the enemy TF. With a high DL another sub is able to get in a good spread. Even with crap torpedos, this good spread (4-6 well aimed shots) is consistently scoring 3-4 hits... and odds are 1 will go boom.

As a result (actually, I started after the make a point of it after the Shokaku attack), I've been deploying my subs in wolfpacks - or multiple subs in interlocking patrol zones (one sub per TF). Patrols are usually in a slash pattern across an expected shipping route (or if I have a lot of subs or very good suspicion of his path, I'll just place multiple subs along that path). The slash for the next boat is right over / under the last boat. I'll continue to use this tactic in the coming months, and see how well it pans out.

[BBfanboy]

Congrats! You correctly guessed his destination and set the trap - good moves! You da man!

Two torp hits on an enemy CV is always good news, but the Mark 10 has a lot less boom than the Mark 13 (when it works). It seems to me that the reports of damage are relative to the size of the weapon and the size of the target. So "severe damage" from a Mark 10 hitting a destroyer would cause a lot more flotation and system (and maybe some engineering) damage than the same hit on a large ship like a CV.

Kaga's battlecruiser armour also seems to reduce the damage effect of hits, even when penetrated. So my estimation is that Kaga has a total of maybe 15-20 flotation damage and 10-15 engineering damage from the two hits.

Now get some Dutch subs in there to plant the coup de grace on her!

[tiemanjw]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Congrats! You correctly guessed his destination and set the trap - good moves! You da man!

Two torp hits on an enemy CV is always good news, but the Mark 10 has a lot less boom than the Mark 13 (when it works). It seems to me that the reports of damage are relative to the size of the weapon and the size of the target. So "severe damage" from a Mark 10 hitting a destroyer would cause a lot more flotation and system (and maybe some engineering) damage than the same hit on a large ship like a CV.

Kaga's battlecruiser armour also seems to reduce the damage effect of hits, even when penetrated. So my estimation is that Kaga has a total of maybe 15-20 flotation damage and 10-15 engineering damage from the two hits.

Now get some Dutch subs in there to plant the coup de grace on her!

thanks BBfanboy. That is about what I expected for damage. Not a hard kill, but what should be a solid mission kill. Plus that battlecruiser armor should mean it takes longer in the yards. I'm guessing (hoping) a month transit to / from the home islands with 2-3(?) months in the yards. Assuming I she gets past the subs taking position between Truk and Saipan.

[tiemanjw]

8/30/1943

A very interesting 2 turns. Of course the headliner is CDR Williams planting 2 into the Kaga, but the day included much more.

All of a sudden, it is a very busy day for submarines. First Taylor kicks the snot out of I-172 with 7 hits, 3 penetrating ("Massive explosion" reported). Then Trout, Hake, and S-35 converge on the KB.
Around Sabang, O21 and Saury play games with his [suspected] ASW TF there. This area is getting a bit hot, so I think I wore out my welcome. Finally, in an engagement I'd rather forget, YMS-138 attacks a sub stuck on the surface. The sub is sunk, but so were the two liberty ships the YMS was escorting.


Burma

In Burma, I have been bombing Taung Gyi every day in order to halt fort building, suck supply, and train bomber crews. Typically, there is medium to heavy flak over the target, which has forced me to higher altitudes. However, the last 2 days, there has been no flak visible in the animation. Is he suffering supply shortages severe enough to drain his units there, or has he moved out all flak to prevent supply loss? Ground bombing is hitting the 21st division which I would think would have some organic AA. Since I have a large force present in the hex I ordered a bombardment to try to hit his supplies more. Initial results had me losing 20 guns to 6 of his vehicles. I'm not really sure what this means. I'll keep up the bombardment for a little while... I can sustain these losses for a bit. He has plenty of arty units present that wouldn't be firing at aircraft, so I could just be using up their organic supplies.
For what it’s worth, the flak in the animations against Toungoo has slacked off considerably in recent days as well. I suppose it is possible he is reading the recent forum topic about AA and supply and has "shut off" AA units (reserve or rest op mode?).

In the air, my ordered strike on Ayuthia (just north of Bangkok) failed to fly the first day, but went off on the second. Here I paid back the debt from when he got me at Taung Gyi. 50 jugs sweep first bagging about 40 Tojo’s and half a dozen Oscars for a cost of 7 (including ops losses and write offs). Bombers pound the airfield into dust and report another 16 Tojo’s destroyed on the ground, plus causing who knows how many ops losses as damaged planes with exhausted pilots try to land afterwards. I'll give him a day to draw in replacements and rest my pilots, and go again. In the meantime, radio intel betrayed activity at Udon Thani. A recon flight just confirmed about 2 dozen fighters and recon aircraft operating out of there. B25s and P38s will hit it today (hopefully).
Finally, A20s from Port Blair fly on a lone APD at Car Nicobar and score 2 hits. I'm not sure what this means. My guess is a small supply run (a lone PB was spotted at Trinkat as well).


CENTPAC

The rest of the KB escaped the subs. I think he went full speed and dropped anchor in Saipan. Kaga may have split off and went to Truk - I spotted a TF there and all of a sudden the sun was blotted out by Vals around there. My recon, has failed to fly for 3 or 4 straight days now, so for the first time in forever, I have 0 DL on Truk.

Betty's fly against something at Ontong Java - possibly Burke's DDs milling around there - but are slaughtered by Kiwis before they could even get close.

My CVs are operating south of Nauru. A sub appeared nearby and I now have a DL on one of the CV TFs. Damn Glens.


So now I have decisions to make. My original plan was a CV strike on Rabaul and Kavieng, supported by air from Ontong Java followed by a strike on Truk. But now, with Kaga possibly at Truk (and probably mission killed), perhaps I have an opportunity.
I could hit Rabaul / Kavieng, in what should be a low risk strike. Upside is possibly as many as 200 A/C could be killed (100 fighters / 40 bombers at Rabaul - variable numbers at Kavieng). There are few bombers to strike back. Truk, on the other hand, has about 100 fighters and 100 bombers, is further away, and out of range of LBA. But Kaga may be there. If she is, finishing her off would be a big win. I may be able to draw some of his defenses off with a faint by Lange's cruisers to the east, and I know several of the bombers are on ASW patrols. But it is still riskier.
And finally, there is Saipan. It would be tricky, but I think I can get up unseen past Bikini and Eniwetok (currently no A/C there). If the KB is there, a successful strike would be a game changer. The 2 biggest problems with this though are 1) I have no recon in range of the area (so I don't know how many A/C or what types he has) and 2) it is deep behind his lines. I would need enough gas to rush in and rush out without refueling beforehand.

[BBfanboy]

I suspect the reason your recon will not fly to Truk is that Kaga's fighter group (and probably the bombers too) has been transferred to the base. The Squadron commanders often seem to know more about the threat at a target base than the high command does!

I don't know what kind of numbers of fighters you can bring, but if you can handle Kaga's fighters plus some lesser skilled LBA, going for Kaga seems the most likely to give success without huge risk.

IMO Saipan is crazy risky - KB could sortie the same day you arrive and fight you with the help or LBA. Then there is the risk of SCTFs and subs.

Rabaul = doable, but is it strategically significant enough to use your strategic assets (CVs/CVLs) to hit?

[tiemanjw]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I suspect the reason your recon will not fly to Truk is that Kaga's fighter group (and probably the bombers too) has been transferred to the base. The Squadron commanders often seem to know more about the threat at a target base than the high command does!

I don't know what kind of numbers of fighters you can bring, but if you can handle Kaga's fighters plus some lesser skilled LBA, going for Kaga seems the most likely to give success without huge risk.

IMO Saipan is crazy risky - KB could sortie the same day you arrive and fight you with the help or LBA. Then there is the risk of SCTFs and subs.

Rabaul = doable, but is it strategically significant enough to use your strategic assets (CVs/CVLs) to hit?

It's probably because I fly them every day for months, and now they only have 1 undamaged airframe left. No real problem, I just tasked a few other groups in the area to cover for them while they repair. Just got the turn back and it looks like the bombers are boosted by about 50 (for 150 total now), but fighters are still around 100 (DL 9/14). And an extra ship in port (shows 4, all AKEs - but it has ALWAYS shown nothing but AKEs even last time I attacked and hit two BBs).

My CV forces are split into 2 TFs:
TF 334 (Sherman)
Essex - 54 VF, 27 VB, 18 VT
Hornet - 36 VF, 36 VB, 18 VT, 8 VT night search
Wasp - 48 VF, 36 VB
Belleau Wood - 36 VF
Princeton - 18 VF, 18 VT
Washington, South Dakota, 2 CA, 5 CL, 1 CLAA, 10 DD

TF 482 (Mitscher)
Enterprise II - 54 VF, 27 VB, 18 VT
Lexington II - 54 VF, 27 VB, 18 VT
Yorktown - 36 VF, 36 VB, 18 VT, 8 VT night search
Victorious - 18 VF, 13 VT
Independence - 36 VF
North Carolina, Massachusetts, 2 CA, 3 CL, 1 CLAA, 12 DD

Total of 390 VF, 192 VB, 108 VT (plus 16 on night search)

I have 260 of the VF held back for CAP, leaving 130 for offensive operations


Both the Rabaul and Truk options face roughly the same estimated opposition and have roughly the same payoff. The advantage of Truk is that Kaga MAY be there. For Rabaul, its that once his fighters are significantly degraded, I can keep the pressure up with long range LBA.

A little new info - I moved subs about halfway between Saipan and Truk, and a group of them have 10/10 DLs. Rough guess, but given the pattern of DLs, it looks like the source would be 7-8 hexes out of Saipan in line with a route to/from Truk. If he just gassed up and turned right around from Saipan (or hasn't arrived yet) he could be here. Or it could be Kaga limping home. Bottom line, there could be a bit more risk to Truk... or as I prefer to see it, a possible opportunity.

I agree Saipan is a bit crazy unless / until I can get some more recon in the area.
All that said, right now my number 1 priority is finding and killing the KB. It is the only asset he has that can prevent me from doing whatever I want, and he is down 2-3 big CVs temporally. I'm trying to figure out how to hit him as soon as practical.

[BBfanboy]

I think there is a coordination penalty in 1943 for having too many CV/CVL in one TF. Most players also try to keep the total number of ships in an Air Combat TF to 15 or less - makes for fewer collisions and better agility when under attack. I would make a third TF to relieve the overcrowding.

[tiemanjw]

9/5/1943

CENTPAC

The sky’s heat up over CENTPAC as a CV raid hits Truk along with land based raids on Kavieng.
The Truk raid was a modest success... I think. Dang sync bug got me again. In the replay, I launched 2 sweeps at range 7 that scored good kill ratios on the defending fighters - but no bombing raid was launched. What really happened, as far as I can gather from the combat report and tracker, my CVs sped up to range 4 (as ordered), and launched a (nearly) all-out blitz on the airfield- 210 bombers escorted by nearly 120 fighters (followed of course, by a sweep). A halfhearted Betty raid approached the TF, but never got close (none seen on the replay). Best guess is about 30 - 40 fighters and about 20 or so bombers destroyed in the air and on the ground.
For day 2, my CVs moved up north of Truk to cut off any retreat (and hopefully jump the KB if he came out to play). More sweeps and raids got another 25 fighters, a handful of bombers 3 ACMs and a SS. Lexington launches a full deckload strike on a TF, which must have been reported by scouts to be a cruiser and 2 destroyers (it was a CM and 2 sub chasers). First up a small group of helldivers scores 4 bomb hits on the CM. A handful of Avengers come next, score multiple torpedo hits and leave nothing left but driftwood for anyone else to fire at. A second TF is just out of range (7 hexes) to the west - but it is just reported as a PB.
All told, after 2 days there is a lot of burning metal, but nothing that is really a big deal. Kaga is nowhere to be found. Sub recon of Saipan and Guam shows the area to be lightly defended by LBA, but not too much in the way of juicy targets either. Perhaps the KB just passed through. At any rate, it is time to retire the CVs as they have to gas up before supporting bigger and better things.

At Kavieng, B24s raid along with P38 sweeps. I only have one group of P38s that can reach all the way to Kavieng, so they go on sweep. The B24s are sent in a high altitude as protection. Both days the sweeps come in after the bombers. The bombers hit nothing of relevance and lose a few on day 2. The P38 sweeps are moderately successful, going about 3:1 against Oscars.

Burma

Recon spots half a dozen ships at Haiphong. P38s from Lashio launch out to sweep the few fighters in the area followed by B24s hitting the port. A DD is heavily damaged and probably sunk, along with a few merchants.

Taung Gyi, I'm starting to think, is in serious supply trouble. After another week of air bombardment, AA fire picked up for 2-3 days, but has now stopped again. Bombardment on the ground is starting to show results.
So I have a dilemma. My original plan was to gather up 4 divisions, and thrust south at Toungoo (estimated a reinforced division to 2 divisions are there). This would all be in place around the end of the month. Alternatively, I could hit Taung Gyi with 3 divisions in a week, or 4 in 2. This could shatter his forces there (1 division plus 3 broken armor regiments and a bunch of support and guns), and trap his forces to the east (an RTA division, possibly the 33rd division and a few other units). It would also open up the back door to central Thailand. A thrust down this road would force him out of Burma or risk getting cut off.
Thoughts?




BBFanboy: I thought about that, but remembered (incorrectly) that in 1943, any allied TF over 150 A/C would be penalized. Turns out it is 150 + (random number between 0 and 150). So a sliding scale up to 300 A/C total. The penalty (if in effect) is a 2x chance of "uncoordination", whatever that is. It is probably worth splitting into 3 once I get back to port - so I can assign a solid leader to the 3rd TF - but not urgent. For what it is worth, my Truk strikes went in as a full package, as did most of my CV vs CV strikes I was play testing a few days back with identical TF makeup. I did have some issues with all my CAP flying, but that was easy to get around by using 100% CAP. I'll dive more into the test results if anyone is interested.

[BBfanboy]

Thanks for detailing the air strike coordination figures. I was not aware of the +150 random addition to the strike - average of +75 would still mean most strikes are coordinated.

[tiemanjw]

******************************************************************************************
9/10/1943
Operations Black Mamba and Hummingbird
The Burma Plan

Originally not set to kick off until the second half of September (when the last unit would be at its kick off position), the time table is
being advanced because aerial recon detected a retreat from Taung Gyi.

Hummingbird is an aggressive plan to put all of Malaya in bomber range as well as develop bases for a later assault on northern Sumatra. The overall plan is to seize the Andaman Islands - specifically Trinkat and Great Nicobar. Car Nicobar may be sized as well, depending on how the first phase goes. Because I don't have any CVs in the area, and his LBA can land a devastating blow on any surface forces, phase 1 is an airborne and submarine operation.

The plan is simple: jump on Trinkat to seize its size 6 airfield, land a small USMC force on Great Nicobar along with some engineers to start construction of an airfield.
Trinkat has 4 units spotted on it. Expected resistance is:
84th JAAF AF Bn
5th JAAF Coy
34th Road Const Coy
and an element of the 41st Infantry Rgt (the bulk of which is at Sabang)

The assault will consist of the 111th Chindit Bde and 50th Indian Para Bde. Total AV of 236. The US 503rd PIR is in reserve. If the assault is successful, the US 140th Base Force, USN 44th CB, USN 35th CB and VII Fighter Command will be airlifted to the base to provide support and engineering functions. All forces are currently at Port Blair, having been slowly airlifted there over the past few weeks. 300 transport A/C have been assembled to fly the troops into battle.

Great Nicobar is suspected to be unoccupied. Assuming one final recon flight confirms this, elements of the 3rd USMC Raider Bn will land by submarine. Engineers from the 821st EAB will land the following day and start AF construction. Once a size 1 AF can be built. Follow on forces will be flown in from Prome (through Port Blair).

B24s and P38s will support the initial assault from Port Blair and Rangoon. The USMC will fly in follow on air, including SBDs, TBFs, and all kinds of F4s.

This is set to kick off at the same time as Operation Black Mamba (assault through the Burma jungle) - originally planned for Sept 19... but due to the advancing of that schedule, D-Day is now Sept 11.


Black Mamba

Black Mamba a thrust through the Burma jungle. The overall objective is to open the road between Taung Gyi and central Thailand in order to cut off his army in Burma, or (more likely) force him to withdraw to prevent it. The plan consists of 3 separate thrusts.
1) a thrust into Taung Gyi with the bulk of my forces
2) a thrust east out of Prome, combined with
3) a thrust south out of Magwe in order to open the good road between Prome and Magwe

(1) is by far the biggest, and most important part of this operation. In its opening phase, I hope to smash the 21st Division (along with 3 broken tank regiments) at Taung Gyi, push east and hopefully trap the 33rd Division and 2nd RTA division holding his right flank. (The bulk of the 41st Inf Rgt is at the road junction between these 2 forces).

Blue forces for the assault include:
Initial assault on Taung Gyi
2 US Division (supported by a Tank Bn) - with a 3rd US division in reserve
3 Indian Armor Bdes and a motorized infantry Bde
Misc. Commonwealth Armor and support engineers.

Follow-up Assault on the Japanese right flank
The US 41st ID along with the 29th British Bde are currently holding the flank. These forces will join the assault once forces break through at Taung Gyi.

After smashing Japanese forces, the bulk of these units will fight their way down the jungle road to cut off, then take Chiang Mai. Chiang Mai will be build up as a supply base close to the front for an assault into central Thailand. If he is slow in pulling out his forces, then the assault on the trio of airbases in central Thailand will quickly follow, however, historically Lowpe has been good about not getting cut off.


At the same time this attack starts, A US division reinforced by a Tank Bn and a British Bde will move east from Prome to pin down his units there (2 Bdes from the 1st Division expected). 2 Divisions from the Chinese 6 Corps (one of the big ones - nearly full strength, but unseasoned) will move south from Magwe, along with the 11th East African Div and an Indian tank regiment. Expected resistance is a Bde from the 14th Div. Here they will crush the Bde, and continue south to assist in the drive out of Prome.

[tiemanjw]

9/15/1943

Hummingbird and Black Mamba have both kicked off, as well as Operation Kirkland (a CENTPAC offensive I'll detail in a later post). In this post I'll detail the first few days. Afterwards, I'll try to give a quick update every day or two - try being the operative word. Things are happening fast now.


Black Mamba-
The plan, rushed a bit due to a detected withdraw from Taung Gyi, has gotten off to a good start. The original idea was to hit 3 places at once with all forces assembled (east of Prome, south of Magwe, and Taung Gyi). However, due to the accelerated time line, the Taung Gyi forces hit first with the Prome and Magwe forces arriving 2 days later.

Battle of Taung Gyi:
All forces (except the 255th Armor) arrived in Taung Gyi and began the [deliberate] assault on 9/12 with the armor brigades held in reserve. This first phase was close to even, with him getting a slight edge due to forts and terrain. However, suspicions of supply troubles are confirmed with the "supply(-)" modifier showing up in the combat report. Despite the causalities, I figure he is probably worse for the wear due to supply troubles and sitting at a small base for months in a malaria zone. The second day's deliberate assault pours in the reserves and proves good as his adjusted assault is down to about 1/3 of what is was on day one. My casualties drop to less than half and things are looking good.

On the third day, the freshly arrived 37th ID is put into the fight and all units are ordered into an all-out assault to overrun him and drive him out [shock attack]. The attack breaks his lines and forces him into a headlong retreat... due west - to that open ground hex south of Meiktila. Massive casualties on his part - especially in guns and vehicles. With his forces out of the way, most ground forces are sent full speed to the east in a race to cut off his 33rd Division - now retreating south.

As to his forces retreating into the open - I ordered every British and 2E bomber I had to hit them. Low. On top of this, various model P40s and USMC Wildcats are ordered to strafe (figuring his losses in guns during the retreat makes this safe enough to attempt). All combined over 600 casualties along with over 60 each guns and vehicles are reported destroyed and disabled. The 255th Armor, just finishing unpacking in Meiktila, is ordered to pursue. I'll try to maximize casualties before he reaches the safety of the jungle.

The Battle of Prome:
The 32nd ID, supported by the Indian 44th Bde and the 194th Tank Bn arrive in good order to the battlefield east of Prome. Deliberate assaults begin on 9/14. Enemy opposition is as expected - 2 Bdes of the 1st Division. Despite him having a slight edge in adjusted AV, his causalities are 5x mine. This attack is nothing more than to hold him in place until the Chinese and Africans can come down from the north and link up, so no complaints here.

Just to the north, 1 Division of the Chinese 6th Corps supported by Gardner's Horse Regiment is scoring a 2:1 kill ratio against a Bde of the 14th Division. A second Chinese division and the East Africans arrive today, and the pressure will be stepped up.


Hummingbird-
Hummingbird, so far, is not going as well. It kicked off a day earlier then Black Mamba. On 9/11 the 111th Chindit and 50th Indian Para landed. Causalities on day 1 were light, but disruption was high, and little headway could be made. Reinforcements were brought in on the 12th, but naval bombardments kept disruption high (and no attack was attempted). On the 13th the 503rd was committed and suffered high causalities in the forced shock attack. In response, he is trying to fly in reinforcements (2nd Sasebo SNFL Coy). As it stands now, I think the issue is in doubt for both sides. He seems to be getting weaker slowly, and I am slowly getting stronger. My troops now have full supplies and have recovered most of their disruption. I was able to deliberate attack this last turn, and caused significant casualties on his part.

While the centerpiece of Hummingbird struggles to gain steam, the supporting efforts have been successful. Great Nicobar was taken without a shot. I hope to land engineers by submarine there in the next day or 2 to start building an airfield. Further, while he has done a few BB bombardments of my troops on Trinkat, they have been largely ineffectual. Further, he doesn't seem to be able to sustain it... Both big boys, Yamato and Musashi (first I've seen Musashi in the war) bombarded on the 12th, but haven't been seen since. I think he needs to go all the way back to Singapore to reload. My arch nemesis, Fuso, stopped by for a visit on the 14th, but caused little damage or disruption.

In the air, he is reduced to night raids on Port Blair. Fighter sweeps by Corsairs and P38s have mostly gone my way. He executed a successful day raid on Port Blair a few days ago, but at the cost of a bunch of Oscars - and the bombers didn't cause much damage despite the AF being over stacked by about 2x. I do need to remain on alert here though - he still has about 300 fighters and 100 bombers in the area, and an attack on a focused point could cause some issues.

The highlight so far though has to be at sea. I've sat and endured the bombardments on my troops at Trinkat. But he wanted to hit the supply base at Port Blair. Searches spot what are reported as 4 BBs standing off 9 hexes out. I suspect a bombardment. I have a pair of DDs at Port Blair, and a large naval squadron (TF 515) of 2 CAs (Hawkins and Suffolk), 4 CLs (Kenya, Newcastle, Honolulu, and Santa Fe) and a bunch of Fletchers standing off out of search range. I roll the dice and send them in. The plan:
Put the 2 DDs (Napier and Quadrant) in single ship TFs and move out in front to act as pickets (raise his DL) and force him to use up some ammo (thanks BBFanBoy) shooting at small targets. TF 515 will then speed in and hopefully intercept him and prevent the bombardment. USMC SBDs and TBFs (along with a squadron of Vengeance) are flown in to Port Blair to hopefully hit him as he withdraws. All the transport planes that can fly (may are damaged) are sent to the mainland to get them out of the way (and lower the AF below the stack threshold to increase the chance the bombers fly).

The Naval Battle of Port Blair (9/14/43):
No plan survives first contact, and this one is no exception. He doesn't have 1 TF of 4 BBs, rather he has 2 TFs - 1 of a CL and a DD, the other is 4 CAs, a CL and 3 DDs. The first engagement of the stormy night is the 1 CL TF coming across DD Quadrant. Quadrant closes to 2000 yards and opens fire. Both sides shoot at each other for a few minutes, but no one scores. Next up, his big forces runs into Napier, and the fun begins. Napier, with 2 years of pent-up anger, decides to go all Sammy B. She drives in to 1000 yards, then proceeds to make CA Furutaka her bi***. She scores a torpedo hit then rakes the superstructure with her 4" guns. She shrugs off small caliber AA fire for a while, but a medium caliber round finally finds her and causes light damage. Out of fish, low on ammo and with a hole in his side, Cdr Clark finally decides to break off - setting the bar high.

Quadrant then makes a second run at the small group. She is not as charmed as Napier though. A few hits are scored on CL Agano, but she takes worse than she gives and retires on fire.

At this point is where things go south. Adm Palliser misjudges, and instead of engaging the big group, he rolls in on this lone CL and DD. CL Agano is beat up and retires on fire with little damage done to the good guys, however the big group gets in and lands a heavy punch on Port Blair. My airframes fare ok (only 6 destroyed on the ground), but with 56 "runway hits", I think I can kiss a USMC counterpunch goodbye.

On the plus side, Palliser recognizes his error, and moves in on the now ammo depleted cruisers. In the ensuing battle CA Myoko is hit bad by a combination of US 6" fire (which has surprisingly good penetrating power) and British 8" fire. Several 6" shells penetrate the hull and a combination of 6" and 8" fire causes "heavy fires" on deck. In addition, DD Eaton gets a fish into DD Nowaki, which blows up and sinks with all hands. However the victory is not as complete as I'd like. The Japanese manage to make good their escape aided by the low visibility offered by the nighttime thunderstorms.

The AM air phase brings what is expected - The Port Blair AF is too damaged to support strikes against his retiring ships. But all hands pitch in to clear the runways, arm and fuel the birds and as the day starts to grow long aircraft are taking off in small groups to visit revenge upon their attackers. Scouts planes from Rangoon report the position of 2 separate groups of enemy ships limping away. First up, CA Furutaka is spotted making for Car Nicobar. 8 SBDs and 3 TBFs arrive overhead. The first group of 4 SBDs then does what marines are paid to do. They go 4 for 4 with 1000 lbrs on the wounded ship leaving her in sinking condition [hopefully]. The TBFs (with bombs, sadly) and remaining 4 SBDs try to hit the maneuverable DD Minegumo without luck.

Next up CL Agano (from the small group) is spotted on fire in the middle of the Andaman Sea. 6 Wildcats sweep aside a handful of Oscars and the 9 TBFs land 2 bombs on the cruiser.

Later, the appropriately named Vengeance get into the fight. The flight of 6 finds the Furutaka, visiting more hate on this luckless boat. 3 more bombs hit to close out her day - and hopefully her war.


A few takeaways from the battle:
Myoko is not seen among the ships limping away... did she sink? None of his ships (except the one DD) was observed to go down, but 3 cruisers were hit hard enough to hopefully sink.

I do find it interesting that he had 6 cruisers escorted by a total of 4 DDs. Am I starting to see a DD shortage? Submarines seem to be hitting a carrier a month in the Pacific (CVE Taiyo was hit a few days ago), and here Napier gets close to the poorly escorted Furutaka without interference. For what it’s worth, tracker lists 62 DDs sunk - but I don't know if that is a lot (or even accurate). Further, Fuso came and bombarded Trinkat - and appears to have been escorted by (among others) 2 E boats - which stepped on some mines left by some careless submarine .

[tiemanjw]

Black Mamba
Battle of Prome continues. The Chinese / East Africans route the 14th/C division and start moving south to link up with the Americans at Prome.

Troops from Taung Gyi are still moving to the road junction to the east. It will take 3 days (I was hoping the tanks could make it in 2) - probably too long to win the race and close the door on the 33rd.

Bombers fail to fly against the routed troops in the open terrain. B25s decide to attack troops at Rahaeng (doh! I was sure I set their target)


Hummingbird
He moves about 150 fighters into Trinkat. F4s on sweep do a good job, but are too few in number. B24s from Bassein are hit hard... especially one unit that came in all alone.
The good news here is that he is moving his fighters into range once again. And Bangkok is down to about 75 fighters (and about 300 bombers and others). I've ordered everything that can reach to sweep / bomb / escort to Bangkok. F4s (which can't reach) have are ordered to sweep Trinkat from Port Blair.
Otherwise both of us try to supply our forces on Trinkat

[tiemanjw]

Black Mamba
Not a good day. 33rd made it to the road junction just as the tanks were pulling in. Refugees from Taung Gyi make the jungle south just before the tanks can attack.

Battle outside Prome ranges on for another day, slowly grinding him down until the Chinese and East Africans can link up in a day or 2. He continues to get better odds, but keeps takes far higher casualties... so I see no reason to let up. His fatigue and disruption has to be at least as high as mine, and my supply is still topped out.

A bombardment in Rangoon finds far less than expected. I have double his AV there and the only full division he has is the 6th RTA. I'll keep bombarding to use up his supply and keep an eye on it. Once I can get a few tanks there, I may start attacking.


Hummingbird - nothing - just moving supply. F4s from Port Blair show a bunch of empty skies who's the boss.


Bangkok
Huge air battle over Bangkok. I think he moved the fighters he jumped over to Trinkat back there. First 2 sweeps (a P38 and a P47) get good kills. Remainder of sweeps don't arrive until it is too late. First 2 groups of bombers arrive while there is still strong CAP. Escorts get them through, but I take much higher losses than I'd like. No matter, they pound the airfield and destroy 83 aircraft on the ground (plus who knows how many fighters that try to land on the beat up runways). The cost is high though:
20 P38s (mostly from the escorts), 12 B25s, 11 F4Fs, and 18 mixed model Wellingtons and a grab bag of others. All told 72 aircraft lost in the air and 18 ops losses Pacific wide with most of the action over Bangkok.

Intel suggests that raid was a success though. He is down to about 65 fighters in Bangkok and about the same in Sabang. And that is about it for the theater. I'll fly what I can at Bangkok again tomorrow, and try to get damaged planes and finish the job.

[tiemanjw]

So, it appears that there are some (most(?)) of you that think that I am being a bit gamey with some of my TF setup. This post should not be taken as a complaint or anything negative, but rather a discussion. I don't want to game the system, but I do want to be open to creative employment within reason. And before going any further, I want to state that Lowpie has been more then generous with his responses and trying to work through this issue.

Specifically, Lowpie is concerned with my use of small (often single ship) PT TFs guarding some bases. There has also been some discussion about the use of 2 single DD TFs in the recent naval battle near Port Blair. Each in turn:

I will confess I have probably gone overboard on the PTs. I have been desperate to slow / stop his bombardments and scattered a bunch of PTs out in front: in part as scouts for bigger TFs that sometimes come in behind them, and sometimes to slow him down enough so that my airpower may take a shot at him during his retreat. As I said, I think I have gone overboard. He proposed a rule where I could have 1 PT TF for small bases (2 for med, 3 for large) with a max of 12 PTs. Since I often want to use my PTs as scouts out in front of the base - which would require more than 1 TF if multiple approaches are considered, I countered with the following rule:

The number of PT boats at a base shall be no more than [12] at size 0 - 3, [24] at 4 - 6, [36] at 7+. and a PT TF shall be no fewer than 2 boats (unless one is sunk or there is only 1 PT based at a port). No more than 1 PT TF / hex for an ocean hex, 2 PT TF / hex for a base hex.

I would be open to the numbers changing.
With this rule, it would prevent him from seeing more than 2 PT TFs on a run in (re-reading it now, I guess it would be 3... I had intended the 2 TFs allowed at a base to be for larger bases only), and it would allow me to position my PTs in front of my base (or other TFs) so that they could encounter the bad guys first and raise the DL allowing a larger group behind it to react (and get a bit of a DL bonus early in the combat). I think this read a bit complicated, as he replied back just no single ship PTs (unless one is sunk).
At any rate, I'll follow within the proposed rule - but would like to hear thoughts.


With respect to splitting the destroyers at Port Blair, here is my response (and reasoning):

For the DDs, I had 2 escorting a supply TF that was standing out of range. I split the DDs (leaving the transports naked) and sent them to Port Blair prior to sending them the next turn down to Trinkat to intercept that AMc. That is when I saw "4 BBs" standing off at a range that I assumed meant a bombardment the next turn. So, rather than run down to Trinkat, I spilt the 2 DDs into single ship TFs and put them on patrol 1 hex outside Port Blair (2 separate hexes, as I didn't know which one you would approach through). I don't remember the react range I set. At the same time, the large SAG was standing off north of Port Blair. I set them to race in to try to intercept your expected bombardment. I had no PTs in Port Blair at this time.

The reason I split the DDs was so I could cover multiple approaches with the few ships I had. I never have enough DDs to do everything I want with them, and in this case, I needed to cover 2 approaches with the limited assets. Personally, I'd prefer to have half a dozen split between the 2 hexes... and usually I keep my DDs in groups of 3+. But here, I had 2 old Commonwealth DDs. I played the hand I was dealt.

The reason I moved them out in front was so that you would hit them first, and the DL of your SAG would be raised increasing the chance of intercept by the large SAG (and giving me a leg up at the start of it). As it turned out, the 2 individual DD TFs each intercepted a different TF (probably because they were covering 2 separate approaches).

I have attached is small picture of my layout last turn for defending Port Blair (I did fuse the multiple single ship PTs into groups prior to this picture). Most of my island defenses are similar, though Port Blair has it taken up a notch due to the threat. In this, I was defending against an expected bombardment from the mass of boats at Trinkat. To the south are a pair of PT pickets, to raise the DL of anything approaching. North of that is a pair of DDs (1 ship TFs, 2 different hexes - it is all I have this turn. The group you see to the NW just arrived there this turn). I have no large SAG racing to the rescue this day, so I placed them (the DDs) there in an attempt to build off the success of Napier, and maybe get another fish hit that the Marine SBDs can clean up. Again, split up because I only have 2 DDs there, and multiple approaches that you can come by - and I distrust the react range as I've been burnt by it may times.

I am shocked about your statement of the ineffectiveness of bombardments. I have been pulling my hair out trying to figure out a way to slow them down. The have been extremely painful on my end. I've tried PTs (useless), mines (these have been modestly successful), night air strikes (never fly), subs (can't hit anything moving fast) - and still they get in and out before my airpower can cause some damage. I'm also surprised you mention losses. I'll have to go back and look (as I'm curious now), but I only remember felling I got the better of the deal twice now. The Port Blair attack a few days ago, and once in the Gilberts where a CA hit a mine (and I think was caught by air power afterwards, but I don't remember). Even on this last one, the bulk of your forces got out (I think). The one CA (that began with an "M" was hit hard by my cruisers and I think sunk shortly afterwards. The CA that began with "F" was hit by a fish and didn't show up to the bombardment. My guess is it split off after the Napier attack, and was slowed by flooding / engine damage when the SBDs caught up with it. The other CL was hit hard in a surface action as well, and was probably too damaged to make a clean getaway. I saw no sign of the largely undamaged CAs from the big group, and assumed they made it safely out of range despite the multiple surface actions.

So I am curious if this is still foul play? And if so, what can be done about it? I worry that enforcing a X# of ship size TF would bring up at least as many issues as it solves such as if I have 1 DD escorting some transports and want to split it off, can I not do that any more? Even for transiting?

[DanSez]

Simple suggestion:
Any task force (excluding submarines) that are not traveling between friendly ports should be at least 3 ships. Easy to remember.

I can't fairly comment about the gamey-ness as I am invested in the other camp.
Just about everyone has some favorite flavor of 'cheese'.

Good luck working out your differences.

[witpqs]

I haven't followed all the nitty gritty details, so this response is just for what it's worth, really just comments about my own style.

I have no problem with single ship DD TFs, although a bunch of them I wouldn't really do. I don't think it's terribly useful or very realistic. A couple of them for a specific purpose like you describe - certainly. Also it depends upon resources available, which will vary with both time and place within the game. I certainly want at least 2 or 3 or 4 DD, but I can't always get that. Even when tons of DD are available, 3 is a fine number in a TF for many purposes, including as pickets. It might be better to choose a 2 or 3 DD TF + patrol rather than 2x or 3x single-DD TF.

A brief comment about 'realistic'. I prefer realistic, but the definition of that has to be mingled with the game mechanics and the game realities. So there are certainly things I do in the game that I do not consider gamey but that I would not do in real life (in the unlikely event I was transported to a parallel universe and made Supreme Commander! [:D]). No point in going too far into that, we have many discussions in these forums that have helped to shape each of our opinions on that.

PT boats I sometimes wind up with 1 or 2 or 3 but only incidentally. I prefer groups of at least 6, and a little further into the game (as Allies, that is) when I have more of them and less need I like to use them in groups of 12, but I am not at all fanatical about that point. A single PT boat operating alone seems silly to me, even if (for a contrived example) you only have 3 on the spot and need to cover three hexes - use a patrol. Not enough fuel at the base for them to move around? Too bad, keep them on patrol in the base hex (that would likely be my own decision).

Bombardments are a mixed bag. Many are very effective, many are duds, and many are in-between. Fortifications matter greatly. Other factors, too. Not sure what your opponent is seeing/complaining about (haven't followed all the details). As far as bombardment TF composition goes (to stay on point), for me it varies. I prefer medium sized TF with ~4 shooters. But I've learned that the realities of the various combat and other models working together (air->ground, ground, sea->ground, unit recovery, building, ship rearming, etc) reveal the need for mostly continuous bombardments to overcome many fortified islands/atolls. So, I have taken to having 2 shooters in many bombardment TFs, and 1 in many others. On rare occasions more than say two of them will bombard the same target on the same night, and I would prefer to combine them for the night but the command aspects of the game (buying TF commanders, not being able to hold ones already bought, and so on) make it onerous to do that so in those situations I just use them as is. Also there are some backwaters where single shooter bombardment TFs work nightly also to wear down bypassed positions.

I'll throw in (non-DD only) surface combat TFs. I try to keep them modestly sized rather than large, and pay close attention to 1) maximum ship speed and 2) main armament range, et al. Always want the escorts as fast or faster than the big ships (not 100% possible but usually). Due to '1' and '2' they often contain only 2 to 4 cruisers/larger, sometimes more and sometimes only 1. Varies with game time and place.

Hope this is helpful. Not sure if it's what you were looking for. Copy it to your opponent at will, of course.

[tiemanjw]

ORIGINAL: DanSez


Simple suggestion:
Any task force (excluding submarines) that are not traveling between friendly ports should be at least 3 ships. Easy to remember.

I can't fairly comment about the gamey-ness as I am invested in the other camp.
Just about everyone has some favorite flavor of 'cheese'.

Good luck working out your differences.

Thanks DanSez. It appears from my end things are getting worked out. Lowpie'a tone in his emails certainly suggest that. I hope he isn't stewing about it privately though.

I don't like the hard and fast 3 ship min. I know it is easy to remember, but I think it places an artificial limitation when resources are tight. That said, I am forming up my single ship TFs into at least groups of 2 - and in most cases 3. I did order a pair of DDs to go poke their nose into what looks like a group of transports. I am still fighting on a budget (ship wise) in the Burma theater. I'll also reserve the use of single DD TFs if the in certain conditions, but not as a regular or sustained occurrence.



witpqs

Thanks for the comments. I agree about the DDs, I like to have 3 or 4 (or 6 - 8) in a group - but it is just not always possible.

I don't know what he is seeing with respect to bombardments. I know I've lost more A/C to them than to flak (and I fly low most of the time). And this doesn't include the damaged A/C and lost time from the base. And most of the bases he hits have forts at 5 or 6. So I have been doing anything and everything to stop them.

[obvert]

I do know about the other side a bit so I'll keep my comments to what I think is important in the game.

The game is not reality. You state you want the PTs to operate as scouts, except in game they are not just scouts. In reality they would be pummeled in single boat scouting trips if they ran into anything significant, even a few DDs. Or those TFs would race past them in the open ocean where the PTs don't fare so well in any kind of weather. This could be better modeled in game, but I've found only that system damage goes up while on patrol.

What happens in game is very different. The single PTs eat up LOTS of ammo and just as importantly, ops points. Each one has to be engaged as if it were an entire TF and ships waste fuel and their movement so that after 3-4 engagements there is nothing left for the big boys and they're stranded outside of CAP coverage. There were PTs crawling all over the Solomons, but they didn't exactly stop the Tokyo express from bombarding Guadalcanal nightly.

Certainly you are able to do this but there is a reason virtually no one does. It's just not in accordance with most of the players understanding of what they want here. We play these games for years and want to have a good experience of virtual naval battle. It's kinda cheesy to win because you know your opponent got screwed due to 5 battles with single PTs when you could have had a really good smash-up between cruisers and both had more fun.

We all want to win, but even the developers play with HRs and if they do, well it seems like a good idea if I do too.

The other thing is that you don't really have many limitations on the Allied side. Resources are never tight. If they are you're not playing the real game, which is logistics. You don't need to use these, and you'll have good success with them in 4-6 boat TFs. In fact this range is where I think they're most successful, and it's close to how they were actually used in the war; working in groups.

I also limit them to 2 TFs per base and don't send bunches into the open water to shield my other combat TFs, although I will bring them on ops within their range to go and come back to base and will use them to ambush bigger TFs. Leave them at home base on react and they'll find whatever is coming in.

Single ships are a bit difficult for the engine somehow anyway. I had an opponent playing the Allies sending them into Manila early and they were never seen by the many layers of search planes on the way, or by those at the base two hexes away set to search to the seven hex approach!! I'd only spot them after the started unloading when recon flew over. It's a well known problem, and ships with low DL are less likely to be hit, so it gives an advantage. I'll stick to 2 ship TFs. I don't need those kinds of advantages. If my opponent can beat me while I've got the Allied toys then he deserves to win and I should be proud he let me play the game with him.

[tiemanjw]

Excellent points Obvert - I think what was lost on me was the scooting past part. Makes sense - each hex is 40nm big, and a PT has a horizon of what, about 14nm (assuming it has radar, is looking at a CA sized target and there is no land or odd atmospheric conditions). Most of the time, I guess he should shoot right past without seeing each other, but in the game I guess this doesn't happen.
Plus the not to be ignored point about having fun [:)]

As I said, I've reined in the excessive PTs (some are refusing to merge in a few places though, so it is taking a bit longer than I'd have liked - but these are at bases further back). I think I'll further take your suggestion to limit it to 2 TFs / base, and keep them within 1 hex of land (except for transiting or maybe a quick offensive strike).


I don't necessary agree that I don't have limitations on the allied side. It is about 1/3 of the world and 14 DDs a day away and 2 DDs at the point of action means I have 2 DDs for that day. And also 1942 is rather lean times. I know it is mid - late '43 now and I'm getting richer every day, but it hasn't always been this way. I sunk more CAs (and all the BBs I've sunk) in 1942 then 1943 (according to my intel people), so I've had plenty of action where I can't just bring an ocean of steal.

I did check each of his CAs and BBs lost to see if this has been an issue. I don't think so (at least not in ship sunk - opportunity cost of not bombarding because of the deterrence factor, I can't say). Only 3 times has a lost ship had multiple surface engagements during a turn - 1 was in open ocean and didn't involve any small TFs, 1 was the recent action at Port Blair, and the third hit 1 PT TF (3 boats), an unloading [small] transport TF (1 xAK, 2 AMs), a mine, and in the day phase a small DD TF (2) defending a nearby base reacted and attacked (aircraft finished the job).


At any rate, I think we have worked things out. I'll get back to posting about the game. Plenty of action in the past few days in Burma, CENTPAC and SOPAC.

[witpqs]

I also disagree with the notion that the Allies face no limitations. With respect to PT boats it's true or true enough.