Demo Naval combat

[bo]

I know, I'm at it again, always trying to improve on the demos.

I am attempting to do a naval combat.

The weather is fine in the NT zone, but first I want you to munch on these charts awhile.

Thank the lord Steve has the program fool with these charts and not me. I respect the board game players more and more with the calculations they had to go through.

[bo]

This is the combat chart that decides the outcome of a Naval battle, a Submarine-- ASW battle [anti-submarine warfare] and an air to sea battle. The next three screens will be the rules on how the combat results are figured out on this chart.

Have fun I am still learning, after the charts I will attempt to do a naval battle.

This is what the the WIF board game players faced every game every sea, air, land battle. Well Steve and the computer program solved this for everyone, the chart and rules are there but you dont need them. Maybe!

Bo

PS: Yeah, I just figured out this Naval Combat Results Table at 9:30 EDT Oct 3rd 2013, I am a very slow learner, I know RTFM. [:(]

I checked out all my combat results against the chart and everything was correct and your post paul was a great help.

I also remember a comment some time ago about keeping a tab on how many ships you should send into battle chart wise 3, 5, 8, or 12.l

Bo

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Page 3

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This screen depicts the CW warships that are patrolling the North sea. The next screen depicts the attack factors and the vulnerability factors of the battleship shown.

Actually you will not have to be concerned about the combat chart unless you really want to know what is going on behind the scenes, meaning "play on damn the torpedoes"

Then again you need to know when you decide to attack an emeny fleet what are your attack factors and what the enemys attack factors are. Would be nice to know [;)]

[bo]

Here is where I am a little hazy, yes the Bo is hazy at times. [:(]

I am showing the Japanese battleship the Yamato its attack factors are [11] [very potent]


Board game players help!



When you look at the above picture you can see the attack factors of all the CW warships in the North sea, they total [46 attack factors] The hazy part, what depicts the defence factors of these ships is it the vulnerability? Or are the defence factors even in the naval combat chart or does it matter in combat calculations?

Or is everything based on attack factors?

[bo]

This is the German fleet in the port of Kiel preparing to enter the North sea, only the warships will sortie. Their attack factors are [30] This might be a one sided battle but we shall see later. Remember the die can change your glory to despair quickly in this game.

[bo]

The German fleet has entered the North sea and we are waiting to see if they will be intercepted by the CW fleet. Why is the German fleet going into the North sea? What do they have to gain? What is the purpose of this deadly sortie? [&:]

There is no purpose, nada, nothing, just a demo on naval battles [;)] Just trying to head off the naysayers saying hey Bo I would never send the fleet into the North sea with all those CW ships there.[:(] Bo you better learn some tactics that is a bad move. My answer to that would be. Your right!

[composer99]

ORIGINAL: bo

Here is where I am a little hazy, yes the Bo is hazy at times. [:(]

I am showing the Japanese battleship the Yamato its attack factors are [11] [very potent]


Board game players help!



When you look at the above picture you can see the attack factors of all the CW warships in the North sea, they total [46 attack factors] The hazy part, what depicts the defence factors of these ships is it the vulnerability? Or are the defence factors even in the naval combat chart or does it matter in combat calculations?

Or is everything based on attack factors?

[image snipped for brevity]

Each unit's naval defence score help that unit individually, while attack factors, as you have correctly surmised, are added together to determine damage inflicted.

Basically, whenever you are inflicting damage on enemy ships, you do the following:
1- add up the relevant attack factors (usually naval attack factors for ships, but it could be ASW factors when fighting subs)
2- add up the number of defending units - this is the target profile
3- cross-check the sum of attack factors vs. the target profile on the naval CRT
4- inflict damage in the order specified by the rules for the kind of naval combat you are fighting

(For the above summary, the terms attack/er and defend/er are agnostic with respect to whose impulse it is. Also, the above procedure is followed when using AA fire against bombers, but inflicting damage happens a bit differently.)

Whether the attacker or defender is picking a target to suffer damage (X - sunk, D - damage, A - abort), the following procedure is followed:
- the player picking the target selects the target
- a random number between 1 and 10 is generated and compared to the target's defence score
- if the number is equal to or less than the target's defence score, the target suffers the damage specified
- if the number exceeds the target's defence score, the target suffers one step less damage (so X becomes D, D becomes A, A becomes 1/2 A - a ship suffering 1 of these stays in the fight, a ship suffering 2 becomes aborted)
- it is worth noting that 2 D results equals 1 X result, but a ship can only suffer up to 1 A result, so there is no conversion between A and D results
- finally damaged ships (ships that have taken a D result in a combat) suffer a +1 penalty to their defence scores, so they are easier to inflict further damage on

So, in essence, each ship's naval defence is kind of like its 'saving throw', if you will, against damage. Also, ships with a lower defence score (numerically) have a better defence. (For example, the Yamato's naval defence score is 0, which means it automatically takes less damage the first time it is damaged - but it can still be aborted if it suffers 2 1/2-abort results, or even sunk if it eats two X results, even if they both get converted to D results.)

Does that help?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: bo

The German fleet has entered the North sea and we are waiting to see if they will be intercepted by the CW fleet. Why is the German fleet going into the North sea? What do they have to gain? What is the purpose of this deadly sortie? [&:]

There is no purpose, nada, nothing, just a demo on naval battles [;)] Just trying to head off the naysayers saying hey Bo I would never send the fleet into the North sea with all those CW ships there.[:(] Bo you better learn some tactics that is a bad move. My answer to that would be. Your right!

Right now the German fleet is in the zero section box while the Commonwealth decides whether to intercept them or not.

If the Germans are intercepted and decide to fight through, or if they decide to stop, or if the interception fails and the Germans decide to stop, then the German fleet will be able to choose a section box other than zero. Since a couple of them only have 3 movement points (in orange), the highest available to them will be the 2 section box.

I say all this because the summary unit data panel is presently showing zero bombardment points for the Germans. That will be true if they end up in the zero section, but not true if they end up in a higher section.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: composer99

ORIGINAL: bo

Here is where I am a little hazy, yes the Bo is hazy at times. [:(]

I am showing the Japanese battleship the Yamato its attack factors are [11] [very potent]


Board game players help!



When you look at the above picture you can see the attack factors of all the CW warships in the North sea, they total [46 attack factors] The hazy part, what depicts the defence factors of these ships is it the vulnerability? Or are the defence factors even in the naval combat chart or does it matter in combat calculations?

Or is everything based on attack factors?

[image snipped for brevity]

Each unit's naval defence score help that unit individually, while attack factors, as you have correctly surmised, are added together to determine damage inflicted.

Basically, whenever you are inflicting damage on enemy ships, you do the following:
1- add up the relevant attack factors (usually naval attack factors for ships, but it could be ASW factors when fighting subs)
2- add up the number of defending units - this is the target profile
3- cross-check the sum of attack factors vs. the target profile on the naval CRT
4- inflict damage in the order specified by the rules for the kind of naval combat you are fighting

(For the above summary, the terms attack/er and defend/er are agnostic with respect to whose impulse it is. Also, the above procedure is followed when using AA fire against bombers, but inflicting damage happens a bit differently.)

Whether the attacker or defender is picking a target to suffer damage (X - sunk, D - damage, A - abort), the following procedure is followed:
- the player picking the target selects the target
- a random number between 1 and 10 is generated and compared to the target's defence score
- if the number is equal to or less than the target's defence score, the target suffers the damage specified
- if the number exceeds the target's defence score, the target suffers one step less damage (so X becomes D, D becomes A, A becomes 1/2 A - a ship suffering 1 of these stays in the fight, a ship suffering 2 becomes aborted)

So, in essence, each ship's naval defence is kind of like its 'saving throw', if you will, against damage.

Does that help?

A tremendous help and I really appreciate it but why is it just you and a very few others that comment in all posts by me and others, and you and a few others are so helpfull. I also want to hear other theories or opinions from people who dont post much. As I go on with this battle [composser99] I will need some more of your expertise when the calculations start.

Bo

[bo]

The CW naval unit the CA Newcastle has become disorganized by choice, a player who has to disorganize one of their ships would naturally pick the one with the lowest attack factor, there were several to pick from but the program had picked this one first and it was okay with me but I could pick any other ship if I so chose.

Hazy again [&:] why? The people who drew up these rules had a reason for this and as you have found out with me I like to know the reason why and how it might relate to actual combat.

Bo

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

You have to flip/disorganize a unit in the seabox to do a search.

A unit being face down has no impact on its combat abilities, it still fights just as hard as a unit face up/organized. The biggest impact is that a disorganized ship has to return to base, whereas a face up one can stay in the sea zone at the end of turn, and go down a box.


Strategy wise, I'll start by flipping the guys I plan on sending back home at the end of the turn anyway, not necessarily the strongest or weakest ship.


EDIT: Oh, and if you're playing with them, flip the CL first. They take less oil to reorg.

[composer99]

As far as I am aware, disorganized naval units can stay at sea at the end of the turn. Applicable text from §13.4:

A unit must return to base during this step if it is:
- any unit (except convoy points) of a neutral major power; or
- a TRS with a cargo on board; or
- any unit (except convoy points) in the 0 section.

Any other of your units can return to base if you like.

Disorganized naval units can't do a number of things organized ones can, such as initiate searches in future impulses, engage in shore bombardment, embark or disembark other units, and possibly some other things.

I'm sure attempts have been made elsewhere to "WiF-zen" disorganizing units to initiate a search or intercept; personally I would relate it to almost-real-life operations by suggesting the unit has to expend extra fuel/supplies or move out of its normal designated patrol to go looking for the enemy.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

You have to flip/disorganize a unit in the seabox to do a search.

A unit being face down has no impact on its combat abilities, it still fights just as hard as a unit face up/organized. The biggest impact is that a disorganized ship has to return to base, whereas a face up one can stay in the sea zone at the end of turn, and go down a box.


Strategy wise, I'll start by flipping the guys I plan on sending back home at the end of the turn anyway, not necessarily the strongest or weakest ship.


EDIT: Oh, and if you're playing with them, flip the CL first. They take less oil to reorg.

Thank you Ur_Vile

Let me rephrase the question a little, I know a unit has to be disorganized by rules, my question is again,why, what were the rules makers thinking about when they made this rule up. I know you cant see their minds but I was just curious.

Sorry paul I was editing and did not see your post yet.

Bo

[paulderynck]

Considerations for initiating search:

Usually you ideally want to disorganize a low combat factor ship that will be the first casualty or abort you will take, if needed. The reasons being:
- if already disorganized, it can't search again in later impulses, and
- it may not make enough difference in total combat factors to lower your attack column in later rounds of combat, and
- you can keep searching during successive combat rounds (in the same impulse, that is) even if that ship aborts

If you have ships in different boxes they may be included this combat round but the ones in lower boxes are less likely to be included in the next combat round, so disorganizing a low combat factor ship in a lower box is preferable to one in a higher box.

Of course if the enemy has air-to-sea factors around, you'll also want to ideally avoid losing or aborting a ship that would lower your AA column.

New players may find the term "disorganized" confusing as it means different things for naval and carrier air units then it does for land and air units.

Edit: So Bo the idea for the rule is that to keep searching in multiple impulses you need to have face-up (i.e. organized) ship available. FREX in essence this is what makes a wolf pack in a sea zone more valuable than a single sub (one search that misses and it's burnt for the turn).

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

You have to flip/disorganize a unit in the seabox to do a search.

A unit being face down has no impact on its combat abilities, it still fights just as hard as a unit face up/organized. The biggest impact is that a disorganized ship has to return to base, whereas a face up one can stay in the sea zone at the end of turn, and go down a box.


Strategy wise, I'll start by flipping the guys I plan on sending back home at the end of the turn anyway, not necessarily the strongest or weakest ship.


EDIT: Oh, and if you're playing with them, flip the CL first. They take less oil to reorg.

Sorry for the mix up of posts paul and thank you for a very well done explanation.


Thank you Ur_Vile, let me rephrase the question, I know a unit has to be disorganized when they are the initiators of naval combat. That is just a rule they made up. I know you have no way of knowing what the rules makers were thinking when they made up this rule.

But please take a shot at it as how it might relate to the combat, my feelings in asking this is we see the rules and we obey the rules but how about the why, I know its just me.

PS. I just sent an e-mail to Harry Rowland, asked him that same question we shall see.

Its obvious that this rule bothers me, 99% of the rules I agree with, but this one is annoying me.

Bo

[bo]

The search was successful for the CW fleet the die roll was a [2] if it had been 3 or more I would have changed it to a 2 [;)] so I could continue the demo of course [:(]

[bo]

The Germans now know they have been sighted and are given the option in the program to either fight through the North sea [naval combat] or run for the hills [back to naval base at Kiel]

Germans say bring it on [:(]