Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

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Wilhammer
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by Wilhammer »

This IS Zen of Analysis.

Thanks, Oznoyng.
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brisd
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by brisd »

I am curious to hear Mogami's views on this subject and if he has any idea what restrictions are placed on Japanese aircraft research via hard coding???

By the way, welcome back Mogami! [8D]
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by mogami »

Hi, Really I don't spend a lot of time concerning myself with it.

There are three periods of the war.

Expansion-Equality-Contraction

The Japanese wish to expand expansion, failing that they want to maintain equality and avoid contraction (or draw it out past the game end date)

They will expand with the aircraft (and airgroups) they begin with. As time passes they will encounter enemy aircraft that are improved compared to those they first encounter.
All the Japanese aircraft improvments happen after Allied aircraft have been improved so Japan is always attempting to just get back equality in the air. (Japanese Inferiority in the air is one of the root causes for the Allies achiving overall equality in 1943)

In 41-42 I use the Nates where I face inferiour allied types. I Add the Oscars where numbers do not achive the desired result and commit the Zeros when all else fails. (Often simply usig the A6M2 at the outset allows the Nate/Oscar combination to finish the job while the A6M2 go looking to new hunting grounds.

Later I intend on using numbers to off set technology. Why worry about production numbers? Over all I know I cannot out produce the enemy. I have to out move him. (have more aircraft locally then they have in range to effect the outcome of a battle)

It's a question of where I place my units. You can know well in advance where enemy aircraft (of any type or quality) will outnumber you. Where enemy supply lines are good and where they are bad. Work to make his lines bad and your good. It's known as Operational planning.


(I'm not done I don't trust my internet conncetion so I'm going to edit this as I go. Also I am cooking my supper)
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brisd
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by brisd »

Thanks Mogami for your initial thoughts. Up late there in my home state (for 1st 18 years of life) of Ohio I see. There has been alot of concern (on my part and others) about the Nate airgroups not being available to upgrade to the historical replacement of the Ki-43, the Ki-84. Once 1943 rolls around, Japan is playing catch-up till the inevitable end. They don't need any more handicaps than history gave them so giving a player a chance to improve on his air units through training and wiser production choices. These planes existed, they fought in the war, let them be available for the end game.

I agree with your assessment of the three phases of the war. IMHO, this game offers Japan a chance to 'win the war' by running the table the first year or so and scoring enough points for an automatic victory. At some point, it will be obvious to the Japanese player he will not score an automatic victory and then he must go for the 'extend the war' victory. I see both situations as key to aircraft production choices for Japan. Japan, like Germany, had to win with the weapons it had on hand at war's start. By the time the Ki-84's and A7M's roll off the production lines, the Allies will have air superiority. If you plan on never getting to that point in the game (having won by auto-victory in 43 or 44) then any effort researching those aircraft is taking away from the chance to win early rather than late. I have never played beyond the first few months of the war so this is all conjecture on my part. Have a good night and good to see you back online even via 24k modem [8D].
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by mogami »

Hi, I think this computer once belonged to Fred Flintstone. Everytime I want to post something I have to wait for the old bird that comes out of the box and flies to peck my message onto the matrix stone tablet. I burnt my chicken waiting for it to post and and I aged enough that 20 percet of my remaining eye sight faded. ( I suffered 3 strokes while editing. Whats that you say? Whipper snappers)

Numbers matter more then aircraft type early on during the period Japan is expanding. The Nates provide short range fighter assets. Oscar mid range, A6M2 long range. Where quality counts use the A6M2 in large numbers. Japan should not be engaged in aircombat in multiple locations after the SRA is secure. (China-Burma and 1 other location to be chosen by the Japanese player)

Later on defense the Japanese will have upgraded all the Army groups (The IJN is not for defense) Still these more robust fighters will be outclassed by enemy fighters. However they work fine against unescorted twin engine and singe engine bombers. (nothing will stop the enemey heavies) So once again Japan is left with numbers being the answer. It is almost as good to have 10 airgroups that can move to a base as it is to have 10 airgroups located there to begin with. Unless the enemy can also rotate in new groups Japan can outlast them. So here even with better aircraft the enemy also needs to have more airgroups and remember he still needs to have many groups scattered about defending against Japanese attacks that will never occur. (The longer you can make him believe you can and will conduct offensive operations the better)


(more to come)
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by SunDevil_MatrixForum »

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mogami
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by mogami »

OK OK my train of thought was derailed.

Japanese aircraft production, aircraft types and wishful thinking.

First your aircgroups arrive on map with aircraft and pilots trained to the level ot the time period so Japanese aircraft production is for replacements not expanding the size of the airforce. All you have to do is sort your aricraft by type and see what they upgrade to and multipy to arrive at how many you need to be building. Don't look for a war winner here.
You can't introduce any type of aircraft in any numbers that will offset the allied advantage. Just make sure your groups can stay at least 75 percent full and keep untrained pilots out of front line units. To do this you set all groups to "Do not recieve replacements" Use other airgroups containing trained pilots as replacements. (divide the Sentai/Daitai and "disband" (not withdraw) them where needed. Say "yes" when asked if you want to reform the group in 60 days. When reformed set it to training so it can be used again for replacements when needed.

"But Mogami that seems like a lot of work why should I bother"?

Because Japan cannot afford to build an aircraft and then give it to untrained pilot who is shot down in his first few missions. Trained pilots are the important thing. Then aircraft. You will do better keeping fewer groups of higher quality in combat compared to large numbers of poor pilots in inferiour aircraft. (your training the enemy )

If you can't put up aircraft in numbers that produce acceptable results concede the battle and prepare for the next one. Large numbers of trained pilots will take high loss ratios but the effect over time of introducing fresh groups will stabilize the situation. (The main idea is after a few days you weaken enemy CAP enough to allow you to unleash a horde of bombers ) You can't do this with dribbles and you can't do it with novice pilots.

So in phase 1 (expansion) you take measures to preserve your pilots while inflicting max damage on enemy.

In phase 2 (equality) you only fight where you can get acceptable results. Here the important thing is often simply escorting bombers. If the bombers get through and do damage the mission is a success. Don't attack targets where even success is valueless because of the nature of the target. You are still preserving your airforce.

In phase 3 You are no longer concerned with your loss only in stopping the enemy. Dcide where you are going to unleash the hounds and then throw everything in. Hold the bombers back at start. (Just enough to put the battle over the enemy TF.) (It will be a TF or it is not the correct battle) You are fighting to keep bases that can support B-29 away from Japan. To this end you have saved your groups. Production is intended to rebuild the groups as you disbad them to keep some in battle while fresh units move in to replace those you've disbanded. When they reform they train. Training levels now depend on the enemy. They will train for the next battle up to the time it begins. (Stage them by degree to be in reach )

OK did I point out I don't really worry about production? I think it is easy to adjust as you go to produce what you need in amounts required. The airforce will expand in 43 and shrink there after. (You'll have more groups training compared to combat the longer the war lasts)
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by ZOOMIE1980 »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

OK OK my train of thought was derailed.

Japanese aircraft production, aircraft types and wishful thinking.

First your aircgroups arrive on map with aircraft and pilots trained to the level ot the time period so Japanese aircraft production is for replacements not expanding the size of the airforce. All you have to do is sort your aricraft by type and see what they upgrade to and multipy to arrive at how many you need to be building. Don't look for a war winner here.
You can't introduce any type of aircraft in any numbers that will offset the allied advantage. Just make sure your groups can stay at least 75 percent full and keep untrained pilots out of front line units. To do this you set all groups to "Do not recieve replacements" Use other airgroups containing trained pilots as replacements. (divide the Sentai/Daitai and "disband" (not withdraw) them where needed. Say "yes" when asked if you want to reform the group in 60 days. When reformed set it to training so it can be used again for replacements when needed.

"But Mogami that seems like a lot of work why should I bother"?

Because Japan cannot afford to build an aircraft and then give it to untrained pilot who is shot down in his first few missions. Trained pilots are the important thing. Then aircraft. You will do better keeping fewer groups of higher quality in combat compared to large numbers of poor pilots in inferiour aircraft. (your training the enemy )

If you can't put up aircraft in numbers that produce acceptable results concede the battle and prepare for the next one. Large numbers of trained pilots will take high loss ratios but the effect over time of introducing fresh groups will stabilize the situation. (The main idea is after a few days you weaken enemy CAP enough to allow you to unleash a horde of bombers ) You can't do this with dribbles and you can't do it with novice pilots.

So in phase 1 (expansion) you take measures to preserve your pilots while inflicting max damage on enemy.

In phase 2 (equality) you only fight where you can get acceptable results. Here the important thing is often simply escorting bombers. If the bombers get through and do damage the mission is a success. Don't attack targets where even success is valueless because of the nature of the target. You are still preserving your airforce.

In phase 3 You are no longer concerned with your loss only in stopping the enemy. Dcide where you are going to unleash the hounds and then throw everything in. Hold the bombers back at start. (Just enough to put the battle over the enemy TF.) (It will be a TF or it is not the correct battle) You are fighting to keep bases that can support B-29 away from Japan. To this end you have saved your groups. Production is intended to rebuild the groups as you disbad them to keep some in battle while fresh units move in to replace those you've disbanded. When they reform they train. Training levels now depend on the enemy. They will train for the next battle up to the time it begins. (Stage them by degree to be in reach )

OK did I point out I don't really worry about production? I think it is easy to adjust as you go to produce what you need in amounts required. The airforce will expand in 43 and shrink there after. (You'll have more groups training compared to combat the longer the war lasts)

Gotta love that "training the enemy" line. There are a lot of places in this game, on both sides, where if you are not watching what you are doing, that the only good you are really doing is "training the enemy". I strive to find situations where the other side allows me "training opportunities".
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by mogami »

Hi, Yes war is simple. Find where with those forces you possess you can hurt the enemy more then he can hurt you.

The tricks. (There are only 3 I know)

1. Force disposal. By this I don't mean throwing away your assets I mean placing them where when the time arrives they can move to those locations where they hurt the enemy.
Friendly forces have to be maintained at hghest levels. Supply and transport have to be supervised to achive this. You have to see where your units will be in 3 months or 30 months in order to have everything ready when needed. Plans are based on what your forces are capable of not what you wish they could do.

2. Movement to contact. Having found a suitable location to engage the enemy you have to get yourself there intact in condition to win as fast as possible to avoid the enemy reaction. Enemy reaction should be considered from the start. Follow up plans should aready exist to turn this reaction into another battle where you hurt them enough to justify it or you move out of harms way. Allow for everything the enemy might do as well as everything they could do. Place yourself in their postion. Recon is vital you have to know all the whats and where's about the enemy. Anyforce known to exist that can't be located has to be assumed to be where it can arrive at the worst moment. Don't hope the enemy make mistake force them to make mistakes.

3. redisposal. Exploit the change in situation wrought by your operations to improve your position to prepare for the next battle.

All the rest is just details
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by moses »

Do I understand correctly? Your'e supposed to divide your carrier aircraft and then disband them? I tried to practice this. I divided one of my fighter groups. They broke into three parts. Then I tried to disband one of them. Got a msg that said carrier groups cannot be disbanded. Obviously I'm doing something wrong.
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by mogami »

Hi, No I'm sorry. I have a tendancy to assume a certain level of understanding that by rights I should not take for granted. Carrier groups are your pride and joy. Use land based but carrier capable groups and reserve the limited number of trained pilots in your pool for them. ((Just don't select "accept replacements" when there are fewer pilots in the pool then replacements needed)


I will elaborate further. You must be in port to combine groups. First insure all aircraft in the group are repaired and ready (nothing in reserve as you don't want to form a sub group on a carrier)
Then move group to shore and combine you can then move back to CV that same turn.
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by moses »

Ok thanks. Why land based? If you have pilots in pool can't you have your carrier based pilots accept replacements. Yes my level of understanding is quite low. Take nothing for granted. Which groups is it then that you divide? Can't you just disband whole groups? Please don't feel the need to answer quickly but pilot training may be a topic others might also like explained more clearly.
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by mogami »

Hi, Land based because as you found out carrier groups may not be disbanded. (you can withdraw them but the pilots go with the group leaving only the aircraft behind.)

Japan has very few carrier capable land based bomber groups (Val and Kate) so the groups to use as replacement here is easy to decide. At start of war I do not allow them to accept replacements. (All my IJN pilots in pool are reserved for the carrier groups) While pilot exist in pool I combine undersized groups of Patrol/medium bomber to create future training groups. Most of the IJN is over sized in aircraft at start. (The 27 aircraft Betty/Nell Daitai mostly begin with 27 ready and then another 7 or so damaged or in reserve. There are a number of 9 aircraft Chutai as well that will serve as replacement groups when the time comes.

My intent is to maintain my carrier groups. But since the pool pilots are 70's at most I will use land based groups with better pilots before drawing on the 70's. Japan wants to get a training program up and running as soon as possible so you have to empty an existing group of the well trained pilots and then when it returns on map with untrained pilots place it into training. It is the period between your using the landbased pilots and having them retrained that you draw on the pool. You also need to reserve a few groups to serve as replcements for the other landbased carrier capable groups your are using in combat.

The higher IJA pool allows for you to use this pool more often and sooner but I still would use those 12 plane groups as replacements where you can (and at start there are plenty of under sized Nate groups) This is to get them into the training cycle soon as you can more then it is to preserve the pilot pool. Where you can fill up groups at start by disbanding groups I would do so. Training requires a long time (12-18 months) The earlier you get groups started the better. The main goal is to avoid ever having to send a untrained pilot to a front line unit. It is better to use a group training on map then it is to use untrained pilots. (Send the trained pilots and then use the untrained ones to start a new training group)


Where do untrained pilots come from? Whenever a group is short a pilot and you have set it to recieve replacements a pilot is drawn from your pool. If the pool is empty an untrained pilot is sent. There is no limit to the number of untrained pilots you can draw. (except for the number of vacent slots in your airgroups) The more untrained pilos you draw the lower their rating. This means early in the war you will be able to train groups faster then you can later in the war after you have drawn alot of untrained pilots. This represents the fact that at first you are really shortening the training not drawing completly untrained pilots.
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by moses »

OK thanks a lot. I think I have a clue now.
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by Rainerle »

HI Mogami,
one thing: When a disbanded group comes back on map it takes its planes out of the pool and:
- its pilots from the pool ?
or
- untrained pilots from off the pool ?
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by Culiacan Mexico »

ORIGINAL: Rainerle

HI Mogami,
one thing: When a disbanded group comes back on map it takes its planes out of the pool and:
- its pilots from the pool ?
or
- untrained pilots from off the pool ?
...or trained pilots with an experience rating based on the year of return.

Disbanded Groups = Reinforcements


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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by esteban »

I have found a useful way to train Japanese pilots. Don't take every Allied held island in your advance into SRA. There are several islands that can be bypassed, and then pummeled from the air, both to keep them pinned down, and to train your crews.

The Allies did this in the real war, so you can do the same thing in the virtual war.

Cebu in the Phillipines is a good example of a base that can be bypassed. It has a reasonable sized garrison on it, with potential size 4 airfields and port. There is no particular reason why you need Cebu itself, the Central Phillipines are full of similar or better bases, and you can spare yourself a few casualties by just letting the Yanks die out.

You can capture this island at will, right up to the time that the Americans return to the Phillipines.
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by mogami »

Hi, Using combat to train pilots is ok if they are already trained. Using combat to train untrained pilots means you will be losing many to op loss. Since there is so much actual combat the trained pilots will gain experiance anyway. Just moving untrained pilots is risky. (I set the group to training 0 percent and let all pilots attend ground school till they are over 30 then I begin actual flight training at 10-30 percent depending on weather.)
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by brisd »

Mogami-

When you say you set all aircraft to no replacements, are you saying every unit? I can see the front line units not wanting untrained pilots but what about transports, recon, home defense? ALOT of micro-management for a game that has WAY too much IMHO already. I can see doing it for carrier aircraft, front-line bombers and fighter units. And where do you come up with all these units to disassemble for the replacements? Japan doesn't have much to spare in the beginning or are you referring to reinforcement airgroups? Thanks!
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RE: Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

Post by mogami »

Hi, Well don't get me started on micro management. (I think it is attention to detail and it is the small things properly done that produce results in the big picture)

The IJA pool is large enough to issue pilots from the start. I still use some of the smaller units to fill up larger ones just to get these groups into the training program. (They need 2 months just to come back onto map) There are a few IJN transport groups. I don't want them getting my good pilots so they have to wait to fill up. (same with float plane groups)

The Japanese have more then enough at start for the SRA offensive and Central Pacific (Kwajalein) Defense. Japan wants to be ready in May 1942 to open the next major offensive (where ever it might be) There are plenty of reinforment groups arriving prior to then.

The most important part of Japanese Conduct of the War is pilot training and airgroup maintenance. Players will get back from their airforces what they put into them. If you wait till the time when your groups are already suffering to decide you need to start taking care of them it will be too late. Every pilot that begins the war is next to impossible to replace. You will get a pilot but you will never be able to train him to what the one you lost was. It is far better to have too many groups in training cycle then it is to have too few. If you have too many training groups and one is ready for combat, you have a new combat group. If you are out of pilots in the pool and a front line unit requires replacements and you have no trained group designated for this then you have to remove a group from combat. The only hope the Japanese have itowards winning a sustained air campaign is a reserve of trained pilots. It only takes a day or 2 of combat to alter the direction it is going. Every battle has a moment when the next side that does something (commit reserves) will gain the advantage.

What is a air battle? And why do we fight them.

When I refer to an Air Battle I am refering to those instances when the 2 opposing sides begin a contest for control of the air over a base or area. The most common reason for commencing an airbattle is the desire to at some future time occupy a new base currently held by the enemy and protected by his air power.

If the defender cannot maintain air control (or at least equality) then the enemy is free to move his ships.

In both the offensive and the defense the side that can maintain maxium combat performance for the longer duration wins.

The attacker will always have the advantage at start because he has known the battle was coming and prepared for it specificlly on a certain date. The attacker always tries to inflict maxium damage at the outset of the battle. The defender has up to this time been forced to prepare for battle and several locations. (The attacker knowing where he is going can concentrate while the defender has to disperse)

The only remedy for the defender then is to have at his disposal a reserve of aircraft large enough to restore the balance. He has to wear down the attacker. He has the advantage of fighting over his own bases.

The Japanese must always reserve a portion of their air force for the defense and for commiting at the critical times and places to influence ongoing airbattles. Only by maintaining whole groups of trained pilots as replacements can this be achived.

By using the group as replacements rather then commiting it intact into combat Japan actually increases her active front line numbers.

Example
At start of airbattle Frontline 3xA6M2 Daitai 27 AC each
Reserve 1xA6M2 Daitai 27 AC

Japan can commit the reserve group intact or she can use it to insure the 3 front line units remain at or near full strength. Just when the enemy has reduced the front line units by 33 percent or more they are restored to 100 percent. In the mean time Japan has had time to move other units into the battle.
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