First Carrier Battle: 2v1=Draw?

[Rogue188]

I'm not sure what to think about this unexpected battle while the Japanese attempt to secure their position on baker Island:

Game difficulty: Hard

March 22, 1942
Enterprise and Yorktown vs Shokaku range, about 3 hexs.

Japanese attack first:
A6M2 Zero x5
B5N2 Kate x22
D3A1 Val x25

Results: One torpedo hit on Yorktown, 1 Zero, 9 Kates, and 9 Vals destroyed

1st American Attack:
F4F-3A Wildcat x13
F4F-3 Wildcat x13
SBD-2 Dauntless x15
SBD-3 Dauntless x33
TBD-1 Devastator x14

Results: No hits, 4 Wildcats destroyed, 2 Dauntless destroyed, and 1 Devastator destroyed

2nd American attack:
TBD-1 Devastator x14

Results: 1 torpedo hit on Shokaku, no plane losses

I have to admit, I don't know what to think about this battle. The Yorktown has some flooding and systems damage, but is otherwise operational with some loss in speed. My assumption is that Shokaku is probably in about the same shape. While I didn't expect to see the Japanese carriers, I'm glad the damage was rather minor. I am a little disappointed in my pilots. Given the advantage in just numbers, I thought it would have a better showing. However, I do feel fortunate that my unescorted Devastators weren't wiped out! Hopefully this will force Shokaku to withdraw from the area.

[Platoonist]

I hate dueling with Japanese carriers early in the war. 3 to 1 odds feel about where you have an edge but that is rare. They just outperform every time. I usually hope for a lucky hit by a sub to attrit their numbers a bit.

[Rogue188]

I'm also glad that the carriers weren't more damaged. Given the numbers, I figured one of both would have received a bomb hit. I think it was their weak escort along with my stronger CAP that helped.

[Bella]

Japanese Naval airmen were the best in the world at the start of the Pacific war (yes, even better than the Americans). Years of operations off the coast of China had rubbed all the rough edges off their operations and their pilots had hundreds and in some cases thousands of hours of flight time under their belts.

Despite the obvious problems with lack of armour, the Zeroes, Val’s and Kates were deadly in the hands of these men. Which is why you have to lose carriers killing these men off. Having a well staffed airbase in range during the fight, like Port Moresby or Canton Island can really add to the carnage. You’ll lose carriers and a lot of your own planes and pilots, but the Japanese cannot afford to lose that razor edge. They simply can’t train enough pilots to replace those men. I’m told it takes until end of 1942 on average to wear them down to where the naval air combat is at least equal.

(I had one great fortunate break in my game. CV Soryu was sunk by a Dutch sub off of Java, and I don’t think any of her air groups survived. No friendly airbases or carriers nearby. That was a totally unexpected bonus.

[Platoonist]

(I had one great fortunate break in my game. CV Soryu was sunk by a Dutch sub off of Java, and I don’t think any of her air groups survived. No friendly airbases or carriers nearby. That was a totally unexpected bonus.

In terms of subs, I'm always hoping the Dutch, the British and the odd S-Boat can find themselves in the path of a Japanese carrier. I don't put much stock in the more modern US subs with their toothless torpedoes until a lot later.

[RangerJoe]

First of all, you don't have to lose the carriers to take out the elite Japanese naval aircrews. You can shoot them down over your ships and bases.

Also, even if the ship is sunk, the pilots may be saved and later put into the reserve pools. The same goes for the pilots that have to ditch their aircraft.

[Bella]

First of all, you don't have to lose the carriers to take out the elite Japanese naval aircrews. You can shoot them down over your ships and bases.

Also, even if the ship is sunk, the pilots may be saved and later put into the reserve pools. The same goes for the pilots that have to ditch their aircraft.

I agree with you, but personally I find it hard to get close enough to the Kido Butai to kill their airmen in droves and not take hits on my own carriers. In my current game, I just had the first major naval air battle, near PM. Lost the Lexington. Saratoga took a torpedo but she’s healing in Sydney. Sank two CVLs. Shot down (after playing Japanese side just to check) about 50% of their air groups. I called that pretty even for May ‘42.

[RangerJoe]

First of all, you don't have to lose the carriers to take out the elite Japanese naval aircrews. You can shoot them down over your ships and bases.

Also, even if the ship is sunk, the pilots may be saved and later put into the reserve pools. The same goes for the pilots that have to ditch their aircraft.

I agree with you, but personally I find it hard to get close enough to the Kido Butai to kill their airmen in droves and not take hits on my own carriers. In my current game, I just had the first major naval air battle, near PM. Lost the Lexington. Saratoga took a torpedo but she’s healing in Sydney. Sank two CVLs. Shot down (after playing Japanese side just to check) about 50% of their air groups. I called that pretty even for May ‘42.

I don't find it too hard to kill the Kido Butai against the AI. The POW with 14 inch rifles does a very good job, an "R" class battleship sank the Shokaku in my current game.

Something to ponder
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 5&t=403203

[Chickenboy]

IRL, the thing that most damaged the IJNAF was the attritional battles in the Solomon islands mid-1942-1943. There the prized aviators of the Kido Butai found themselves linked to / attached to airfields that were long distances from their patrol / attack zones and were forced to fly superfluous numbers of long-distance flights and then try to recover to airfields that were a long ways away afterwards.

When combined with Allied attacks on staging airfields or storage / maintenance / repair facilities, this bled the IJNAF of its highly prized and highly skilled aviators during the campaign to sequester the Solomons and Rabaul.

Attacking the Kido Butai early in the war without numerical superiority on their 'home turf' (e.g., with a coherent KB on multiple CVs, NOT dispersed on far-flung underdeveloped airfields piecemeal) is an Allied qualitative disadvantage. Against the AI, anything can happen. But against most Japanese human players, the lone Allied CV is in grave danger.

I think Pye made the right decision in December 1941 not to send the Saratoga into harm's way trying to reinforce Wake island. During the second Japanese effort (the successful one) to secure the island, two Japanese CVs were supporting the effort. Stumbling across two Japanese CVs blindly with a single Allied CV (not to mention the sizeable Japanese cruiser force in support as well) could have upset the American timetable for the whole Pacific war thereafter.

[RangerJoe]

In hindsight I agree with you but the relief task force could have stayed ready while destroyers raced in to evacuate the civilians and wounded, if not the rest of the garrison. Then the destroyers could have transfer most of the rescued individuals to other ships. Then "Hammering Hank" could have been given the blue ribbon instead of his widow, if he would have received it for his aerial feats only.

[Chickenboy]

In hindsight I agree with you but the relief task force could have stayed ready while destroyers raced in to evacuate the civilians and wounded, if not the rest of the garrison. Then the destroyers could have transfer most of the rescued individuals to other ships. Then "Hammering Hank" could have been given the blue ribbon instead of his widow, if he would have received it for his aerial feats only.

IRL the timeline of the second Japanese attack (and the voyage of the Saratoga relief force) made it a footrace to the island. The short legs of the American DDs and CA/Cls necessitated time-consuming refueling during their trip from the West Coast and / or Pearl. Any furtive effort by a DD squadron to rush in and evacuate civilians and wounded would have seen them show up to an island under siege with a vastly superior Japanese naval force present in support of the Japanese landings. It would have been a bloody one-sided end for any American shipping near Wake.

[RangerJoe]

In hindsight I agree with you but the relief task force could have stayed ready while destroyers raced in to evacuate the civilians and wounded, if not the rest of the garrison. Then the destroyers could have transfer most of the rescued individuals to other ships. Then "Hammering Hank" could have been given the blue ribbon instead of his widow, if he would have received it for his aerial feats only.

IRL the timeline of the second Japanese attack (and the voyage of the Saratoga relief force) made it a footrace to the island. The short legs of the American DDs and CA/Cls necessitated time-consuming refueling during their trip from the West Coast and / or Pearl. Any furtive effort by a DD squadron to rush in and evacuate civilians and wounded would have seen them show up to an island under siege with a vastly superior Japanese naval force present in support of the Japanese landings. It would have been a bloody one-sided end for any American shipping near Wake.

If the relief force would have been sent out sooner or if the admirals would have realized that Wake could not be defended in the long term then an evacuation force could have been sent even sooner. The Japanese would have been bloodied and driven off the first time but when they returned only the birds would have greeted them, unless a force of S-Boats would have been available to do a "meet and greet" with the Japanese.