Blowing off steam..disgusted with Games AI

[jjjanos]

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The Allied strategic bomber forces were fully committed to Overlord targets in June through August. 100% historically accurate.

Fully = 100% on overlord targets? No strategic targets were bombed in those three months?

IIRC, 8th AF was 100% committed to support of Overlord both in the run-up to the invasion and in the first few weeks after the landing.

After that, the Army Air Corps received permission to bomb strategic targets if, and only if, weather forecasts for France/Low Countries indicated a high likelihood of bad bombing weather.

I.e. The heavies hit Germany in summer 1944, but only when they couldn't hit France.

[JeffroK]

11th June 1944
Scheduled attacks on targets in Germany are cancelled due to bad weather.
12th June 1944
ditto
13th June 1944
ditto
14th June 1944
ditto, except for 61 x B24 hitting oil at Emmerich
15th June 1944
Nearly 200 8thAF heavies hit oil at Hanover
16th June 1944
Weather cancels raids on Germany

It appears on face value, that the weather caused the delay in return to attacks on Germany and diverted the Heavies into continuing support of the landings.

[joliverlay]

OK

If the game allows the Allied player to assign RAF groups that did not escort heavies to escort them by an exploit, and allows mandatory targets to be ignored by another exploit in the code, would you please add some counter exploits for the German players?

Maybe let us change FW190 F/G to something else. Delay invasions or break outs if the Allied forces don't bomb ground forces. Maybe give me some bombers to attack the UK while their defensive fighters are off escorting bombers. That sort of thing.

[otisabuser2]

Hi Joliverlay,

don't think the two exploits mentioned were intentionally designed-in by the programmers. They are accidental loop-holes. Neither break the game, unless used to excess by the players. Use is very much down to the reasoning of the person using. If you don't like them, don't use them.

Harley's time is valuable, and should be directed towards issues and the wants that affect the majority of the players. The items you would like included, should be judged on their own merits, not as a "balance" to existing exploits.

regards Otis

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: joliverlay

OK

If the game allows the Allied player to assign RAF groups that did not escort heavies to escort them by an exploit, and allows mandatory targets to be ignored by another exploit in the code, would you please add some counter exploits for the German players?

Maybe let us change FW190 F/G to something else. Delay invasions or break outs if the Allied forces don't bomb ground forces. Maybe give me some bombers to attack the UK while their defensive fighters are off escorting bombers. That sort of thing.

And you can research & build advanced aircraft months ahead of their IRL appearance?

Even playing the AI I am up against He219 & Ta154 in jan 44!

[joliverlay]

Otis

I was not serious (except perhaps about the FW190F/G). My point was that unintended exploits should be fixed. The political targets are the only device in the game to force the player to bomb things he actually had to bomb IRL. Letting folks "opt out" can break the game. I've played the game in this and in the previous form for a long time, and I've never seen any Allied player devote the resources to the ground war (over the course of the game) that would have been required IRL to support the ground war. Diversion of the Allied air forces for specific periods was a good compromise and should not have been broken.

JeffK

You should see the He219 before January 1944. Likewise, unless you destroy some specific factories (as the Allied bombers did IRL) the R/D should be considerably faster. Of course I don't know that you did not plaster German aircraft factories. The AI may also "cheat". I have no idea.

[NAVMAN]

Hi All: Regarding the 8th AF missions of 6/18/44, 6/29/44, 7/11/44, 7/13/44, and 7/16/44,
my father flew those as a B17G bombardier assigned to the 325BS, 92BG(H), flying
out of Podington. On the 7/16/44 mission to Munich, his target was the BMW Aero Engine
Plant. As he related to me, as the force neared the Nurenburg area, the weather
deteriorated, with cloud tops to approx 30k Ft. The formation was forced to break apart
and the group came under heavy fighter attack. His plane, along with two others in the
92d, were shot down. The radio operator was killed in the plane and the copilot
"dumped" the air out of his chute to avoid landing in trees. The rest were captured and
he spent the rest of the war in Stalag Luft I, Barth, Germany. Ironically, their own plane,
"The Mountaineer" was down for repairs, so they flew another crew's plane, "Battle Baby".
In addition, their normal radio man was being trained as a lead crew radio man, so they
had a replacement. He was the man who died in the airplane.

Thx.

[Erkki]

Personally I'd like to see all axis planes(except 109Ga2 and Ga6 perhaps) come one month LATE, unless researched. And research needed to advance date by month should be exponential, 100 planes for one month...

And on the other hand Allied player should need to bomb targets to keep the frontline moving historically. If he didnt, the ground war should stop or breakthrough dates should be delayed by months.

[Rusty1961]

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell

ORIGINAL: Terminus
The Allied strategic bomber forces were fully committed to Overlord targets in June through August. 100% historically accurate.

And you are 100% incorrect in making such a blanket statement. A quick look at Freeman's Mighty Eight War Diary shows that strategic raids were made against Germany:

June 18th: Hamburg, Harburg, and Hannover
June 20th: Magdeburg, Hannover, Poelitz
June 21st: Berlin
June 29th: Boehlen, Leipzig
July 7th: Boehlen, Leipzig
July 11th: Munich
July 13th: Munich
July 16th: Munich, Stuttgart
July 19th: Augsburg, Schweinfurt, and other targets in southern Germany
July 20th: Leipzig, Merseburg, Erfurt, Gotha
July 21st: Munich, Duren, Regensburg, Schweinfurt, etc
July 29th: Mersebrug, Bremen
July 31st: Munich, Ludwigshafen
August 4th: Hamburg, Peenemunde, Kiel, Rostock
August 5th: Madgeburg, Brunswick, Hannover
August 6th: Brandenburg, Berlin, Hamburg
August 9th: Ulm, Pirmasens, Saarbrucken and other railyards in southern Germany
August 15th: Airfields inside Germany and Holland
August 16th: Oil and airfields in Germany - Boehlen, Zeitz, Madgeburg
August 24th: Brunswick, Merseburg, Brux, Ruhland
August 25th: Rostock, Politz, Peenemunde
August 26th: Ludwigshafen, Gelsenkirchen
August 27th: Flensburg railyard, Emden, Wilhemshaven, Helgoland

The other days were targeted against "Overlord" targets in game terms. Airfields, V-Weapon sites (Noball) and railyards (mostly in eastern France and Belgium - 9th AF took care of those closer to the front).

It is fully justifiable to use the retargeting work around to hit strategic targets in the game if you want to.

And worthwhile to know your facts before writing.

Thanks for posting this Nicholas. I knew the claim was not correct.

The internet is a great tool!

[Rusty1961]

Thank you Navman for that bit of history.

Did your father say what brought his plane down?

[NAVMAN]

Rusty1961: My apologies for not replying sooner.
Yes, he told me that after the formation broke up, they came under attack by ME109s
firing cannon from outside their .50cal range.
I would also mention, that outside of this mission, he told me that the toughest and longest,
were the missions he flew to Leipzig. He got nailed on his 16th mission. Another piece of irony was that the day he got shot down, was the day he got promoted fron 2LT to 1LT.
He d/n know about that till he was liberated. Big bucks and a better cabin on the boat ride
from France to NYC.
When I visited the UK, I went to the US cemetary at Cambridge, I think it was.I inquired about the copilot, who had been burried in Germany. His body had been exhumed, and placed in a US cemetary in France.
My dad did not fly on D-Day, but I attended a reunion of the 92d in the UK. I spoke w/the lead navigator for the group on D-Day and he advised that visual conditions were horrible.
My dad did fly "tactical" missions in D-Day support,after the landings, including, he told me, two(2) missions on one(1) day to attack airfields in Belgium.

Thx.