Poll - King Karl XII of Sweden

[ShermanM4]

Just to clarify, Carolus did not fight the 30 years war. The Swedes were good fighters then too but it was the in the great northern war the Swedish military outshined every other army.

I am not trying to criticise or rain on the achievmants of King and one whom I know virtually next to nothing about, but dont you think your exaggerating a bit when you say, "outshined?" As far as I can tell Narva was absolutely brilliant, none the less the Russian have always been notorious for suffering heavy losses on the field of battle. I am not saying this from the twentieth century perspective, but the from the perspective of there little war with Poland in the early 1600's, when yes the Poles, marched down the streets of Moscow. Or even the previous four centuries there wars and pitced battles with the mongols and the tatters. Always resulting in heavy, heavy losses.

Furthermore fill me in, let me know, educated me, what Western European army did King Carolous XII fight? Or in what way were his strategies later adapted? I really am geniunely curious.

Carolus was afaik the last King in europe that charged with he front line of his own army and never demanded anything from his soldiers he wouldn't do himself. Carolus never gave the order "go!", he gave the order "come with me!" The other Kings and Commander at that time commanded their army from an hill at a safe location.

This is all interresting stuff, but plenty of European armies have been victorious and contributed a great deal to the annals of military history with out their king in the ranks right next to them.

[Kung Karl]

King Charles XII fought Denmark, Russia and Poland-Saxony. Those were his main enemies. Hannover and Prussia later declared war on Sweden.

My statement about the king fighting alongside his troops was about proving his dedication and warrior character. THe moral boost that was gained was one factor that contributed to the Swedish army reputation as fierce fighters. Of course armies that have their commanders standing on a hill far away can do fight battles just as well.

The Swedish army was diffrent in the way that it was made up of Swedish peasants and not recruited mercenaries. The men were all from the same neigbourhood and fought for eachother better than paid soldiers would have done.

The army was also trained much like the Wehrmacht in WW2, it was an offesive machine and had not trained for defence. This was shown early in the war when the other nations declared war on Sweden but it was Sweden that went on the offensive.

I will continue later, have to go. Sorry about any missspelling i'm in a hurry.

[K62]

All right I take back what I said about the heroic death However, after he was defeated by Peter the Great at Poltava he was exiled for some years in a Turkish castle, right? Did he come back to Sweden after that or how did he die in battle

Also, was he some kind of Napoleon or did something permanent come out of his conquests?

[Belisarius]

All right I take back what I said about the heroic death However, after he was defeated by Peter the Great at Poltava he was exiled for some years in a Turkish castle, right? Did he come back to Sweden after that or how did he die in battle

Also, was he some kind of Napoleon or did something permanent come out of his conquests?

Well he wasn't really exiled - after Poltava the remnants of the Swedish Army fled to Turkey. This wasn't a bad call at all, there had been previous negotiations with the Turks about joining the war against Russia. Now they established a more or less permanent station in the vicinity of Bender, with some 7-8 large houses all built after the standard Army drawings. After a few years though, the sultan grew tired and decided to kick them out and the result was spectacular. 50 some hardened swedish veterans, the last survivors from Narva and Poltava, against thousands of Turks. This episode is known to all Swedes as "Kalabaliken i Bender", or "the Bender tumult" if you like. Carolus XII then decided to persuade the managing of Sweden from a closer point - he fled along with three of his most trusted officers. :rolleyes: They probably set a speed record doing it; only three days after the flight from Bender (in Turkey), they arrived at the docks in Stralsund at the Baltic sea.

Home again it didn't take long for the King to feel the urgency for another war - this time against Norway ,who was a province of Denmark since waay back, so it was more of 'convincing' the Norwegians to NOT help Denmark in their war effort. Things went pretty well - this was a complete invasion of Norway from three points; south to Oslo, center to Trondheim (only pass through the mountains leads to Trondheim) and way up north with a small force.

The southern prong heading for Oslo laid siege to the impressive fortress of Fredrikshald, south of Oslo. There, while inspecting the front from the trenches, the King was struck in the head with a musquet bullet and died on the spot.

To this day, it is still a controversy wether he was killed by a Norwegian sniper or shot by his own men. I have been to Fredrikshald, and it's by no means an impossible shot from the fortress wall out to the trench, but the accuracy of the firearms of early 18th century leaves something to be desired. The regicide theory is supported by a bullet that has been on display that supposedly killed him - it's not an ordinary lead shot but a uniform button - from a Swedish uniform. :p The motif ofcourse would be to end 21 years of uninterrupted warfare. OTOH, morale in the Swedish army was good, and Carolus was held in high esteem by rank and officers alike.

This might see its conlusion soon - they are now analyzing the button-bullet for DNA and match it with DNA sampled from the King's body. Personally, it wouldn't surprise me if they don't find any. The whole explanation is just too convenient. I think it was established during the Swedish-Norwegian union of 1814-1905, when there was much need to mend the relations between the nations.

Oh, and the tragedies for the Swedish army wasn't over - the contigent up at Trondheim was ordered to pull back at the news of the King's death. They did so over the mountain pass, and was caught in a blizzard that claimed a majority of them. (some 2-3000 if I remember correctly)

Edit: Answer to your last question K62 - yes, he was a Napoleon of sorts. Not only did he too fail to capture Moscow by the very same reasons that killed la Grande Armée - winter and scorched earth. One would think Napoleon would have learned from his example. :rolleyes: The only lasting effect of his campaigns was the passing of Sweden as a major power in Europe. One could argue that this saved our hinies later on, with the Napoleonic wars and World wars much later, since Sweden was no longer important for anyone. What he *did* accomplish though, in spite of the extremely heavy odds, was to kick Denmark's behind once and for all. This was the end of almost 350 years of continuous Dano-Swedish wars over Baltic domination. The fact that Russia came out of it as a major power probably helped, too...

[Firefly]

Yeah I've heard of Charles XII, but not until I got a wargame on the Battle of Poltava in Strategy and Tactics (I think). Wasn't he one of the first to break Montgomery's First Rule of War - 'Don't invade Russia' .

[Kung Karl]

Carolus invaded Russia out of need to to do it. He thought that if Russia wasn't beaten they would come back later and destroy the Swedish empire so he needed to invade while Sweden had the upper hand. In 1708 when the invasion begun Sweden was at its height of power. Russia sued and begged for peace but Carolus had other plans. Unfortunaly for him the Russian winter sealed Swedens destiny just as it defeated the Wehrmacht for the Russians.

At the battle at Poltava, which can be diveded up in phases, the Russian line actually started to break in the final phase. But it was only 4000 swedes against 20 000 russians, with modern and full supply in the final phase. The Swedish army didn't have any supply for another enagment and the King was wounded and could not participate. But even at that point the Swedes marched on aginst the green masses of russian soldiers. If the Swedish cavalry chock had come at that time when the russians started to break the battle could have been won but it never came. They were hunting the fleeing russian cavalry.

These battles should be studied by those of you interseted in great battles of the 18th century.

[K62]

What was that thing again with 50 Swedes against thousands of Turks 18th century Ishandlwana, eh?

[ShermanM4]

King Charles XII fought Denmark, Russia and Poland-Saxony. Those were his main enemies. Hannover and Prussia later declared war on Sweden.

I am definately interrested, is there perhaps a Swedish biographer/biography that is published in English about King Charles XII? By the way regarding the statement about Napeleon should have learned, did he even know about those campaigns? Perhaps I am revealing my own ignorance, but I was not aware that French military acadamies were taking any curiculum from Northern and Eastern Europe ( of course barring England and Germany).

[Kung Karl]

I think Napoleon knew about Charles XII. Every european nation wanted Charlex XII as their allied and the great european nations all tried to pursuade Charles XII to join their side in the Spanish war of succesion. So, the wars of Charles XII did not pass by in the dark. Hey, after six years of constant victories the swedish army was considered one of the best in europe. Every one knew and feard Charles XII.

About books on the subject, this is what I found in a brief search.

"Sweden may not be considered a great European power today, but several hundred years ago it emerged - albeit briefly - as a strong empire that rivaled the equally developing Russia. This list selects the best books for readers wanting to learn about early modern, modern and imperial Swedish history."
http://europeanhistory.about.com/cs/sca ... sweden.htm

[Kung Karl]

This is an article on the King over at The History Net
http://europeanhistory.about.com/librar ... weden1.htm

Recomended for a short introduction on the subject.

[melcer]

Interresting subject with interresting answers and discussions.

For the swedes here (and those finns who knows swedish) there's a good source for military history in sweden nowdays: www.smb.nu

I recently got from them a book about all major swedish battles, both land and naval, since the founding of our country to the later stages of the Napoleonic wars. No wars since then.

One interresting battle was in the 16th century where sweden actually helped Russia vs Poland so we have not always been antagonists!

I haven't got to the great nordic war battles yet but I have a book about the battle for Narva written by an estonian (actually their former ambassador to sweden) which describes the whole early war with russia. I don't know if it's translated to english but I hope they will since it's a supperb book. = Segern vid Narva by Margus Laidre.

Melcer

[Belisarius]

What was that thing again with 50 Swedes against thousands of Turks 18th century Ishandlwana, eh?

Quite! Only this time, they got away....

Also, IIRC, I don't think the Turks were out to slay them, just give them a friendly nudge in the right direction - which would be out of Turkey with lightning speed.

[CCB]

So you're telling us that you wanted your Matrix forum name to be 'King Karl' but you misspelled it?

[melcer]

So you're telling us that you wanted your Matrix forum name to be 'King Karl' but you misspelled it?

"Kung" means "King" in swedish so his name is correct except the XII.

Melcer

[CCB]

"Kung" means "King" in swedish so his name is correct except the XII

Ah! I thought he was just some Chinese dude. :p

[Kung Karl]

My name refer to that king, yes. I did not forgett XII but left it out on purpose. I don't want to use his name, just give an indication. Thats all there is to it. You got to have a name on the forum and since this is a wargamers forum I thought that that name would be appropriate. He was after all an all out warrior king and great commander.