Order Delays

[Helpless]

wow! [X(] you just killed my illusion that I understand how orders work in AA [8|] [:D]

Last question, can I ignore "current" order structure for a while?

[Real and Simulated Wars]

Ey guys,
Sorry I haven't been able to respond before.

In fact there are three different structures - organic, player and current.
[...]
The current structure is how the units are assigned once they develop their plans based on your orders
[...]
... nothing displays the current structure

That explains it. There is a (invisible to us) current structure that results in those extra loads and delays. Thank you Dave.

We better be on the watch for force delays when we play the scenarios then.
In these scenarios the available forces are few and it is likely that many players will micromanage every single unit. In that case there will be not extra loads or delays.



P/S: Dave, do you want a savegame? This is from PWC's scenario 2. After delays-free period is gone, I just clicked on 9thBn HQ and ordered a move towards the south. Then I checked on the Cmd tab to check delays.

[Real and Simulated Wars]

ORIGINAL: Helpless
I just started to pay attention to that. Sometimes I see that load on companies goes up to 4, when the whole Bn consist of 6 units. At the same time the load on Bn HQ stays the same.. [&:]

Helpless,

Could you expand a bit about this?

Thanks,

[Helpless]

I was expecting that increased load on subordinates should relief it from the Bn HQ, i.e. if Coy A take command on Art A than load on Bn HQ should be reduced by 1. [&:]

Probably I've been mixing "player" and "current" command structures. The problem is that "current" command structure is semi-visible.

[06 Maestro]

This is getting very interesting already. I had noted the command lines did not always correspond to the current organization, but did not fully investigate this.

Now that I’m checking this, I noticed something I was not aware of that the game did; assign higher HQ assets to a lower HQ conducting an operation (within the same organization). This is perfectly logical, but I was unaware this occurred.

An example; In Maltese Cross (which I’m currently playing) I detached one Bn from the Sturm Regiment for a division task and then ordered the regiment into an assault task. Even though the C&C lines show the normal channels, 3 of about 5 regimental assets (not including FJ Bn’s) have been put under direct control of ll FJ Bn which is leading the attack. This is perfectly logical, and I assume within German doctrine-so no complaint there. The down side to this is that the beefed up FJ Bn, which has a command capacity of 5, now has a current load of 8. How bad of a drag on the operation this causes, I don’t know-but this particular attack did get underway in a reasonable time.

I should state that the regimental assets were not attached by me, and there is no re-attach option for these units. I base my observations on the OOB and current command loads.

This little discovery has opened up another aspect to complete planning. If the units/commanders involved were of a lower skill level this added command load could be (I'm assuming) quite detrimental. Until now, this player would have been wondering "what the hell".

One step towards Nirvanna.

[Real and Simulated Wars]

I was expecting that increased load on subordinates should relief it from the Bn HQ

Well, not in this case.

If I understand correctly, in the example above the Bn HQ is still in (organic, player and current) command of the main guard unit/s. So it shouldn't be relieved of its load.

[Arjuna]

re Staff Load costs. It's not a straight 1 point for 1 unit. Check out the chart at the bottom of page 197 of the Reference Manual.

[06 Maestro]

So, you think I never saw that? Well, you're right. But it is in the last 2% of the reference manuel. I wondered why divisional command load was a small fraction of what it should have been.

[Arjuna]

06 Maestro,
 
Now you do realise you have just breached our copyright don't you?
 
I tell you what, send a case of good beer ( none of that Budwieser swill ) and we'll forget all about it. [;)]

[06 Maestro]

Oops, I was only trying to save server space. 
 
Budweiser is not bad when mixed with tomato juice, ice cubes and tabasco sauce-nice on those summer scorchers.
 
I admit, I did develope a taste for some nice German brew some years ago; I buy a good stock of Spaten pills a few times a year.(I don't add tomato juice to SP)

[Txema]

An example; In Maltese Cross (which I’m currently playing) I detached one Bn from the Sturm Regiment for a division task and then ordered the regiment into an assault task. Even though the C&C lines show the normal channels, 3 of about 5 regimental assets (not including FJ Bn’s) have been put under direct control of ll FJ Bn which is leading the attack. This is perfectly logical, and I assume within German doctrine-so no complaint there. The down side to this is that the beefed up FJ Bn, which has a command capacity of 5, now has a current load of 8. How bad of a drag on the operation this causes, I don’t know-but this particular attack did get underway in a reasonable time.

 
Dave, can you elaborate on this? Specifically I am interested in knowing the problems that arise due to the fact that the beefed up FJ Bn, which has a command capacity of 5, now has a current load of 8. Is the orders delay going to be increased substantially? Are we going to notice the increase in the orders delay in the execution of the initial attack plan? Or we are going to notice that increase in the orders delay only if the plan has to be reassessed due to problems in the attack?
 
Txema

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

(I don't add tomato juice to SP)

Thank you !
You might want to try some Erdinger or Paulaner Weissbier too....
Or some "Kölsch", beer from Cologne, my hometown [:D]
See if u can find some beer from the town Budwar, Czech. That stuff is very good, and it shouldn't be mixed up with the american broth Budweiser, hehe, since it just shares a part of the name ........ it's several leagues above Budweiser, quality-wise, for sure[8D]

[Helpless]

...to keep a real college atmosphere we also need to discuss chicks... [:D]

Btw, Czech beer is named after town Budvar..

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: Txema
Is the orders delay going to be increased substantially? Are we going to notice the increase in the orders delay in the execution of the initial attack plan? Or we are going to notice that increase in the orders delay only if the plan has to be reassessed due to problems in the attack?

The short answer is Yes orders delay will be increased for the current attack and subsequent reasessments/replans. The ordersDelay algorythm is quite long and I don't want to bore or scare you with a rendition of it. Many factors impact the delay. Staff Efficiency is just one of them. StaffEfficiency = staffQuality * overloadMod. The overloadMod is a value between 25% and 100%. If staffLoad <= staff Capacity then overloadMod = 100%. If staffLoad >= staffCapacity * 2, then the overloadMod = 25%. Else, staffLoad > staffCapacity but < staffCapacity * 2, then it is pro rata'd between 25% and 100%. In your example the overloadMod = 55%.

However, if the staffQuality of the FJ Bn was high it might not have such a noticeable effect. Further, if the units are very close to each other ( and they often are when attacking ) then this would further reduce the delay.

[06 Maestro]

Good Guy

I can assure you I have tried many different brands of German beer. It was one of my highest priorities during two long visits to your wonderful country. From Kiel to Garmish Partenkirchen (my favorite hang out), and from Bad Krueznach to Graffenwere (please excuse my place name spelling-it’s been 20 years since I was there).

The beer that I had on a scheduled delivery, (1 case every Thursday- Mainz area) was Binding Pills, too bad I could not find it on my last trip there in ‘85/86. I suppose corporate take-over have affected Germany’s beer industry.

I’ll have to check on the Czech brew, not sure if it is available in the stores here. I did acquire a couple of cases of Czech brew a few years ago from a beer show-it was quite good (don’t recall the name).

Ahh, so I now have one added task for my next day off, buy some Spaten.
I think I’ll buy one of those fancy COTA steins to enjoy it in. I’m leery of using my Hofbrauhaus stein during gaming-to dangerous and possibly distracting.

As for chicks; my wife likes a brew called Groelsh (something like that). She has never been to Germany, but of German decent and keen on some things German.

[Real and Simulated Wars]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
The short answer is Yes orders delay will be increased for the current attack and subsequent reasessments/replans. The ordersDelay algorythm is quite long and I don't want to bore or scare you with a rendition of it. Many factors impact the delay. Staff Efficiency is just one of them. StaffEfficiency = staffQuality * overloadMod. The overloadMod is a value between 25% and 100%. If staffLoad <= staff Capacity then overloadMod = 100%. If staffLoad >= staffCapacity * 2, then the overloadMod = 25%. Else, staffLoad > staffCapacity but < staffCapacity * 2, then it is pro rata'd between 25% and 100%. In your example the overloadMod = 55%.

However, if the staffQuality of the FJ Bn was high it might not have such a noticeable effect. Further, if the units are very close to each other ( and they often are when attacking ) then this would further reduce the delay.

Dave,
Can we always trust in the force delay value as a guideline?

Julio

[MarkShot]

I've stated this in the Mini-Guides ... something to remember is that a force delay field value is only valid after the first complete propagation of order delays has taken place for the force.

So, if you typically form your forces at the start of a scenario, then these force values can be very useful for planning during the remainder of the scenario. However, if you frequently alter your forces, then the numbers are useless for predictive purposes. My Point: They are not instantaneously updated.

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: Chelco
Can we always trust in the force delay value as a guideline?

No they are estimates only. By the time the orders are recceived by a unit down the line it's efficiency and effectiveness values may have changed ( eg it may now be suppressed ).

[MarkShot]

A generally good rule of thumb is that despite whatever you think you understand about the game mechanics:

(1) Armored attacks over open ground planned to benefit from ranged fire will kick off in the middle of the night in rain and fog.

(2) Movement of troops planned to take place at night to avoid spotting and enemy barrages will kick off just as the sun comes up.

And that is why the UI setting is called "painfully realistic" as opposed to simply "max delays".

[Arjuna]

[:D]