Is the AI too dumb?

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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Rogue188
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Is the AI too dumb?

Post by Rogue188 »

I have been wondering, is the AI too dumb or perhaps too limited? I am playing the Dec 8th campaign and noticed in the tracker that I had killed the Zuikaku with a mine in Singapore. I thought that was very odd and switch over to the Japanese side and saw that it was damaged, but not sunk. Damaging the carrier seemed correct, but its movement did not. Why would a carrier task force be sent to the Singapore hex? That seems way too dangerous even with the ships and planes having been wiped out.

I also checked on Manila and Clark Field. Both bases have been attacked by the AI for over two weeks with every attack repulsed. I am losing supply quickly, but the Japanese have more than enough firepower to take the bases. I looked at one of the bases behind the front lines and saw over a dozen artillery and armor units just sitting there!

I don't understand the scripting of the game, but is the AI actually using these forces correctly? Is everything just happening under the hood on the AI side and it doesn't display well when a player looks?
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Yaab
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Re: Is the AI too dumb?

Post by Yaab »

A carrier reacting into Singapore sounds like an old AI script.

I have a scen001 game vs Jap AI Normal difficulty on hold.
In the SCEN folder, there is the AI file.
My AI file looks like this:

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Last edited by Yaab on Sun May 12, 2024 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BananaConvention
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Re: Is the AI too dumb?

Post by BananaConvention »

It's not dumb, it's scripted. It doesn't have the fidelity for enjoyable long-term play. I used it to learn basic game mechanics and immediately switched to PBEMs after and I'll never go back.
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Platoonist
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Re: Is the AI too dumb?

Post by Platoonist »

In almost every game I've played versus the Japanese AI it's lost a cruiser while triumphantly sailing into Manila Bay after the fall of Bataan due to the large US minefield there.

However, the Japanese AI is head and shoulders above the Allied AI which often doesn't seem to know what to do with all that material bounty it eventually receives.

So, unless you play very conservatively PBEM is your best bet for a challenging opponent.
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Rogue188
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Re: Is the AI too dumb?

Post by Rogue188 »

I have had this game for probably over 10 years and I always think "this time I will actually play through the campaign." I like the fact that production is set, and everything is reinforced. So I don't have to worry about saving money to buy a carrier or 40 destroyers. The only thing that has really stopped me is the fact that the AI seems to do some really dumb things.
GetAssista
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Re: Is the AI too dumb?

Post by GetAssista »

AI is not the sharpest tool in the shed by far, yeah. You still can have an enjoyable campaing against it if you set yourself some limitations. In the end the purpose is to have fun, not to win by any means
Rogue188
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Re: Is the AI too dumb?

Post by Rogue188 »

I just remembered something. Didn't AndyMac do some additional work on the AI scripting? I thought there used to be a list if scenarios where there were multiple AI options that would be randomly selected when the scenario was first loaded. Do those files still exist?
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Platoonist
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Re: Is the AI too dumb?

Post by Platoonist »

Rogue188 wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 11:07 pm I just remembered something. Didn't AndyMac do some additional work on the AI scripting? I thought there used to be a list if scenarios where there were multiple AI options that would be randomly selected when the scenario was first loaded. Do those files still exist?
Actually, the AI has always had multiple aei file sets it can randomly choose from. I seem to remember AndyMac's later AI script work required you to delete (or move) all those files to make absolutely sure his would be the only one picked by the AI at the start of a campaign game. Or as he put it...
Andy Mac wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:17 pmAt present the new AI file has NO variants and therefore will not overwrite the existing files so you need to delete them or you wont be using the latest files.
His files are still available on this thread--

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 8&t=340021
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BBfanboy
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Re: Is the AI too dumb?

Post by BBfanboy »

Rather than delete the old scripts, just rename the file extension to .old which can be reversed of course.
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Re: Is the AI too dumb?

Post by RangerJoe »

BBfanboy wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 12:22 am Rather than delete the old scripts, just rename the file extension to .old which can be reversed of course.
That is true, then a player can go back and change the script from .old* to make it active. A player could then go through each script that way. After playing each script, a person could possibly modify the scripts if they want to in order to challenge other players.
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Timotheus
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Re: Is the AI too dumb?

Post by Timotheus »

First and foremost, this is not AI.

These are a series of scripts, which run independent of user actions.


Now.... I for one am very very very VERY much looking forward to REAL AI taking over as my opponent in WITPAE.

This will happen within 1-2 years, tops.
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Re: Is the AI too dumb?

Post by Sardaukar »

There is what I'd call "tactical AI" which works independently from scripts. E.g. enemy land forces will react adjacent enemy land forces.

But it's very rudimentary and all operational "decisions" are made by scripts.

Would be interesting if recent development in AI generally could be taught to make good "AI scripts" for game.
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Re: Is the AI too dumb?

Post by Platoonist »

Sardaukar wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 7:49 am Would be interesting if recent development in AI generally could be taught to make good "AI scripts" for game.
I'm no expert on the subject, but over on the general discussion forum the developer for Empire in Arms sure seemed to throw cold water on the idea that recent incarnations of AI have much to offer for this type of gaming.
pzgndr wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:47 pm I am amused. Like, sure, I can just plug in ChatGPT to generate a challenging computer opponent for Empires in Arms. I've been working on the AI for years to help make it more challenging. Lately, I've been working on grand strategy options for the AI. Absolutely none of this stuff is trivial. If it was easy, anybody could do it. I literally LOL whenever I read about AI hype in the news. When I stop laughing, I get back to code development...
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Rogue188
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Re: Is the AI too dumb?

Post by Rogue188 »

How does the scripting work? Is it "attack Port Morsby at all costs until captured?" or more like ships A, B, and C will attack Port Morsby but if they are damaged, sunk, or forced to withdraw, then nothing will ever attack Port Morsby again? Or maybe if X amount of ships or troops are lost attacking Port Morsby then the attack will be canceled? Some sort of mixture?
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Platoonist
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Re: Is the AI too dumb?

Post by Platoonist »

Rogue188 wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 12:45 am How does the scripting work? Is it "attack Port Morsby at all costs until captured?" or more like ships A, B, and C will attack Port Morsby but if they are damaged, sunk, or forced to withdraw, then nothing will ever attack Port Morsby again? Or maybe if X amount of ships or troops are lost attacking Port Morsby then the attack will be canceled? Some sort of mixture?

As I basically understand it in an AI script you have a list of hundreds of bases and units which the code works through with some lists being dependent upon success of completion of other lists first and then some lists being independent. Then you have a list of units assigned to take or defend those bases. If the listed units tasked to take a base are eventually lost and no suitable replacements are available, the attempt is terminated at some point.
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Andy Mac
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Re: Is the AI too dumb?

Post by Andy Mac »

basically yes or a date or a completion base is captured by another script
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Re: Is the AI too dumb?

Post by PaxMondo »

Andy Mac wrote: Thu May 23, 2024 6:35 pm basically yes or a date or a completion base is captured by another script
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Sardaukar
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Re: Is the AI too dumb?

Post by Sardaukar »

Scripts can be effective.

Plans within plans.
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Rogue188
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Re: Is the AI too dumb?

Post by Rogue188 »

I have almost tied my personal game record of Apil 1942 in the grand campaign. However, I do find myself disappointed. This is no knock against AndyMac and the other designers who have done an amazing job with the resources available, but I find my frustration with the computer's actions against Port Morsby annoying. I lost Milne Bay, ok, its ahistorical but I can accept that. However, I created a quick reaction surface force to defend Port Morsby and have them stationed in Townsville. Every week or so another Japanese force arrives to invade, but my troops hold them off while the surface action TF destroys the Japanese invasion force. I don't know how many ships I have sunk at this point, but just deleting TF after TF is not fun. There are no significant escorts, no carriers to establish air superiority, just unescorted invasion fleets trying to sneak in.

I understand that this is not a historical simulator of WWII, otherwise everyone would know exactly what is going to happen. From what I am seeing, the Japanese AI is given the benefit of the real Japan's mistakes and aggressively moves into the Pacific to try and take bases before the Allied player is ready. While this makes total sense, the way in which the AI attacks is far too limited. I just can't imagine a real life scenario where a major invasion force would do something with little to no support. Plus, if I actually read the intel and prepare, I can wipe everything out without too much trouble. The sad joke is that is has also made me lazy with invasions as I just don't expect any real threat from the AI. Don't get me wrong I have been bitten by this, but it is why I have been so off and on with this game. I love the potential and the scope, but I think the AI is just too limited.
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Re: Is the AI too dumb?

Post by RangerJoe »

That is why many players play PBEM.
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