Smolensk 41 - messed up by update?

[CaptainKoloth]

Hello everyone:

About two years ago I played the Smolensk 41 scenario as the Axis as there was a good tutorial for it. It seemed reasonably well balanced.

I tried playing it again this week and the Soviets just annihilate me. I don't mean just that I lose, but that without fail, on turn 2, the Soviets attack again and again such that about 70% of my forces evaporate and I'm left with just a few battered units. When I played this previously, the Soviets maybe attacked two or three times and then the turn went back to me. I've tried this five times and gotten about the same result every time. I haven't changed anything on my end;. I'm on all default settings.

Have there been any updates or changes via patch that might have affected this scenario? Has anyone else played it recently? If there was a change, it seems to have broken the scenario's balance. My concern for balance isn't that one side is stronger than the other- obviously historically that happens all the time- but that this is a very different behavior than when I played the scenario previously.

[Cpl GAC]

My bet is it's an older scenario and TOAW IV rules and historical scholarship have improved significantly.

For example; those German troops weren't there yet;

3.7.1941.jpg (263.09 KiB) Viewed 990 times

I cannot find those three Soviet tank divisions in Glantz's works, and the 30th Army wasn't really formed yet and there were not that many KVs and T-34s on the whole front.

Look at Road to Moscow II Smolensk if you want to play that campaign.

[CaptainKoloth]

Thanks! I guess I'm asking a much more specific question though. I'm not questioning the scenario design or the best way to play Smolensk; rather that I played it before and now I'm getting a radically different AI behavior, suggesting something changed perhaps in a patch that I'm trying to understand inasmuch as it may also affect other scenarios.

[Cpl GAC]

I think it's the improved TOAW IV engine on an older scenario. The scenario was created a while ago. One turn and I got my butt kicked as Gerry - PO settings - Strong and None.

Tried again - - Strong and +2 - dug in as Gerry just to get to turn 3 - butt kicked

Tried again - tried to swing north - saved my pieces. Not sure why I'm retreating a Pz Corp in July 1941 and the only supply point is up there in AGN land...

Those 3 Soviet tank divisions are monsters.

[CaptainKoloth]

I think it's the improved TOAW IV engine on an older scenario. The scenario was created a while ago. One turn and I got my butt kicked as Gerry - PO settings - Strong and None.

Tried again - - Strong and +2 - dug in as Gerry just to get to turn 3 - butt kicked

Tried again - tried to swing north - saved my pieces. Not sure why I'm retreating a Pz Corp in July 1941 and the only supply point is up there in AGN land...

Those 3 Soviet tank divisions are monsters.

Yeah that's what I was getting at. When I played it maybe 18 months ago I got a more "expected" historical outcome where the Soviets put up some spirited resistance, but ultimately crumbled fairly quick. Some recent patch has drastically strengthened the Soviet behavior somehow.

[rhinobones]

Just a guess, but you might try re-setting the Advanced Rules.

Regards

Smolensk 41.JPG (340.92 KiB) Viewed 962 times

[Zardoz02]

I tried playing it again this week and the Soviets just annihilate me. I don't mean just that I lose, but that without fail, on turn 2, the Soviets attack again and again such that about 70% of my forces evaporate and I'm left with just a few battered units.

Just a confirmation - I'm getting the same kind of result. It's a bit of a nuisance because there is a useful beginner's tutorial document ( https://drive.google.com/file/d/11GMVwu ... uvvWn/view ) floating around in cyberspace that uses this scenario. The document suggests that the Germans should do *much* better than they actually do.

It's not the end of the world since I can play around with "dig in" and defend commands.

But it does look like *something* has seriously changed after that document was written in 2019.

[CaptainKoloth]

I tried playing it again this week and the Soviets just annihilate me. I don't mean just that I lose, but that without fail, on turn 2, the Soviets attack again and again such that about 70% of my forces evaporate and I'm left with just a few battered units.

Just a confirmation - I'm getting the same kind of result. It's a bit of a nuisance because there is a useful beginner's tutorial document ( https://drive.google.com/file/d/11GMVwu ... uvvWn/view ) floating around in cyberspace that uses this scenario. The document suggests that the Germans should do *much* better than they actually do.

It's not the end of the world since I can play around with "dig in" and defend commands.

But it does look like *something* has seriously changed after that document was written in 2019.

Yes- exactly. That tutorial was actually why I was trying to figure this out in the first place. I can't figure out what patch or other change happened after that that would have changed it.

[Cpl GAC]

The Soviets have an insanely unrealistic overage of tanks. I think as the game engine continued/continues to be fine-tuned to reflect individual equipment capabilities the original scenarios lose their playability.

Case in point; In this battle, the Soviets have more T35s than they made in total, and more T34s and KV1 then were probably available in the Soviet Union at that date. Those tank divisions punch like it's early 1943.

[rhinobones]

You might want to give “Road to Moscow II Smolensk” a try. About the same number of turns and appears to be a better designed scenario.

Regards

[altipueri]

In order to put off doing my tax return I have played the first few turns of this scenario on TOAW4, TOAW3, and TOAW-CW (Century of Warfare).


I did miles better on the old CW version - so much so that I think I'll use it more often.

[governato]

I agree with RB that the Road to Smolensk is one of the best designed set of scenarios and updated to TOAW4 (not just ported)

[Ranger6]

I agree with RB that the Road to Smolensk is one of the best designed set of scenarios and updated to TOAW4 (not just ported)

Thanks very much, rhinobones and governato, for the kind words of encouragement. I have made several updates to the To Road to Moscow series, probably buried in the updates folder, including a 1941 .eqp, kindly from the FITE contributors, map updates, and David Glantz's recent books.
I still go back to vs. po, especially "What if?"
Regards

[Darrell999]

I created the Smolensk '41 scenario for TOAW way back in 1999-2000. It's actually a conversion of SPI's Panzergruppe Guderian from 1976, designed by James F. Dunnigan. In retrospect, I should have included that in the notes, but it just didn't occur to me at the time; I was just excited to convert this classic boardgame to the computer, so I could play it.
So everything, including the OOB, was based on the boardgame (I had the Strategy & Tactics magazine version).
I agree with the other posters that Road to Moscow II Smolensk is the better scenario with a more accurate OOB.

[rhinobones]

I created the Smolensk '41 scenario for TOAW way back in 1999-2000. It's actually a conversion of SPI's Panzergruppe Guderian from 1976, designed by James F. Dunnigan.

One of our old timers, I love it. Appreciate that you built the scenario based on the original paper game. Always nice to have the old favorites converted to the TOAW format. As I recall a Veliky Luki scenario was also built from the v4v game. If someone wanted to tweak your scenario and post it as an update, would you give permission?

Also, if you ever get the urge to practice your editing skills, the community will always enjoy having another scenario to play.

Best Regards, RhinoBones

[Darrell999]

If someone wanted to tweak your scenario and post it as an update, would you give permission?

Also, if you ever get the urge to practice your editing skills, the community will always enjoy having another scenario to play.

Best Regards, RhinoBones

Permission enthusiastically granted, absolutely! Especially now that I see that there seems to be an imbalance. I don't recall that from back when it was first playtested, but that was for the first version of TOAW.
And thanks for the encouragement, I appreciate that. As for creating more scenarios, I think it might be fun to do that again.

[CaptainKoloth]

I really appreciate all the conversation, but the irony is no one ever addressed the original question I was getting at of what changed in the game engine

[Cpl GAC]

OG Darrell999 on the thread! (OG - noun, slang - someone or something that is an original or originator and especially one that is highly respected or regarded).

Cpt K - when you played 2 years ago was it TOAW4 or one of the earlier versions? Section 19.2 in the manual briefly touches on TOAW 4 versus older versions.

[CaptainKoloth]

OG Darrell999 on the thread! (OG - noun, slang - someone or something that is an original or originator and especially one that is highly respected or regarded).

Cpt K - when you played 2 years ago was it TOAW4 or one of the earlier versions? Section 19.2 in the manual briefly touches on TOAW 4 versus older versions.

It was 4. As per the above, I was following the tutorial guide written for 4 that uses this scenario as a basis.

[Darrell999]

OG Darrell999 on the thread! (OG - noun, slang - someone or something that is an original or originator and especially one that is highly respected or regarded).

Cpt K - when you played 2 years ago was it TOAW4 or one of the earlier versions? Section 19.2 in the manual briefly touches on TOAW 4 versus older versions.

It was 4. As per the above, I was following the tutorial guide written for 4 that uses this scenario as a basis.

As far as I know, the current version is still 4.1.0.40, since December of 2019. Could it be that the last time you played may have actually been before that, maybe? I know in my experience that the older I get, the faster time seems to go!
Otherwise, I agree, that's a mystery to me also why it would be different from two years ago. Bob Cross would be the one who might know.
As mentioned above, if anyone wants to make changes to the Smolensk '41 scenario, please do and post it; that would be fine with me.
But I know that isn't your point, CaptainKoloth.
If anyone else can shed some light on the balance change within the last couple of years, please give your thoughts.
And thanks, Cpl GAC!