What to do about this 'dastardly' situation?

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AshFall
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What to do about this 'dastardly' situation?

Post by AshFall »

Sooo... this is my second game of SC2:ww1 ever, though I later started more that are also ongoing.

I'm posting this in an attempt to learn something from the game aside from dealing with pointlessness and frustration. So, here goes.

It's been a thorough and rough humiliation from the first couple of turns. A montenegro gambit with the collapse of Serbia, Montenegro and Albania by december 1914, followed by denial of italy and thus the establishment of a "force field" that protects Germany from direct attack other than by DoW of minors in the Low countries or Italy. Also of course the narrow front vs France.

Through various nasty and effective tricks such as mine placement and early blockade of the canada port that sends the convoy british income was very low for far too long, and greece was attacked and slaughtered by insurmountable forces early.

Somehow my opponent has kept up relentless agression throughout the game, never giving me room to tech or regain my footing.

Despite having had 60% chance per turn of swaying belgium diplomatically for a long time it has moved only very little, stuck at 33% for a while now. My opponent has not bothered to counter the diplomacy.

Once Russia was completely neutered by the slaughter of its armies and fall of it's NM to very low, my opponent simply switched fronts and is now mowing through the narrow gap in France supported by 4-5 artillery pieces, superior inf tech and mobility tech.

What the hell to do? Lots I could have done earlier I suppose, like retreat sooner, know all the nasty tricks and how to counter them etc, but that's all moot.

How do you counter mass artillery on a narrow front like this? What to do -now- aside from just watching and losing?





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OldCrowBalthazor
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RE: What to do about this **** situation?

Post by OldCrowBalthazor »

Gamey eXploitive Crap. Nothing you can do about it.

The Montenegro Gambit never got fixed properly. Just the Russian 'Squeeze Play" part of the package. Seems any swinging dick finds the Montenegro Gambit tests and uses this eXploit on new players. These tests were done by numerous people to help convince the dev's to fix this. There are many elegant solutions for this..but the best way at this time is to house rule the first turn operation of German units by selling research chits out...

I would walk away and find someone who is a sportsman. The person your playing has is basically a juvenile. Actually, I have harsher words for these types, but I will control myself here.

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AshFall
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RE: What to do about this **** situation?

Post by AshFall »

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Gamey eXploitive Crap. Nothing you can do about it.

The Montenegro Gambit never got fixed properly. Just the Russian 'Squeeze Play" part of the package. Seems any swinging dick finds the Montenegro Gambit tests and uses this eXploit on new players. These tests were done by numerous people to help convince the dev's to fix this. There are many elegant solutions for this..but the best way at this time is to house rule the first turn operation of German units by selling research chits out...

I would walk away and find someone who is a sportsman. The person your playing has is basically a juvenile. Actually, I have harsher words for these types, but I will control myself here.


Hey, thank you for the reply! :)

On the Montenegro "Gambit"

I'll admit I used this myself against my oft-time opponent Will in my AAR here on the forums, thinking it was fixed after the patch mentioned in the Montenegro thread. It does seem the "multiple conquest" bonus is a lot weaker. Or, well, it might not be and I'm just not very good at using the strat (no wonder). I have no reference point after all.

I ran a test against Bavre with the strategy just recently, and he clearly had the upper hand after 1914 as the Entente, though that might have been mostly my fumbling of the strategy (being rather new).

Bavre seems to think it's fine as is, and it may well be on high levels of play where both players are very good. With even a little mishandling of the Russians or Brits though it does create a very bad situation for the Entente.

Is it general consensus that it is still broken? If so I certainly wont use it this way again, and will be playing with the house rule not to redeem the first turn tech chits. Is the general consensus that it's allright if the armies are operated to Serbia using 2nd turn Mpps?

Generally about this match

In this game in particular it's a lot of compounding factors, a lot of it is the use of several of those nasty tricks (such as the immediate sending of destroyers and submarines to canada before the UK joins the war) that I wasnt aware of and couldnt counter properly.

Also just trying to fight too much and getting destroyed, not so much due to bonuses from conquests but just because of pure mass.

Before he started the attack on France he'd taken significantly more losses mpp wise, about 29k losses to the Entene 26k losses. He has more income over the course of the game. Losses have mounted at about equal pace, now 30k for the Entente and 33k for the Central Powers.

Basically he just seems to know his strat outside and in, and has gone for crushing Russias army so he could redeploy the entire german army to the west while building up to 5 arty pieces he is concentrating in the narrow gap to France.

Those 5 pieces + Mobility on his troops and superior inf weapons just massacres me, and I cant reach the guns to kill them.

The issue is also that since he's been slaughtering me constantly I havent been able to tech up particularly, and I also seem to be getting really unlucky with the diplomatic game.

So I just dont quite know what to do about the short front+mobility tech+4-5 artillery pieces.

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RE: What to do about this **** situation?

Post by OldCrowBalthazor »

Nice write up.[8D]
Is the general consensus that it's allright if the armies are operated to Serbia using 2nd turn Mpps?

Yes, I used the Montenegro Gambit before..later in the 1914 or 1915...last year before this 1st turn research chit selling and operating tactic became known and used. Doing that on the first turn is an eXploit. Anytime after is by definition a gambit. A gambit should be risky but with high rewards if successful. Doing the 1st turn operating in mass German troops to storm Cetinje on the second round is an eXploit. There really isn't anything the Entente player can do to counter it and basically NO risk to the CP player.

I don't know what the "general consensus' is, because there are different groups that play these types of games for a variety of reasons. I do agree with your statement 'all right if the armies operated to Serbia using 2nd turn MMPs.'

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Sigizmund
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RE: What to do about this **** situation?

Post by Sigizmund »

Oh you making me so proud :3 you just got unlucky with belgium that's true. Montenegro gambit isn't such OP like in the last patch (and probably should be renamed to Serbian gambit) with support of 3 german corps and 1 KUK cav you still have chance to hold serbia if you send 1 french army as soon as possible and delay CP at Pec-Nish line but remember if you haven't had time to hold with french support at least all montenegro + albania,
or Cetinje + albania + uskub you have to think about evacuation. Also you must make stand at Greece to keep it convoys it easy to make good stand at 2 mountains near Athens and in Patras town.
About eastern first strategy counter there is 2 ways my opponents choice: 1st is embrace slaughter at both fronts and make all in attack with France and Russia so CP will have no chance to heal all corps every turn.
2nd and more safe is slow russian retreat, stand in balkans and diplomacy on Norway and Belgium with western Entente tech rush. Keep in mind that after last patch to surround russians CP need to cut Minsk-Brest + Kiev-Kovno railways AND capture Warsaw so it very hard to do all the same time before winter.
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RE: What to do about this **** situation?

Post by AshFall »

ORIGINAL: Sigizmund

Also you must make stand at Greece to keep it convoys it easy to make good stand at 2 mountains near Athens and in Patras town.
About eastern first strategy counter there is 2 ways my opponents choice: 1st is embrace slaughter at both fronts and make all in attack with France and Russia so CP will have no chance to heal all corps every turn.
2nd and more safe is slow russian retreat, stand in balkans and diplomacy on Norway and Belgium with western Entente tech rush. Keep in mind that after last patch to surround russians CP need to cut Minsk-Brest + Kiev-Kovno railways AND capture Warsaw so it very hard to do all the same time before winter.

Yeah, figured something like that, but as for our current game all that's rather moot at this point. A lot of it came down to being my 2nd game and never having seen many of the things you were doing before.

Though I do think the dash to Canada while Britain is forced neutral is quite underhanded, it's counterable to some extent as long as you do it immediately and know it might be coming.

I'm thoroughly annoyed at the way this particular game has let you leverage mechanics and pure MPP weight to just grind through everything, not sure what can be done about that sort of thing with all of the gambits you employed combined.

Still, is there an intended counter to massing artillery like that? If so, what?

Air-power to strike at the arty in the back ranks? Tanks rolling up to break the line?

A non issue regardless, seeing as the "grind them down with mpps" approach denies creative teching.
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RE: What to do about this **** situation?

Post by AshFall »

ORIGINAL: Sigizmund

...Montenegro gambit isn't such OP like in the last patch (and probably should be renamed to Serbian gambit) with support of 3 german corps and 1 KUK cav you still have chance to hold serbia if you send 1 french army as soon as possible and delay CP at Pec-Nish line but remember if you haven't had time to hold with french support at least all montenegro + albania,
or Cetinje + albania + uskub you have to think about evacuation. Also you must make stand at Greece to keep it convoys it easy to make good stand at 2 mountains near Athens and in Patras town.

While this may be the case, I am currently playing three games as the Entente out of three total (In SC:2) ever.

Every single one of those are against a "montenegro exploit".

Regardless of renaming, there is a difference between railing in Germans to go hard and early for Montenegro/Albania to deny the Entente any chance to respond, and railing in Germans to aid in the overall attack on Serbia.

If doing the former and attacking Montenegro in force on turn 2 and Albania on turn 3, the Entente cannot respond with troops. There are no troops (except the British 5str garrisons that wont make a difference) to be shipped in on the first turn, the fastest you can do is 2nd turn, and by then there are no ports embark to.

I think that is the remaining exploit, aside from perhaps the conquest bonuses still being too strong, shutting down the entiriety of the Balkan theatre with no chance for the Entente to respond in 1914.
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Sigizmund
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RE: What to do about this **** situation?

Post by Sigizmund »

Best conter against enemy arty is your own arty. Even if you have less battaries you can use detachment to prevent enemy from any even 1 hex advance (this how player sapara was beating me in every game). Tanks is good only with mobility techs at least i find that so. I haven't seen air power be decisive.
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RE: What to do about this **** situation?

Post by Sigizmund »

ORIGINAL: AshFall


While this may be the case, I am currently playing three games as the Entente out of three total (In SC:2) ever.

Every single one of those are against a "montenegro exploit".

Regardless of renaming, there is a difference between railing in Germans to go hard and early for Montenegro/Albania to deny the Entente any chance to respond, and railing in Germans to aid in the overall attack on Serbia.

If doing the former and attacking Montenegro in force on turn 2 and Albania on turn 3, the Entente cannot respond with troops. There are no troops (except the British 5str garrisons that wont make a difference) to be shipped in on the first turn, the fastest you can do is 2nd turn, and by then there are no ports embark to.

I think that is the remaining exploit, aside from perhaps the conquest bonuses still being too strong, shutting down the entiriety of the Balkan theatre with no chance for the Entente to respond in 1914.

But i haven't used germans to attack montenegro i used them to throw them over serbia. Old way Montenegro gambit after last patched i saw only once as Entente player and it was disaster for CP. Even 7 germans corps wasn't enough to crash montenegro
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RE: What to do about this **** situation?

Post by AshFall »

ORIGINAL: Sigizmund

But i haven't used germans to attack montenegro i used them to throw them over serbia. Old way Montenegro gambit after last patched i saw only once as Entente player and it was disaster for CP. Even 7 germans corps wasn't enough to crash montenegro

Cant remember exact details now unfortunately, I really wish there was a "replay" feature to go over finished games. If nothing else, just snapshots of the end of each players turn would be enough, doesnt even have to be movement.

Though I'm fairly certain Montenegro was dead by turn 2 or 3, followed by Albania. I had British and French corps ready to go, but the situation made sending them untenable.
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RE: What to do about this **** situation?

Post by AshFall »

ORIGINAL: Sigizmund

Best conter against enemy arty is your own arty. Even if you have less battaries you can use detachment to prevent enemy from any even 1 hex advance (this how player sapara was beating me in every game). Tanks is good only with mobility techs at least i find that so. I haven't seen air power be decisive.

Do you mean backing away 1 hex at a time, re-entrenching each time?
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RE: What to do about this **** situation?

Post by Sigizmund »

ORIGINAL: AshFall




Cant remember exact details now unfortunately, I really wish there was a "replay" feature to go over finished games. If nothing else, just snapshots of the end of each players turn would be enough, doesnt even have to be movement.

Though I'm fairly certain Montenegro was dead by turn 2 or 3, followed by Albania. I had British and French corps ready to go, but the situation made sending them untenable.

probably Pec fall at 2nd-3rd turn but not the capital.
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RE: What to do about this **** situation?

Post by Bavre »

Ok boys, I think I have to chip in here:

The strategy Sigimund employed here is NO EXPLOIT and has nothing to do with the original M-gambit as demonstrated by OldCrow and me back in the day. Parts of it just look kind of similar.
Ashfall and I already did a testgame where he tried to use Sigizmunds strategy against me and while it is a good overall plan, it's impact can in no way compare to the M-gambits exploitiness.
For comparison, when I discovered the gambit, I was a relative noob with little more MP XP than Ashfall has now. The gambit enabled me to effortlessly walk over players with dozends of MP games and thousends of game hours under their belt. To be clear, everyone of them wanted me to do that, either to try to counter it or maybe because some like it rough [:D]. So they knew 100% what was coming and yet every game was decided in no more than 5-6 turns. And there was really no skill involved, it just made CP so powerfull so quickly, a spikey helmeted chimp could have won the match.
Now you can still do a turn 2 Cetinje, sure. But it won't kill Montenegro and the force you used to do it will be bottled up along the coast plus the convoy will immediately switch to its backup. Also Russias big Achilles heel, the supply routes to Poland, have been shored up with primary supply in Warsaw. So none of the devastating effects I used back then will trigger any more, even if the movement of the units on the map looks kind of similar.
A Russia first combined with a strong push in the Balkans is a strong strategy, you have to understand it and act accordingly to counter it, and even with the "right" reaction it can go either way. BUT it is no effortless autowin like the M-gambit was.

Oh, and about the late game artillery: that's basically normal lategame. The only thing that can counter it is your own artillery combined with good air recon. Trenches, cannons and shells are the three top techs to get.
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RE: What to do about this **** situation?

Post by OldCrowBalthazor »

ORIGINAL: Bavre

Ok boys, I think I have to chip in here:

The strategy Sigimund employed here is NO EXPLOIT and has nothing to do with the original M-gambit as demonstrated by OldCrow and me back in the day. Parts of it just look kind of similar.
Ashfall and I already did a testgame where he tried to use Sigizmunds strategy against me and while it is a good overall plan, it's impact can in no way compare to the M-gambits exploitiness.
For comparison, when I discovered the gambit, I was a relative noob with little more MP XP than Ashfall has now. The gambit enabled me to effortlessly walk over players with dozends of MP games and thousends of game hours under their belt. To be clear, everyone of them wanted me to do that, either to try to counter it or maybe because some like it rough [:D]. So they knew 100% what was coming and yet every game was decided in no more than 5-6 turns. And there was really no skill involved, it just made CP so powerfull so quickly, a spikey helmeted chimp could have won the match.
Now you can still do a turn 2 Cetinje, sure. But it won't kill Montenegro and the force you used to do it will be bottled up along the coast plus the convoy will immediately switch to its backup. Also Russias big Achilles heel, the supply routes to Poland, have been shored up with primary supply in Warsaw. So none of the devastating effects I used back then will trigger any more, even if the movement of the units on the map looks kind of similar.
A Russia first combined with a strong push in the Balkans is a strong strategy, you have to understand it and act accordingly to counter it, and even with the "right" reaction it can go either way. BUT it is no effortless autowin like the M-gambit was.

Oh, and about the late game artillery: that's basically normal lategame. The only thing that can counter it is your own artillery combined with good air recon. Trenches, cannons and shells are the three top techs to get.
Well...glad we got that straightened out.....
Man..I turned into a "chimp wearing the spikey helmet" when I read this post as another iteration of the M-Gambit.

OK...I will slink back to my den of iniquity...and not come out till I get more data on any eXploit accusation.

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AshFall
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RE: What to do about this **** situation?

Post by AshFall »

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Well...glad we got that straightened out.....
Man..I turned into a "chimp wearing the spikey helmet" when I read this post as another iteration of the M-Gambit.

OK...I will slink back to my den of iniquity...and not come out till I get more data on any eXploit accusation.

Image

If it's any consolation, the Jury is still out about this one as far as I am concerned.

I've refined the gambit so that I -think- it allows cutting off Serbia from any aid turn 3 by conquering Albania and taking Cetinje. There is nothing the Entente can do to save Serbia. Given the best possible defence (as far as I can see from testing) It will fall sometime December 14-March 15 depending. Earlier if the defense if even slightly bungled.

It also allows the secure defense of Eastern Germany and Galicia, and turning onto the offensive as the year turns. Starting 1915 Germany should have free hands to devote loving attention to Russia, get the aid of Bulgaria and help the Ottomans if they need it.

Also, ceding trento and Trieste is viable since Austria hasnt lost anything else and goes on the offensive in the east, taking some wind out of the Entente Diplo game and refusing that front to the western Entente.

For that reason, and the "force fields" erected around Germany by the Low countries and neutral Italy, I think it might still be broken. If only because there is no counterplay as far as I can see, if done correctly.

It does carry the following downsides:
France and Britain are left alone to do what they will. DoW the Low countries (savage NM hits and free units for the CP), attack Mesopotamia or Palestine with whatever they like, ready aid to Greece.

Germany starts out with lesser tech investments than usual, but should catch up given conquests and Bulgaria soon enough.
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RE: What to do about this **** situation?

Post by Bavre »

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor
ORIGINAL: Bavre

Ok boys, I think I have to chip in here:

The strategy Sigimund employed here is NO EXPLOIT and has nothing to do with the original M-gambit as demonstrated by OldCrow and me back in the day. Parts of it just look kind of similar.
Ashfall and I already did a testgame where he tried to use Sigizmunds strategy against me and while it is a good overall plan, it's impact can in no way compare to the M-gambits exploitiness.
For comparison, when I discovered the gambit, I was a relative noob with little more MP XP than Ashfall has now. The gambit enabled me to effortlessly walk over players with dozends of MP games and thousends of game hours under their belt. To be clear, everyone of them wanted me to do that, either to try to counter it or maybe because some like it rough [:D]. So they knew 100% what was coming and yet every game was decided in no more than 5-6 turns. And there was really no skill involved, it just made CP so powerfull so quickly, a spikey helmeted chimp could have won the match.
Now you can still do a turn 2 Cetinje, sure. But it won't kill Montenegro and the force you used to do it will be bottled up along the coast plus the convoy will immediately switch to its backup. Also Russias big Achilles heel, the supply routes to Poland, have been shored up with primary supply in Warsaw. So none of the devastating effects I used back then will trigger any more, even if the movement of the units on the map looks kind of similar.
A Russia first combined with a strong push in the Balkans is a strong strategy, you have to understand it and act accordingly to counter it, and even with the "right" reaction it can go either way. BUT it is no effortless autowin like the M-gambit was.

Oh, and about the late game artillery: that's basically normal lategame. The only thing that can counter it is your own artillery combined with good air recon. Trenches, cannons and shells are the three top techs to get.
Well...glad we got that straightened out.....
Man..I turned into a "chimp wearing the spikey helmet" when I read this post as another iteration of the M-Gambit.

OK...I will slink back to my den of iniquity...and not come out till I get more data on any eXploit accusation.

Image
Sorry if I got that across the wrong way! What I wanted to say was that the power of the exploit, properly harnessed, created such an enormous gap between German and Russian fighting power, there was just no way to not win as CP. Remember when my unentrenched Cav easily wiped the floor with two of your corps that attacked with preparation bonus or when my unentrenched, already damaged corps fought of 9 !!! attacks commanded by Brusilov and Yudenich? Pretty sure nothing so extreme happened in the Sigizmund vs Ashfall match.
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RE: What to do about this **** situation?

Post by Bavre »

ORIGINAL: AshFall
If it's any consolation, the Jury is still out about this one as far as I am concerned.

I've refined the gambit so that I -think- it allows cutting off Serbia from any aid turn 3 by conquering Albania and taking Cetinje. There is nothing the Entente can do to save Serbia. Given the best possible defence (as far as I can see from testing) It will fall sometime December 14-March 15 depending. Earlier if the defense if even slightly bungled.

It also allows the secure defense of Eastern Germany and Galicia, and turning onto the offensive as the year turns. Starting 1915 Germany should have free hands to devote loving attention to Russia, get the aid of Bulgaria and help the Ottomans if they need it.

Also, ceding trento and Trieste is viable since Austria hasnt lost anything else and goes on the offensive in the east, taking some wind out of the Entente Diplo game and refusing that front to the western Entente.

For that reason, and the "force fields" erected around Germany by the Low countries and neutral Italy, I think it might still be broken. If only because there is no counterplay as far as I can see, if done correctly.

It does carry the following downsides:
France and Britain are left alone to do what they will. DoW the Low countries (savage NM hits and free units for the CP), attack Mesopotamia or Palestine with whatever they like, ready aid to Greece.

Germany starts out with lesser tech investments than usual, but should catch up given conquests and Bulgaria soon enough.

I would not be very optimistic about that plan. Actually I tried something similar in two of my early matches as noob and both went totally south. If you wait till 15 to attack both France and Russia, they will both be a MUCH tougher nut to crack. In my multiplayer XP so far it has always been essential for CP to take out a sizeable chunk of at least one of them (in addition to the Balkan) during the early movement phase before the better trenches. That's btw also the reason for me thinking your CP was doomed in March 15 during our last match.
I'm available for a further test of course.
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