CMO 1.05 official update BVR missile performance.

[thewood1]

I didn't set anything. I left it on the mission you built.

[Tcao]

That's weird
they are supposed to approaching the target at 920kt with afterburner on

BVR launch missile.jpg (251.32 KiB) Viewed 866 times

Before my laptop crash, I have finished the following tests


AIM-54 (DB max range 72.9nm)
NEZ range = 14nm
direct
2375kt (when hit the target)

AIM-7M (DB max range 38nm)
NEZ range = 6nm
direct
1900kt

aim 120d (max 86.4nm)
NEZ range = 16nm
direct
2600kt

AIM 260 (max 120nm)
NEZ range = 22nm (now compare this to the insane PL-15 NEZ range)
direct
2650kt

Meteor (max 100nm)
NEZ range = 11.5nm
direct
2650kt


AAM-5 (max 19nm)
gun range

AAM-4B (max 64.8nm)
NEZ range = 16nm
direct
2500kt

[Tcao]

There are something puzzled me, and I will dig into that later
Meteor (max 100nm)
NEZ range = 11.5nm

Why this testing is different from my pervious report in tech support?
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 0&t=392358

Why a Meteor from a germany Typhoon has NEZ range at 11.5nm against a Su-27P, while a Meteor from Saudi Typhoon has NEZ range at 36nm against Mig-29K?

[Tcao]

• As you would expect, if you want a guaranteed kill, NEZ is the ticket.

Indeed, but many times NEZ is an over-kill
There are many factors extend missiles lethal range: OODA cooling down, spot the incoming missiles or not , and most important-- targeted A/C will not transfer into defensive maneuver until missile get closer than 10nm.

My experience from "Tiny" Beta times shows 1/3 max range should be enough (for most of the missiles).

[thewood1]

Might be overkill, but its generally guaranteed to hit. There are circumstances where even 1/3 might not be good enough against a high-speed, maneuvering, and higher target.

One thing I'm starting to test is when the target detects the missile. That seems to have a greater influence than almost anything else.

[thewood1]

btw, I knew I had seen this somewhere...from CSBA's 2015 report TRENDS IN AIR-TO-AIR COMBAT: IMPLICATIONS FOR FUTURE AIR SUPERIORITY

"At no time did any U.S. aircraft exceed 650 knots (Mach 1.03 at 12,000 ft), even against targets moving at 700 knots or more."

It was also pointed out that most launches were by aircraft not engaged in heavy ACM. So they were flying fairly straight and level on initial launch.

With AWACS available, as contrived as this test looks, its not incredibly far off the Gulf War engagements.

[Tcao]

Early detection of incoming missile doesn't help
first radars in CMO are a little OP, even old generation radar like Su-27P's radar can detect missile at 20nm away (before IRST detection and before mk1 eyeball detection), so even the old generation fighters have a good early warning on incoming missile if it is released at long distance.

then , please see below
the F-15EX's powerful AESA radar detected the missile 58nm away at 172849. however, he didn't begin the defensive maneuver until missile get closer into 15nm distance ( and that is 172944, 55 seconds later)

AESA detect AAM.jpg (427.83 KiB) Viewed 795 times

looks like the distance to the missile is the most important trigger to defensive maneuver in long range engagement.

[Dimitris]

Why a Meteor from a germany Typhoon has NEZ range at 11.5nm against a Su-27P, while a Meteor from Saudi Typhoon has NEZ range at 36nm against Mig-29K?

Keep in mind that effective NEZ launch range is partially driven by what you know about the target you are engaging (more specifically, what you infer about its maximum speed).

For example, you have an incoming unclassified bandit at e.g. Mach 1 so your NEZ calculation is based on its current speed. Then you classify it as e.g. a MiG-25 and now your NEZ suddenly shrinks dramatically because you now assume it can run away at Mach 3 once you shoot.

[Dimitris]

One thing I'm starting to test is when the target detects the missile. That seems to have a greater influence than almost anything else.

^ That indeed. Aircraft that can anyhow early-detect incoming missiles (through radar, or MAWS or with systems like DAS) have a much higher chance to evade.

[thewood1]

Ran some tests on AAM incoming detection. Chose an F-22 with an AIM-120C-7 WRA set at max range. All clear skies.

Mig-29k - with radar on detected 120 at 15nm and both 120s missed, without radar detected at 9nm through RWR and solid contact 5nm with optics. Both 120s missed.
Bison - No detection until 2nm and no maneuver. First missile kill.
Tu-22M3 - RWR detection around 10nm, but a very rough only. Eyeball detection at 2-3nm. First missile kill.

I think thats pretty reasonable. The only thing I have no idea about is how well a modern radar can detect a 120-sized object.

Just for giggles, I Tested NEZ with the two bombers. 120 fired at almost max range of the 120 for the Bison. Fired about 75-80% max range on the Backfire. Just shows the "dynamic" change in firing range based on target.

[bsq]

I think thats pretty reasonable. The only thing I have no idea about is how well a modern radar can detect a 120-sized object.

IRL, depends what mode it's in. If it's looking for head-on, approaching targets that are within its FOV, then probably quite well, but not at some of the ranges seen in the game... In any other mode not optimised for high doppler head on engagements, then doubt it will see it no matter how modern it is. Then you are down to DASS/MAWS. If the motor on the bird has run its course, then it's nigh on invisible to anything but an active MAWS.

[Tcao]

I think thats pretty reasonable. The only thing I have no idea about is how well a modern radar can detect a 120-sized object.

IRL, depends what mode it's in. If it's looking for head-on, approaching targets that are within its FOV, then probably quite well, but not at some of the ranges seen in the game... In any other mode not optimised for high doppler head on engagements, then doubt it will see it no matter how modern it is. Then you are down to DASS/MAWS. If the motor on the bird has run its course, then it's nigh on invisible to anything but an active MAWS.

In current build even a Mig-23's radar can easily detect AAM

New contact! Designated MISSILE #3 - Detected by Red1 #1 (MiG-23ML Flogger G) [Sensors: High Lark 2 [Sapfir-23ML]] at 197deg - 9.7nm

This is the detection of R-27.

The Radar detection of AMRAAM happens at a slightly shorter distance, and it needs the help of RWR to be aware of an ARH missile is incoming

rwr radar.jpg (26.87 KiB) Viewed 538 times

[Tcao]

Finally,
May I present you this....

bvr info.jpg (225.3 KiB) Viewed 441 times

BVR NEZ.zip

(11.21 KiB) Downloaded 3 times

[Tcao]

At a first glance , R-77/AA-12 family has better NEZ range compare to AMRAAMs family,
AMRAAM has better effective max range against a non maneuver target (IL-76) , probably because AMRAAMs loft towards the target while R-77 take a direct path.

[c3k]

Interesting to see the Meteor NEZ is less than the Amraam 120D.

[bsq]

Ran some tests on AAM incoming detection. Chose an F-22 with an AIM-120C-7 WRA set at max range. All clear skies.

Mig-29k - with radar on detected 120 at 15nm and both 120s missed, without radar detected at 9nm through RWR and solid contact 5nm with optics. Both 120s missed.
Bison - No detection until 2nm and no maneuver. First missile kill.
Tu-22M3 - RWR detection around 10nm, but a very rough only. Eyeball detection at 2-3nm. First missile kill.

I think thats pretty reasonable. The only thing I have no idea about is how well a modern radar can detect a 120-sized object.

RWR on an inbound missile (because its coming straight at you) will give bearing only (there is no bearing shift per se to give you a cross fix).
IRST is like looking through a 'soda straw' if it were any other way it wouldn't have the resolution to detect anything bigger than some large object like an airliner or a surface ship in a wide FOV mode. So, as I asked in another post, how do they know where to look? They have 2 radios, interflight and control. Maybe a DL, but not always, so who/what is telling them where to slew the IRST.
Eyeball well thats the hardest of all. That's near impossible until it's too late. You pick stuff up with Mk1 because of a change relative to you the observer. A closing target is one of the hardest to spot when its very small, grey, against a similar (tone) coloured background.
DAS and MAWS IRL will false alarm, so arent always trusted.

Right now, with the sensor models, AAW is slewed in the favour of the target, not the attacker. The attacker has enough to contend with that is as its should be (fail to guide, fails to track, missile malfunction, DAS intervention, TRD etc) without having to contend with the fact that fighters are omniscient when it comes to picking up missles that are, in reality, around 12-14 inches in diameter, coming at you at high speed.

[davedashftw]

Ran some tests on AAM incoming detection. Chose an F-22 with an AIM-120C-7 WRA set at max range. All clear skies.

Mig-29k - with radar on detected 120 at 15nm and both 120s missed, without radar detected at 9nm through RWR and solid contact 5nm with optics. Both 120s missed.
Bison - No detection until 2nm and no maneuver. First missile kill.
Tu-22M3 - RWR detection around 10nm, but a very rough only. Eyeball detection at 2-3nm. First missile kill.

I think thats pretty reasonable. The only thing I have no idea about is how well a modern radar can detect a 120-sized object.

RWR on an inbound missile (because its coming straight at you) will give bearing only (there is no bearing shift per se to give you a cross fix).
IRST is like looking through a 'soda straw' if it were any other way it wouldn't have the resolution to detect anything bigger than some large object like an airliner or a surface ship in a wide FOV mode. So, as I asked in another post, how do they know where to look? They have 2 radios, interflight and control. Maybe a DL, but not always, so who/what is telling them where to slew the IRST.
Eyeball well thats the hardest of all. That's near impossible until it's too late. You pick stuff up with Mk1 because of a change relative to you the observer. A closing target is one of the hardest to spot when its very small, grey, against a similar (tone) coloured background.
DAS and MAWS IRL will false alarm, so arent always trusted.

Right now, with the sensor models, AAW is slewed in the favour of the target, not the attacker. The attacker has enough to contend with that is as its should be (fail to guide, fails to track, missile malfunction, DAS intervention, TRD etc) without having to contend with the fact that fighters are omniscient when it comes to picking up missles that are, in reality, around 12-14 inches in diameter, coming at you at high speed.

Absolutely spot on post.

Visibility, radars, and situational awareness are all way over-modelled. Many planes as well like Russian 4th gen also have poor cockpit visibility, exasperating the issue even further.

How can this Mig-29 see this F-16 with mk1 eyeball, it's behind AND below?

Ridiculous02.png (256.33 KiB) Viewed 364 times

When I launch an AIM-9X from behind the Mig, how does the Mig know? It has no detection system equipped.

ridiculous01.png (265.33 KiB) Viewed 364 times

SAMs spotting and shooting down JDAMs pilots spotting incoming A2A missiles from miles out are not "reasonable". Radar detecting incoming missiles also should be extremely unreliable at best. The whole spotting system and situational awareness needs a complete overhaul.

Actual real pilots who have flown the F-14 and other platforms in combat have answered this question on Quora btw: https://www.quora.com/Can-fighters-dete ... ar-returns

I have seen these guys also talk about engaging defensive against incoming missiles in other posts. John Chesire has fought in Vietnam, and I follow a lot of his and other pilots posts. They have some amazing stories about air combat, evading SAMS in Vietnam, and other knowledge. What they say vs what we see in game do not line up to the point where it kills the suspension of disbelief.

The game has gotten away with these abstractions for some time, but now that missiles are being made more realistic but situational awareness hasn't, we have this unbalanced situation we see now.

[Dimitris]

How can this Mig-29 see this F-16 with mk1 eyeball, it's behind AND below?
Ridiculous02.png

When I launch an AIM-9X from behind the Mig, how does the Mig know? It has no detection system equipped.

ridiculous01.png

That definitely looks like a bug, because we have explicitly modelled different cockpit visibility configurations as well as the "behind and below" blind spots. Can you please open a new thread about this on the Tech Support forum. Thanks.

[davedashftw]

How can this Mig-29 see this F-16 with mk1 eyeball, it's behind AND below?
Ridiculous02.png

When I launch an AIM-9X from behind the Mig, how does the Mig know? It has no detection system equipped.

ridiculous01.png

That definitely looks like a bug, because we have explicitly modelled different cockpit visibility configurations as well as the "behind and below" blind spots. Can you please open a new thread about this on the Tech Support forum. Thanks.

Will do, with a save.

[Dimitris]

Actual real pilots who have flown the F-14 and other platforms in combat have answered this question on Quora btw: https://www.quora.com/Can-fighters-dete ... ar-returns

That links seems to lead to a page full of related questions but not a specific answer. Can we see a direct link to the text you have in mind? Thanks.