What To Do With Older I-Series Soviet Planes

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PeteJC
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What To Do With Older I-Series Soviet Planes

Post by PeteJC »

These older planes are severely outmatched by the German planes. It seems that the conventional wisdom is to just move them all to the Reserves on turn 1 and let them train pilots then later disband them or when possible swap the old planes out for better planes (i.e. Mig). One thing I noticed is that they do have a good climb rate. Could one (albeit niche) use for them be to protect Cities from bombing. For example, Odessa by basing a group of them in the city and running an Air Superiority mission over the city at a high altitude with possibly some of the better MiGs doing the same at a lower altitude. Will the superior climbing speed offset its other poorer qualities and allow it to be relatively effective at the higher altitudes or am I just grasping at straws to find them something to do other than off map pilot training?
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Re: What To Do With Older I-Series Soviet Planes

Post by Mehring »

The Soviet pilots that remain after T1 are the best they will have for some considerable time. You don't want to throw them away without an upside. You will have opportunities to attack the axis from the air in 41-42 with less risk and/or potential gain, so I'd save them for that. I've seen escorts gain a couple of experience in a week escorting bombers so with luck- it's hit and miss- you can build a half decent and useful fighter force to make use of your modern fighters, even LaGG's. I'd suggest keep the I models for training low experience AID's.
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Jango32
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Re: What To Do With Older I-Series Soviet Planes

Post by Jango32 »

The I-Series are perfectly capable of shooting down German planes. Keep them on the map and use them regularly.
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Re: What To Do With Older I-Series Soviet Planes

Post by Mehring »

Jango32 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:08 pm The I-Series are perfectly capable of shooting down German planes. Keep them on the map and use them regularly.
Sure, unescorted transports and bombers, if the Axis offers you the target.
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HardLuckYetAgain
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Re: What To Do With Older I-Series Soviet Planes

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Jango is 100% correct.
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Re: What To Do With Older I-Series Soviet Planes

Post by K62 »

They're actually pretty decent in bomber role when armed with the 100kg bombs. Much better than the SB-2. You can pack a lot of them on a single airfield and the short range is actually an advantage as they won't go too far if you leave ground support on during the German turn. The I-16 Type 29 is also pretty good at interdiction with the rocket loadout.
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HardLuckYetAgain
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Re: What To Do With Older I-Series Soviet Planes

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

This is my turn 9 game where I am playing the Soviets. You can see 685 German fighter & Fighter/bomber kills I have achieved so far and I am using the old "I" frames along with the new models. Don't use them at your own pearl.


Again, this is turn 9 as a Soviet with 685 Axis fighters lost with the VAST majority in Air-to-Air combat. (28 I know were on the ground from one airfield bombing and airfield bombing is currently restricted now)


T9 Air War.png
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HardLuckYetAgain
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Re: What To Do With Older I-Series Soviet Planes

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

Here is an "I" Series with 13 kills. Most of my other "I" series are in the 5-11 range. And these aircraft are flying Air Superiority and escorting my ILs.

I frame with 13.png
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HardLuckYetAgain
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Re: What To Do With Older I-Series Soviet Planes

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

Of course it is all how you are using your airforce but I am not turning this into a lesson on that. Just saying a great deal of misconception out there that is being propagated and just thought I would support Jango's point. Anyway, I leave with the kills on this aircraft. Guess you got to love the number on that one :)

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HardLuckYetAgain
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Re: What To Do With Older I-Series Soviet Planes

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

K62 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:28 am They're actually pretty decent in bomber role when armed with the 100kg bombs. Much better than the SB-2. You can pack a lot of them on a single airfield and the short range is actually an advantage as they won't go too far if you leave ground support on during the German turn. The I-16 Type 29 is also pretty good at interdiction with the rocket loadout.
I tried what you wrote in the early turns of my JB game. I have since switched the "I" series to just escort the "TAC bombers" (SU's and the IL's) I have on GS on both my phase and enemy phase of the turn. BTW I am "not" using level bombers for GS in my game, lol. Only TAC bombers
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HardLuckYetAgain
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Re: What To Do With Older I-Series Soviet Planes

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

PeteJC wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:20 pm These older planes are severely outmatched by the German planes. It seems that the conventional wisdom is to just move them all to the Reserves on turn 1 and let them train pilots then later disband them or when possible swap the old planes out for better planes (i.e. Mig). One thing I noticed is that they do have a good climb rate. Could one (albeit niche) use for them be to protect Cities from bombing. For example, Odessa by basing a group of them in the city and running an Air Superiority mission over the city at a high altitude with possibly some of the better MiGs doing the same at a lower altitude. Will the superior climbing speed offset its other poorer qualities and allow it to be relatively effective at the higher altitudes or am I just grasping at straws to find them something to do other than off map pilot training?
I personally use my "I" planes. As can be seen in this picture I consider this a win for the Soviets in the Air. On the ground.... Well that is a different story, lol.

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PeteJC
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Re: What To Do With Older I-Series Soviet Planes

Post by PeteJC »

K62 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:28 am They're actually pretty decent in bomber role when armed with the 100kg bombs. Much better than the SB-2. You can pack a lot of them on a single airfield and the short range is actually an advantage as they won't go too far if you leave ground support on during the German turn. The I-16 Type 29 is also pretty good at interdiction with the rocket loadout.
in my example I was thinking about them as a fighter intercepting incoming bombers attacking Odessa. Given their superior climb rate I thought they may be useful at higher altitudes. Also, I may be mistaken but under the most recent patch altitude settings matter when it comes to intercepting incoming attacks. Something that may have not been such a big deal in past patches.

Not to hijack my own post but HLYA what are the best settings for interdiction? You mentioned your success in another post but did not say what the best settings were.
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Re: What To Do With Older I-Series Soviet Planes

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

PeteJC wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:32 am
K62 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:28 am They're actually pretty decent in bomber role when armed with the 100kg bombs. Much better than the SB-2. You can pack a lot of them on a single airfield and the short range is actually an advantage as they won't go too far if you leave ground support on during the German turn. The I-16 Type 29 is also pretty good at interdiction with the rocket loadout.
in my example I was thinking about them as a fighter intercepting incoming bombers attacking Odessa. Given their superior climb rate I thought they may be useful at higher altitudes. Also, I may be mistaken but under the most recent patch altitude settings matter when it comes to intercepting incoming attacks. Something that may have not been such a big deal in past patches.

Not to hijack my own post but HLYA what are the best settings for interdiction? You mentioned your success in another post but did not say what the best settings were.

Altitude has always been there. I feel many may set their altitude and just fly it the rest of the game. I actually change mine regularly on my missions.


Hmmmmm, best settings for AS. Really depends and really no "best" settings since both sides are fluid in their set-up. This is where you need to start understanding what your opponent is doing to try and counter it. But a generic one would be to fly 3 levels if you are really worried about a section of the battlefield. I.E. Fly Laggs @ 3-5,000 feet, fly Yak-1s at 12-16,000 feet, and fly Mig's at 21-26,000 feet for example. (You can check the editor for best altitudes for your aircraft) You can break this down even further out of the Generic set-up by having those first three only fly during your turn then have another set of 3 AS, set up exactly the same, to only fly during the enemies turn. Then you could break those flights up to fly all the days, some of the days or only one day. But I am going to digress there since this can get very in depth. Hope that helps.
Last edited by HardLuckYetAgain on Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
PeteJC
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Re: What To Do With Older I-Series Soviet Planes

Post by PeteJC »

HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:47 am
PeteJC wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:32 am
K62 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:28 am They're actually pretty decent in bomber role when armed with the 100kg bombs. Much better than the SB-2. You can pack a lot of them on a single airfield and the short range is actually an advantage as they won't go too far if you leave ground support on during the German turn. The I-16 Type 29 is also pretty good at interdiction with the rocket loadout.
in my example I was thinking about them as a fighter intercepting incoming bombers attacking Odessa. Given their superior climb rate I thought they may be useful at higher altitudes. Also, I may be mistaken but under the most recent patch altitude settings matter when it comes to intercepting incoming attacks. Something that may have not been such a big deal in past patches.

Not to hijack my own post but HLYA what are the best settings for interdiction? You mentioned your success in another post but did not say what the best settings were.

Altitude has always been there. I feel many may set their altitude and just fly it the rest of the game. I actually change mine regularly on my missions.


Hmmmmm, best settings for interdiction. Really depends and really no "best" settings since both sides are fluid in their set-up. This is where you need to start understanding what your opponent is doing to try and counter it. But a generic one would be to fly 3 levels if you are really worried about a section of the battlefield. I.E. Fly Laggs @ 3-5,000 feet, fly Yak-1s at 12-16,000 feet, and fly Mig's at 21-26,000 feet for example. (You can check the editor for best altitudes for your aircraft) You can break this down even further out of the Generic set-up by having those first three only fly during your turn then have another set of 3 AS, set up exactly the same, to only fly during the enemies turn. Then you could break those flights up to fly all the days, some of the days or only one day. But I am going to digress there since this can get very in depth. Hope that helps.
Clear as mud. Just kidding. This helps. The answer is "it depends". There is no perfect universal setting. With that said, I have only every been able to achieve an interdiction level in a hex of up to 8. Not "level's just 8. That is against no resistance. I read in one of the War Rooms (may have been the pearls of wisdom) that if you can achieve 3 "levels" it will pretty much stop everything. If a level equals 10 interdiction points I am at a loss at how one achieves that.
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Re: What To Do With Older I-Series Soviet Planes

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

PeteJC wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:18 am
HardLuckYetAgain wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:47 am
PeteJC wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:32 am
in my example I was thinking about them as a fighter intercepting incoming bombers attacking Odessa. Given their superior climb rate I thought they may be useful at higher altitudes. Also, I may be mistaken but under the most recent patch altitude settings matter when it comes to intercepting incoming attacks. Something that may have not been such a big deal in past patches.

Not to hijack my own post but HLYA what are the best settings for interdiction? You mentioned your success in another post but did not say what the best settings were.

Altitude has always been there. I feel many may set their altitude and just fly it the rest of the game. I actually change mine regularly on my missions.


Hmmmmm, best settings for interdiction. Really depends and really no "best" settings since both sides are fluid in their set-up. This is where you need to start understanding what your opponent is doing to try and counter it. But a generic one would be to fly 3 levels if you are really worried about a section of the battlefield. I.E. Fly Laggs @ 3-5,000 feet, fly Yak-1s at 12-16,000 feet, and fly Mig's at 21-26,000 feet for example. (You can check the editor for best altitudes for your aircraft) You can break this down even further out of the Generic set-up by having those first three only fly during your turn then have another set of 3 AS, set up exactly the same, to only fly during the enemies turn. Then you could break those flights up to fly all the days, some of the days or only one day. But I am going to digress there since this can get very in depth. Hope that helps.
Clear as mud. Just kidding. This helps. The answer is "it depends". There is no perfect universal setting. With that said, I have only every been able to achieve an interdiction level in a hex of up to 8. Not "level's just 8. That is against no resistance. I read in one of the War Rooms (may have been the pearls of wisdom) that if you can achieve 3 "levels" it will pretty much stop everything. If a level equals 10 interdiction points I am at a loss at how one achieves that.
LOL, I gave you an answer for Air Superiority, LOL. That is what happens when I am focused on something else. Sorry about that but is a decent write-up for AS, lol. OH BTW, that AS set-up on three levels is not full proof and will not stop everything, unless you are playing Germany ;-)

Interdiction is interesting. If not intercepted you can get a 5 interdiction with 1 polk of SB's in the opening turns of the war. Now "if" an enemy unit is in the hex that is being interdicted then that 5 would be turned into a 1 or less or nothing at all. So you have to be cognitive of that. Bigger the bomb load the better i.e. TB-3's

So, if no enemy unit in the hex then 1 polk (30 planes) of SB's flying every day of the week at 8,000 feet should put down * to 5 interdiction depending on how far they fly to do so. What I mean by that is that if you are close to the front and fly 4 missions a day then you will get a higher interdiction level. If you are far and only flying 1 mission with that air group then your interdiction level will be much lower. So closer the better.

With an enemy counter in the hex then you are going to run the gamut of AA fire. With the "CRAZY" amount of losses from AA I would recommend "not" interdicting bombing on top of PZ's or MOTO's after turn 4 unless you wish to take more losses on your aircraft than 1st turn German bombing Soviet airfields. BUT if you decide to do so then you need ~3x the amount of aircraft to get the same interdiction in the hex (with a BUTTLOAD of AA flak losses, good luck if you do this). (I really believe the Germans and Soviets have surface to air missiles from the future in this game with the flak losses I have seen)
Last edited by HardLuckYetAgain on Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:56 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: What To Do With Older I-Series Soviet Planes

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

I should sit down and write up my findings on interdiction..... But I have pretty much moved on from this game except for my 1 game with JB.
Jango32
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Re: What To Do With Older I-Series Soviet Planes

Post by Jango32 »

In addition to what HLYA has said which I agree with, so what if your I-series get shot down? They're obsolete units, which means from a Soviet player's POV that they are perfect at causing attrition for the Axis at little cost. German planes can kill themselves just from operational losses with no VVS units intercepting, never mind when VVS units intercept. Their pilots and planes are valuable and hard to replace, yours aren't.
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Re: What To Do With Older I-Series Soviet Planes

Post by PeteJC »

Jango32 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:21 am In addition to what HLYA has said which I agree with, so what if your I-series get shot down? They're obsolete units, which means from a Soviet player's POV that they are perfect at causing attrition for the Axis at little cost. German planes can kill themselves just from operational losses with no VVS units intercepting, never mind when VVS units intercept. Their pilots and planes are valuable and hard to replace, yours aren't.
i don't disagree but I do wonder if the Soviets can lose an "extra" 1200 pilots. Just a guess if I use them pretty aggressively in the first 10 or so turns. I truly don't know as I am only on my second game as Soviets and we quit the first one at turn 18 so it is all new territory for me. There are so many of them and I hate to not use any of them. At the same time if pilots aren't overly abundant, I don't want to waste 1200 of them in bi-planes.
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Re: What To Do With Older I-Series Soviet Planes

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

PeteJC wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:48 pm
Jango32 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:21 am In addition to what HLYA has said which I agree with, so what if your I-series get shot down? They're obsolete units, which means from a Soviet player's POV that they are perfect at causing attrition for the Axis at little cost. German planes can kill themselves just from operational losses with no VVS units intercepting, never mind when VVS units intercept. Their pilots and planes are valuable and hard to replace, yours aren't.
i don't disagree but I do wonder if the Soviets can lose an "extra" 1200 pilots. Just a guess if I use them pretty aggressively in the first 10 or so turns. I truly don't know as I am only on my second game as Soviets and we quit the first one at turn 18 so it is all new territory for me. There are so many of them and I hate to not use any of them. At the same time if pilots aren't overly abundant, I don't want to waste 1200 of them in bi-planes.
It really comes down to "how" you use your "trained" pilots. But I will digress to Jango since he can put this in much better context than I ever could :)
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