Why can we see artillery kills from unobserved hexes

Flashpoint Campaigns Southern Storm is a grand tactical wargame set at the height of the Cold War, with the action centered on the year 1989.

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byzantine1990
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Why can we see artillery kills from unobserved hexes

Post by byzantine1990 »

Wish this was a setting we could turn on or off.
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Radagy
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Re: Why can we see artillery kills from unobserved hexes

Post by Radagy »

+1
JacquesDeLalaing
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Re: Why can we see artillery kills from unobserved hexes

Post by JacquesDeLalaing »

Yes, while we can no longer see enemy captures of objectives, there are still three major inconsistencies of Fog of War in the game that do affect multiplayer games:

1) Effect of artillery fire on unspotted hexes/enemies (losses shown on the map)
2) Enemy artillery missions on unspotted hexes
3) White dot on unit counters when they're spotted by unspotted enemy units.
byzantine1990
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Re: Why can we see artillery kills from unobserved hexes

Post by byzantine1990 »

JacquesDeLalaing wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:06 pm Yes, while we can no longer see enemy captures of objectives, there are still three major inconsistencies of Fog of War in the game that do affect multiplayer games:

1) Effect of artillery fire on unspotted hexes/enemies (losses shown on the map)
2) Enemy artillery missions on unspotted hexes
3) White dot on unit counters when they're spotted by unspotted enemy units.
All great points. These should be something you can turn on/off

Would be great to hear what the thought process was.
byzantine1990
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Re: Why can we see artillery kills from unobserved hexes

Post by byzantine1990 »

+1
theWombat
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Re: Why can we see artillery kills from unobserved hexes

Post by theWombat »

Eh, I see where folks are coming from, but none of these things bug me. I figure that in reality there are a lot of things going on that aren't modeled in any game. Sound, civilians, local phone lines that survived whatever is going on, stragglers from other units, that undefinable but very real "sixth sense" folks develop in these sort of situations, and just the general friction of a chaotic environment. All off this contributes information in some way, and as this is a game, as a player I want a balance between opacity and transparency. Trying to balance omniscience and total ignorance to give the gamer something challenging but reasonable, allowing us to make decisions using info as close to what a battlefield commander might have as possible, is never going to be perfect. I rather think they've done a good job here.

For instance, the indicators that a unit has been spotted. Given the limitations of 2D maps and the spotting mechanics and how line of sight is represented, this seems like a very necessary concession to the player. It might be the equivalent, say, of sniper fire or a few bursts of MG fire on a unit when the unit can't see any foes, but they definitely know they are out there. YMMV of course.
byzantine1990
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Re: Why can we see artillery kills from unobserved hexes

Post by byzantine1990 »

theWombat wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:16 pm Eh, I see where folks are coming from, but none of these things bug me. I figure that in reality there are a lot of things going on that aren't modeled in any game. Sound, civilians, local phone lines that survived whatever is going on, stragglers from other units, that undefinable but very real "sixth sense" folks develop in these sort of situations, and just the general friction of a chaotic environment. All off this contributes information in some way, and as this is a game, as a player I want a balance between opacity and transparency. Trying to balance omniscience and total ignorance to give the gamer something challenging but reasonable, allowing us to make decisions using info as close to what a battlefield commander might have as possible, is never going to be perfect. I rather think they've done a good job here.

For instance, the indicators that a unit has been spotted. Given the limitations of 2D maps and the spotting mechanics and how line of sight is represented, this seems like a very necessary concession to the player. It might be the equivalent, say, of sniper fire or a few bursts of MG fire on a unit when the unit can't see any foes, but they definitely know they are out there. YMMV of course.
I think it's all the more reason to add an option to turn it on or off.

Not showing unobserved casualties creates more interesting game play decisions. Did that unit move or are u destroying them? For all the focus on realism and "command friction" it sticks out like a sore thumb.
byzantine1990
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Re: Why can we see artillery kills from unobserved hexes

Post by byzantine1990 »

+1 would be great to get confirmation from the debs.
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Tcao
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Re: Why can we see artillery kills from unobserved hexes

Post by Tcao »

JacquesDeLalaing wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:06 pm Yes, while we can no longer see enemy captures of objectives, there are still three major inconsistencies of Fog of War in the game that do affect multiplayer games:

1) Effect of artillery fire on unspotted hexes/enemies (losses shown on the map)
2) Enemy artillery missions on unspotted hexes
3) White dot on unit counters when they're spotted by unspotted enemy units.
+1

it might take a while for dev team to find a solution to #1 & #2 . But I would love to see that annoying white dot in #3 be take off ASAP
byzantine1990
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Re: Why can we see artillery kills from unobserved hexes

Post by byzantine1990 »

Tcao wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:53 pm
JacquesDeLalaing wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:06 pm Yes, while we can no longer see enemy captures of objectives, there are still three major inconsistencies of Fog of War in the game that do affect multiplayer games:

1) Effect of artillery fire on unspotted hexes/enemies (losses shown on the map)
2) Enemy artillery missions on unspotted hexes
3) White dot on unit counters when they're spotted by unspotted enemy units.
+1

it might take a while for dev team to find a solution to #1 & #2 . But I would love to see that annoying white dot in #3 be take off ASAP
For sure. Just a confirmation whether it's intended or not would be great.
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CapnDarwin
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Re: Why can we see artillery kills from unobserved hexes

Post by CapnDarwin »

We are looking at many of the Fog of War issues brought up here and in other media channels, and we will review and work on them over the holidays. Once we have a better idea of what will make the January update we will let you all know. Arty hits, spotting dots, enemy info access, and other items are being reviewed.
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC
byzantine1990
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Re: Why can we see artillery kills from unobserved hexes

Post by byzantine1990 »

CapnDarwin wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 3:08 pm We are looking at many of the Fog of War issues brought up here and in other media channels, and we will review and work on them over the holidays. Once we have a better idea of what will make the January update we will let you all know. Arty hits, spotting dots, enemy info access, and other items are being reviewed.
Thank you for the response. I guess we can assume the things you mentioned aren't intended.
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WildCatNL
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Re: Why can we see artillery kills from unobserved hexes

Post by WildCatNL »

byzantine1990 wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:39 pm Thank you for the response. I guess we can assume the things you mentioned aren't intended.
Red Storm had pretty much the same mechanism for the 'spotting dots' and 'arty hits'. Compared to Red Storm, Southern Storm has more advanced fog-of-war applied to objective ownership and FASCAM placement (from the top of my head).
Enemy info access is a bug.

We're happy to hear that some players are asking for further steps in applying fog-of-war. A next step for us is to figure out how that fits with the game, how involved these changes would be, and what unintended side-effects they might have, and how to test any changes (fog-of-war testing gets pretty confusing very quickly). After that, it's a priority and planning discussion.
William
On Target Simulations LLC
byzantine1990
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Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:14 pm

Re: Why can we see artillery kills from unobserved hexes

Post by byzantine1990 »

WildCatNL wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 7:38 pm
byzantine1990 wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:39 pm Thank you for the response. I guess we can assume the things you mentioned aren't intended.
Red Storm had pretty much the same mechanism for the 'spotting dots' and 'arty hits'. Compared to Red Storm, Southern Storm has more advanced fog-of-war applied to objective ownership and FASCAM placement (from the top of my head).
Enemy info access is a bug.

We're happy to hear that some players are asking for further steps in applying fog-of-war. A next step for us is to figure out how that fits with the game, how involved these changes would be, and what unintended side-effects they might have, and how to test any changes (fog-of-war testing gets pretty confusing very quickly). After that, it's a priority and planning discussion.
Thank you for your response!
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