Withdraw When......

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DWReese
Posts: 2034
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:40 am
Location: Miami, Florida

Withdraw When......

Post by DWReese »

I would like to see this category updated if possible. Right now you have four options. Probably the most important is, "Withdraw when the primary attack weapon is less than....." These are then broken down into a drop box that let's you pick the percentage before withdrawing. On the surface, that sounds fine. But, in reality, I believe that it needs to be defined a little more clearly.

Playing Spratly Spat, the Chinese SAG has THREE types of SSM. The YJ-18 (290 miles), the YJ-62 (215 miles), and the YJ-823 (100 miles). I would assume that these are the group's PRIMARY ATTACK weapons.

In playing this scenario, you know that firing the first two SSM groups at maximum distance keeps you out of harm's way. You also know that if you wait until you get with 100 miles to fire all three groups you will be fired upon by the enemy.

I would like the list to be more refined so that I could indicate that I want to withdraw after firing all of the first two groups.

I suppose (but don't know for sure) that I could add up ALL of the missiles (56 to be exact), and then indicate that I want to withdraw when it reaches 50 percent, but that doesn't work because I would need to fire 28, and that is 4 more than I want. If I select the next available option, then it would be a 25 percent, and that would be firing just 14 of the desired 24. That wouldn't do very much damage. So, the SAG is in limbo because it can't be told to Withdraw at the proper time. So, the percentages, in my opinion, don't give you enough latitude.

Being able to select the exact weapon would be much better. "Withdraw when this weapon reaches....." would be a much better way of doing it.

This is a perfect scenario to discuss this because neither side has enough weapons to annihilate the other side, so it is really a shoot and scoot situation.

If possible, I believe that this would be a nice addition when you get a chance.
BDukes
Posts: 2290
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:59 pm

Re: Withdraw When......

Post by BDukes »

Good lord DWReese. I developed this 4-5 years ago, and I'm a little hazy, but I think I may have used Lua to program the retreat as it might predate the withdrawal logic. I have no idea if somebody has updated it since, and don't even have a license key to look. :lol:

I think your approach is great, although I'd probably just use Lua to do it myself. I think Hughes's salvo equations might be a nicer touch. I really want to start looking at programming better AI logic with variations in general and hope to once the flight planner gets done, and the platform is stable enough to be worth the time. This is not a dig at the devs at all but more being smarter with the time I've got for this stuff.

M
Don't call it a comeback...
DWReese
Posts: 2034
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:40 am
Location: Miami, Florida

Re: Withdraw When......

Post by DWReese »

Mike,

Your scenario doesn't actually have a WITHDRAWL setup. It has a RETREAT. The RETREAT send the TF (both sides) back to a box away from the action. That works just fine. You have various levels for things to happen before that order is finally given. It's actually quite clever.

But, that got me thinking about the REAL WITHDRAWL order. I've been playing around with it for a day or so.

First and foremost, for the units to WITHDRAW, they have to have a base (a dock). (Your scenario doesn't have that, so there could never actually be a WITHDRAWL the way that it is setup.) The RETREAT mission, however, works just fine.

Second, the REAL QUESTION is, "WHAT CONSTITUTES A PRIMARY ATTACK WEAPON?" In most cases, this should be obvious. In some cases, where units have several attack weapons (like Harpoons and Tomahawks), that can be a little crazy. For example, setting a ship at 50 percent, does that mean 50 percent of both weapons, or 50 percent of just Tomahawks, since they may be considered the PRIMARY weapon? Or, 50 percent of ALL primary Weapons? I haven't figured that out as of yet.
And, what about ships which are really just floating SAM sites? Those are handled differently, and that's another story.

In any case, you can't assign a GROUP to a base, so you have to assign each individual ship. That's no big deal. Now, what is a big deal is that IF you assign the ships to WITHDRAW after a certain percentage is reached, then they will break off from the group and head to the base by themselves. I'm not certain that that is best. I just had a Conga Line of Soviet ships (in my test) break off one-by-one and head home. No longer grouped together, they were much more vulnerable.

The WITHDRAW parameters do work, but it would be nice if they could be enhanced a little to account for the situation above.
DWReese
Posts: 2034
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:40 am
Location: Miami, Florida

Re: Withdraw When......

Post by DWReese »

BTW, Mike, Spratly Spat is still one of the BEST scenarios ever. There is lots of action, but few things actually destroyed. It seems to be pretty realistic. I've always said, being the last surface ship in the area doesn't necessarily mean that you are the winner. Even if you are last, you still have to go back home at some point, and some other new ship could arrive. The ocean, unlike the land, can't have a flag hoisted and be claimed. Land can be conquered and defended. The ocean is different. You scenario does a great job of illustrating that.
BDukes
Posts: 2290
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:59 pm

Re: Withdraw When......

Post by BDukes »

DWReese wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:04 pm Mike,

Your scenario doesn't actually have a WITHDRAWL setup. It has a RETREAT. The RETREAT send the TF (both sides) back to a box away from the action. That works just fine. You have various levels for things to happen before that order is finally given. It's actually quite clever.

But, that got me thinking about the REAL WITHDRAWL order. I've been playing around with it for a day or so.

First and foremost, for the units to WITHDRAW, they have to have a base (a dock). (Your scenario doesn't have that, so there could never actually be a WITHDRAWL the way that it is setup.) The RETREAT mission, however, works just fine.

Second, the REAL QUESTION is, "WHAT CONSTITUTES A PRIMARY ATTACK WEAPON?" In most cases, this should be obvious. In some cases, where units have several attack weapons (like Harpoons and Tomahawks), that can be a little crazy. For example, setting a ship at 50 percent, does that mean 50 percent of both weapons, or 50 percent of just Tomahawks, since they may be considered the PRIMARY weapon? Or, 50 percent of ALL primary Weapons? I haven't figured that out as of yet.
And, what about ships which are really just floating SAM sites? Those are handled differently, and that's another story.

In any case, you can't assign a GROUP to a base, so you have to assign each individual ship. That's no big deal. Now, what is a big deal is that IF you assign the ships to WITHDRAW after a certain percentage is reached, then they will break off from the group and head to the base by themselves. I'm not certain that that is best. I just had a Conga Line of Soviet ships (in my test) break off one-by-one and head home. No longer grouped together, they were much more vulnerable.

The WITHDRAW parameters do work, but it would be nice if they could be enhanced a little to account for the situation above.
Got my vote on this one for sure.

I'd probably divide up into land, sea, or air attack weapons so you'd have a case for each, AND and OR between is best. You're more or less testing to see if a unit is capable against either class of target and, if not best to retreat until you are.
BTW, Mike, Spratly Spat is still one of the BEST scenarios ever. There is lots of action, but few things actually destroyed. It seems to be pretty realistic. I've always said, being the last surface ship in the area doesn't necessarily mean that you are the winner. Even if you are last, you still have to go back home at some point, and some other new ship could arrive. The ocean, unlike the land, can't have a flag hoisted and be claimed. Land can be conquered and defended. The ocean is different. You scenario does a great job of illustrating that
Thanks, much appreciated.

M
Don't call it a comeback...
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