2 inch mortar

Valor & Victory is a fast-playing, easy to learn World War II squad-level game system. Based on the original Valor & Victory board game, the digital edition provides you with an accessible and deep challenge, developed for classic tabletop game lovers.
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Emporer
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:37 pm

2 inch mortar

Post by Emporer »

Hi

I wonder why this light mortars are so effective vs tanks and armour cars.
In my opinion a 50, 60 or 80mm mortar are to be treated as light mortar and they should NOTt be able to knock out tanks or armored cars. This is a little silly or are this made this for play balance?
I hope the designer will change this in the next patch.

Cheers
Captain Jack
pullg
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:57 pm

Re: 2 inch mortar

Post by pullg »

WWII-era AFVs, especially early in the war, were pretty thin on top, and what armor there was often was pierced by vents and hatches. In fact, many armored cars, tank destroyers, and troop carriers were completely open-top, so even a light mortar round in the wrong place could be catastrophic. This may also be the designers simplifying rules and an abstract way of accounting for the habit of many tank crews to operate with open or partially-open hatches -- given a choice between being partially-exposed to fire or staying buttoned down and not seeing the infantryman stuffing a sticky bomb in your engine vent, better to have eyes out. Not to mention that air conditioning wasn't introduced to tanks until well into the second half of the century. :)
Emporer
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:37 pm

Re: 2 inch mortar

Post by Emporer »

Hi

I didn't talk about open halftracks. Small calibre mortars had no chance to inflick any serius damage to a tank or armored cars. A that time it was only HE grenades that exist, not any AP grenades and as long that there was no armor penetration ability there was no chance.
So it's very unrealistic to knock out armored vehicles oher than open half tracks etc with the small calibre mortars. When I play a military game a want to have some realistic enviroment in the game therefore the designer should change this.

Note: When armored vehicles are in fights the crews tends to close all hatches etc and stay inside the vehicle and dont expose them to enemy fire. Thats the whole idea of the tank :D. It's the accompanying infatrys job to clear from enemy infatry when the fight starts.

Cheers
Captain Jack
edb1815
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:56 pm

Re: 2 inch mortar

Post by edb1815 »

I recently got a bailed out result on a tank from a mortar hit. That could mean anything even slight damage to important systems, like optics. Mortars could also immobilize AFV with a hit on the running gear or tracks.

Granted this should be a rare occurrence like a roll of 2 etc.
Emporer
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:37 pm

Re: 2 inch mortar

Post by Emporer »

edb1815 wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 5:18 pm I recently got a bailed out result on a tank from a mortar hit. That could mean anything even slight damage to important systems, like optics. Mortars could also immobilize AFV with a hit on the running gear or tracks.

Granted this should be a rare occurrence like a roll of 2 etc.
Hi

Yes it happen in the game but in real world it doesn't happen. 2 inch caliber and even bigger mortars is far to small do any real damage on tanks or armored cars. This grenades is tiny and small and should be used against soft targets as they did in real.
Even to hit an open AFV moving is very difficult get a strike so you knock it out of action, but possible with luck and much skill...
Too many people playing war or strategy games without any military training think that some weapon can do unrealistically damage which would never happen in real world.
My point in this is that I want to play as real as it can gamewise. If people want to play fantasy games this shouldn't be the game for them.

Cheers

Captain Jack
edb1815
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:56 pm

Re: 2 inch mortar

Post by edb1815 »

Emporer wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:25 pm
edb1815 wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 5:18 pm I recently got a bailed out result on a tank from a mortar hit. That could mean anything even slight damage to important systems, like optics. Mortars could also immobilize AFV with a hit on the running gear or tracks.

Granted this should be a rare occurrence like a roll of 2 etc.
Hi

Yes it happen in the game but in real world it doesn't happen. 2 inch caliber and even bigger mortars is far to small do any real damage on tanks or armored cars. This grenades is tiny and small and should be used against soft targets as they did in real.
Even to hit an open AFV moving is very difficult get a strike so you knock it out of action, but possible with luck and much skill...
Too many people playing war or strategy games without any military training think that some weapon can do unrealistically damage which would never happen in real world.
My point in this is that I want to play as real as it can gamewise. If people want to play fantasy games this shouldn't be the game for them.

Cheers

Captain Jack
Be careful using absolute terms. I did say mortar damage should be very rare and situational. I agree the 2" or US 60mm mortar is a very small amount of HE. Sorry for not being clearer but the in-game case I referenced was a stopped halftrack, so the crew was vulnerable to a lucky hit. I agree not a tank of course.

Mainly tanks getting hit by mortars would reduce the effectiveness by causing the crew to button up or cause running gear damage. However, there are documented cases of damage to the vehicles sufficient to disable them. Looking at tank losses mortar fire was 1%, so yes rare but it did happen.

Here is a source on WWII tank casualties and the causes of the losses:
"Survey of Allied tank casualties in WWII"

https://web.archive.org/web/20190717223 ... 4/id/56035

Here is a video showing mortar damage to the running gear of Sherman tanks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nazV058SzQ

So the bottom line is that tanks could be damaged by mortars, rare and mostly repairable but it did happen.
mb4329
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:57 pm

Re: 2 inch mortar

Post by mb4329 »

Thanks for posting the link to "Survey of Allied tank casualties in WWII". It is a great document and provides some really useful data and analysis.
Emporer
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:37 pm

Re: 2 inch mortar

Post by Emporer »

edb1815 wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 3:52 pm
Emporer wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:25 pm
edb1815 wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 5:18 pm I recently got a bailed out result on a tank from a mortar hit. That could mean anything even slight damage to important systems, like optics. Mortars could also immobilize AFV with a hit on the running gear or tracks.

Granted this should be a rare occurrence like a roll of 2 etc.
Hi

Yes it happen in the game but in real world it doesn't happen. 2 inch caliber and even bigger mortars is far to small do any real damage on tanks or armored cars. This grenades is tiny and small and should be used against soft targets as they did in real.
Even to hit an open AFV moving is very difficult get a strike so you knock it out of action, but possible with luck and much skill...
Too many people playing war or strategy games without any military training think that some weapon can do unrealistically damage which would never happen in real world.
My point in this is that I want to play as real as it can gamewise. If people want to play fantasy games this shouldn't be the game for them.

Cheers

Captain Jack
Be careful using absolute terms. I did say mortar damage should be very rare and situational. I agree the 2" or US 60mm mortar is a very small amount of HE. Sorry for not being clearer but the in-game case I referenced was a stopped halftrack, so the crew was vulnerable to a lucky hit. I agree not a tank of course.

Mainly tanks getting hit by mortars would reduce the effectiveness by causing the crew to button up or cause running gear damage. However, there are documented cases of damage to the vehicles sufficient to disable them. Looking at tank losses mortar fire was 1%, so yes rare but it did happen.

Here is a source on WWII tank casualties and the causes of the losses:
"Survey of Allied tank casualties in WWII"

https://web.archive.org/web/20190717223 ... 4/id/56035

Here is a video showing mortar damage to the running gear of Sherman tanks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nazV058SzQ

So the bottom line is that tanks could be damaged by mortars, rare and mostly repairable but it did happen.
Interesting read but this didn't say much in the question other than it just proof my statement very well.
Remember when you talk about mortars there are a number of different caliber of them and the bigger caliber have better chance to make impact on the target. 1% on total damage to tanks was surprisingly few anyway.
To have 2 inch mortars to harm armored vehicles is just ridiculous, the grenade doesn't frankly have enough punch which are understandable with that small caliber. So the chance to knock out armored vehicles with this type of weapon should be removed from the game.

Note:
An interesting read is about when Paul Gräbner recon battalion was to attack from south end of the bridge, the British launched artillery fire on the column without do any real damage to the vehicles at all, and that was 75mm artillery grenades which are considerably much more powerful weapon.

Cheers
amhendrick
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed May 06, 2020 8:45 pm

Re: 2 inch mortar

Post by amhendrick »

I wondered about this too. I played through "10th SS Drops The Hammer" in anticipation of the next round of the tournament, and ALL of my tanks were knocked out by mortars. I think so anyway. I kept them out of sight of the anti-tank gun, and out of gun range of the infantry. In addition to the ability of the shell to do damage to a late-war tank like a Tiger or Panther, I wondered how hard it would be to simply hit a tank with a mortar. Could they be aimed that precisely?
edb1815
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:56 pm

Re: 2 inch mortar

Post by edb1815 »

Emporer wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 4:32 pm
edb1815 wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 3:52 pm
Emporer wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:25 pm
Hi

Yes it happen in the game but in real world it doesn't happen. 2 inch caliber and even bigger mortars is far to small do any real damage on tanks or armored cars. This grenades is tiny and small and should be used against soft targets as they did in real.
Even to hit an open AFV moving is very difficult get a strike so you knock it out of action, but possible with luck and much skill...
Too many people playing war or strategy games without any military training think that some weapon can do unrealistically damage which would never happen in real world.
My point in this is that I want to play as real as it can gamewise. If people want to play fantasy games this shouldn't be the game for them.

Cheers

Captain Jack
Be careful using absolute terms. I did say mortar damage should be very rare and situational. I agree the 2" or US 60mm mortar is a very small amount of HE. Sorry for not being clearer but the in-game case I referenced was a stopped halftrack, so the crew was vulnerable to a lucky hit. I agree not a tank of course.

Mainly tanks getting hit by mortars would reduce the effectiveness by causing the crew to button up or cause running gear damage. However, there are documented cases of damage to the vehicles sufficient to disable them. Looking at tank losses mortar fire was 1%, so yes rare but it did happen.

Here is a source on WWII tank casualties and the causes of the losses:
"Survey of Allied tank casualties in WWII"

https://web.archive.org/web/20190717223 ... 4/id/56035

Here is a video showing mortar damage to the running gear of Sherman tanks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nazV058SzQ

So the bottom line is that tanks could be damaged by mortars, rare and mostly repairable but it did happen.
Interesting read but this didn't say much in the question other than it just proof my statement very well.
Remember when you talk about mortars there are a number of different caliber of them and the bigger caliber have better chance to make impact on the target. 1% on total damage to tanks was surprisingly few anyway.
To have 2 inch mortars to harm armored vehicles is just ridiculous, the grenade doesn't frankly have enough punch which are understandable with that small caliber. So the chance to knock out armored vehicles with this type of weapon should be removed from the game.

Note:
An interesting read is about when Paul Gräbner recon battalion was to attack from south end of the bridge, the British launched artillery fire on the column without do any real damage to the vehicles at all, and that was 75mm artillery grenades which are considerably much more powerful weapon.

Cheers
I am currently playing the scenario 10 SS Drops the Hammer in the tournament. I have had 2 Mk IVs and a half track knocked out by the 2 inch mortars (confirmed by my opponent). Notwithstanding my comments above this is ridiculous! No wonder my opponent took care to knock out my mortars!

Two points:
1. The percentage chance of a hit and any damage by mortars on AFV in general should be very small as noted above. Open topped vehicles if hit may be different.
2. The game does not distinguish between types of damage it seems, your vehicle and crew are there or not. (Immobilization is possible I think).

I have to conclude the game is not granular enough, I know that the goal is simplicity, to allow weapons like the 2 inch mortar to have any effect on AFV. I have played games not much more complex than this which allow for bail out and crew morale effects as well as minor damage effects. (without getting to the ASL - Tigers OTH level).
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