Japanese First turn magic move taskforces not moving much

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AtParmentier
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Japanese First turn magic move taskforces not moving much

Post by AtParmentier »

Hello,
I was trying to move one of the combat task forces with special move from Samah to southern Philippines on turn one.
However the task force only moved 9 hexes. Not sure what's happening here.
Ops on turn 1 were 0, no changes were made to the task force. Movement set to direct.


Any suggestions?
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Re: Japanese First turn magic move taskforces not moving much

Post by RangerJoe »

Check the threat level. If the TF detects a threat such as a possibility of of an air attack, they may not move in if the threat level is "Normal" or lower.
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Re: Japanese First turn magic move taskforces not moving much

Post by BBfanboy »

You say it was a Combat TF. Did you change it to Bombardment? That type of TF has an attack profile that involves being able to dash to the target, bombard at night and retreat beyond air attack range afterward. Moving 9 hexes and stopping sounds like the TF is setting up for a bombardment attack next turn.
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Re: Japanese First turn magic move taskforces not moving much

Post by Trugrit »

Task Forces may curve around to avoid concentrated air threats.

Also, not all Japanese Task Forces have the special move.

What you want to look for is a special designation in the Task Force name. (*)
Also in the Editor.

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Re: Japanese First turn magic move taskforces not moving much

Post by Chris21wen »

Not magic moves, they represent the TFs sent to sea three or for days early. It gives Japan the ability to change planning without having to add extra lines of unneccessay code.

The max range a (*)TF can go on the first turn is 120 hexes. The actual distance depends upon it's speed and fuel. This works out very roughly to max cruise speed x5. The KB and it's oilers can move the full 120 hexes while a typical trans or amphib TB with liitle ships can move 55 hexes, again x5.

Even on the first turn a TF can be affected by air, subs or surface threats but generally it doesn't matter as the greater ranges overcome this problem. They can be attacked but not in my experience causing a course change so they don't reach the destination but can damage ships. They can also be attacked by sub or surface which can cause damage and, like air, if severe enough result it the damaged ship returning to port via an Escort TF.

As Trugrit said TF with a (*) are the only ones that get the movement bonus. The only way I've found to prevent this bonus is if you delete the TF directly or more all ships out. There's also the range limitation above.

You can move ships in and out, even those not already in a (*)TF, just don't leave the TF empty as it will disband and creating a new one means you lose the movement bonus.

You can also change everthing else, e.g. It's role, destination, routing etc. For instance in Scen #2 TF12 is a surface TF following TF88. You can change it's role to Amphibious and not follow setting it's destintion to Vigan itself. Then move some/all of the ships from TF88 into it. That way the Vigan invasion force arrives on the first turn not two days later.

You can also put unloaded transports into a (*)TF and load them with troops/supply and they, mostly anyway, arrive on the first turn but don't ask how many. I put 3xAK into a TF and loaded them with a arm recon unit. See pic

FInally you can meet and merge normal TFs with (*)TFs. Tricky as the (*)TF has to move within normal move range of it. Ususally 3-4 hexes, using a way point if neccessary. E.g. TF #4 can be changed to amphib and sent to Miri via a waypoint 3 or 4 hexes from Cam Ranh. That way the normal ampib TF#105 at Cam Ranh can be set to meeet and merge with it arriving turn one.
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AtParmentier
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Re: Japanese First turn magic move taskforces not moving much

Post by AtParmentier »

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The task force in question from another save. With the general settings except destination (Southern Philipines). Somehow it didn't move as far as it should.
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Re: Japanese First turn magic move taskforces not moving much

Post by Trugrit »

AtParmentier wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:03 pm Taskforce.png

The task force in question from another save. With the general settings except destination (Southern Philipines). Somehow it didn't move as far as it should.
You think that maybe it did what you asked it to do?

You have Retirement Allowed and Home Port set to Cam Ranh Bay.
You think it might have went to the Southern Philippines real fast and was just returning home?
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Re: Japanese First turn magic move taskforces not moving much

Post by AtParmentier »

No because it was still en route towards the objective.
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Re: Japanese First turn magic move taskforces not moving much

Post by RangerJoe »

For the TF routing, what is the threat tolerance level?
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Re: Japanese First turn magic move taskforces not moving much

Post by Trugrit »

I set it up using Scenario 1 with a destination above Dadjangas and it ended up in the Philippine Sea so it went all
the way around Luzon avoiding the air threats at Bataan and Cagayan.

It moved 29 hexes…routing set to normal

I set it up again with direct routing and it moved 29 hexes and ended up one hex off target.

It is obvious looking at both that the Ca is refueling the DD. Maybe more than once?

So it looks to me like a strange situation probably caused by the magic move in some way.

Or....that Task force does not really have the magic move.

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Re: Japanese First turn magic move taskforces not moving much

Post by Trugrit »

Actually the Japanese bonus is a magic move.

A 120 Hex move in one turn is much more like teleport.

I don’t have a problem with the magic move on the first turn as long as it is used within a
historical or even a reasonable move context. I don’t have a problem with re-structuring
Amphibious task forces that have the magic move or sending them to other destinations or
merging them as long as it is in historical context…..or what is agreed upon by both players.

I do have a major problem with what the magic move can mean for Amphibious and strike task forces
using much longer ranges…..the full movement bonus.

Used in a PBEM game it can be used to sucker punch a new player.
Used in a game against the AI it will break the AI script.

It allows the KB to position off Manila and sink multiple Allied subs or to position off
San Diego and sink the Saratoga on turn one.

It allows the Japanese Amphibious Task Forces located at Samah to invade Noumea in two to four days.
Those Amphibious Task forces can move a lot further than 55 hexes the first turn.

In other words….the first turn contains some dangerous magic sea dragons that I have posted on before.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6#p4544266

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1#p4507201

In many cases in PBEM house rules are agreed to by both players before play.
One of those typical house rules is that the Japanese player does not hunt Allied carriers on the first turn.
This is because the Japanese player knows where the Allied carriers are at game start.

The Japanese player also knows where the Saratoga is and that Manila contains multiple Allied subs.
He also knows at game start where every Allied base and Allied force is located.

The main thing is that players know about this and can adjust play if needed.

My view is that the game is about long term strategy not quick stunts.
I don’t use the Mersing Gambit on turn one…..Turn two is fine as it gives the Allied player
a chance to adjust to that possibility.

After you get through the first turn everything will settle down hopefully for a good game experience.
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Re: Japanese First turn magic move taskforces not moving much

Post by Chris21wen »

Trugrit wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:34 pm Actually the Japanese bonus is a magic move.
............
I repeat what I said before, not a magic move it represents the TFs sent to sea earlier.

I do agree that it is possible to carry out unrealistic if not stupid moves as you have listed above which is why a simple house rule restricting range works. Playing I do disagree with the Manila attack that is viable, it is closer than PH. Singas is also viable although further, who to say the KB couldn't be located in southern Japan for an intended attack there.

The real problem with the opening moves, (*)TF or not, is sending transports way beyond air cover particularly in the S China Sea area. Attacks in the vaste Pacific on the other hand could be carried out at greater distances as PH proved, but not sending transports way beyond any pssoble support is not sensible. The Japanese where cautious, they didn't know where all the Allied units where or how they would perform in combat. We have this knowledge so ask youself, would you send a TF to attack the West coast or India as the opening moves.

I've often wondered what the US reaction would have been if Japan had not attacked any US targets and concentrated on ABDA targets only. Interesting scenarios?
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Re: Japanese First turn magic move taskforces not moving much

Post by Trugrit »

Chris21wen wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 6:33 am
Trugrit wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:34 pm Actually the Japanese bonus is a magic move.
............
I repeat what I said before, not a magic move it represents the TFs sent to sea earlier.

I do agree that it is possible to carry out unrealistic if not stupid moves as you have listed above which is why a simple house rule restricting range works. Playing I do disagree with the Manila attack that is viable, it is closer than PH. Singas is also viable although further, who to say the KB couldn't be located in southern Japan for an intended attack there.

The real problem with the opening moves, (*)TF or not, is sending transports way beyond air cover particularly in the S China Sea area. Attacks in the vaste Pacific on the other hand could be carried out at greater distances as PH proved, but not sending transports way beyond any pssoble support is not sensible. The Japanese where cautious, they didn't know where all the Allied units where or how they would perform in combat. We have this knowledge so ask youself, would you send a TF to attack the West coast or India as the opening moves.

I've often wondered what the US reaction would have been if Japan had not attacked any US targets and concentrated on ABDA targets only. Interesting scenarios?
You approach the game from a pure game standpoint. I can respect that.

There was a forum member whose moniker was “Chickenboy”. Maybe he is still around I hope so.

I disagreed with him on several issues but I would like to see him back on the forum.
He added a lot to almost every area of discussion.

He once posted that he did not understand why any Allied player would allow the first turn
Surprise attack on Pearl Harbor. From a pure game standpoint he was correct. He approached the
game from a pure game standpoint and that was a reason I disagreed with him on some issues.

The reason that Allied players allow the Japanese player to sucker punch them at Pearl Harbor
on the first turn is that it is “historical”. The Allied player says you take the first punch, I know it
is coming and I’m O.K. with it. A wargamer like me likes historical wargames.

You throw a surprise punch against me at Manila because you are going to pretend the KB left port
and was underway for many days and I am going to pretend that I am stupid and had everything
in the Pacific standing down and did not detect that at all.

I say that is not “historical”. There is nothing in the manual, and I have searched it, that says
anywhere that I have to pretend that I’m stupid.

Many years ago I had an opponent for several PBEM games. We were talking about the game
and the forum and different things and he said that he had played against Bill Brown.

He said that Bill Brown had told him before the game started that he would use every exploit,
every trick in the book, gamey shortcut etc….to beat him in the game.

We both agreed that we could respect that. Bill Brown was an upfront guy.

All I’m saying is be an upfront guy. Tell your opponent about the first turn before the game
and what can happen to him. Take the time to make sure he understands.

Then if he turns out to be stupid or wants to pretend that he is stupid that is fine.
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Re: Japanese First turn magic move taskforces not moving much

Post by RangerJoe »

I have been in contact with Chickenboy on Facebook on one occasion.

The problem for the Americans for Pearl Harbor would be the detection of any incoming fleet the night before any attack. It would have taken hundred of aircraft to be able to search out to the distance needed to detect the incoming fleet before night fell. The aircraft would be landing at night and then other would have to be in the air searching in the morning at various distances to detect the fleet. Think of just how far the enemy fleet could travel at high speed in one night after fully refueling every ship in the task force and launching aircraft in the dark or just before dawn. The US did not have that many aircraft in Hawaii plus the crews needed training. Think of the maintenance needs both in equipment and manpower when the US was at peace in the Pacific and there were serious needs in the Atlantic.

Also for Hawaii, their Purple decoding machine was taken away and not replaced. The Hawaiian commands were not given all of the intercepted intelligence that was available but rather constant "war warnings" which later aren't taken seriously. Just like the girl that kept on calling for help because she was "drowning" but her mother and others ignored her when she really was in trouble and needing help. Her younger brother was my best friend growing up.
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Re: Japanese First turn magic move taskforces not moving much

Post by Trugrit »

Joe,

I agree with the fact that spotting task forces in the Pacific is very difficult.
The Japanese did not spot the Doolittle raid and they were at war at the time.
They did not think it was possible.

I agree with all the points you have made but you missed a point……one that you know about.

We did spot the raid.

The Radar station located on Oahu spotted the incoming raid at 7:02 AM.
Nothing was done about it…..Command thought it was B-17’s.

The first wave struck at 7:40 AM with the coordinated attack starting at 7:55.

Most historians agree that an alarm 40 min. sooner may have saved some lives but
would not have made a big difference on the outcome.
https://pearlharbor.org/warning-went-unheeded/

The timeline is interesting…...If they had sounded the Alarm on the sub attack…..?
https://www.britannica.com/study/timeli ... arl-harbor

The original Radar Plot is interesting to look at.
https://www.visitthecapitol.gov/artifac ... ber-7-1941

But…..we are off topic and have not solved the OP’s question.

I might work on it some more….
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Re: Japanese First turn magic move taskforces not moving much

Post by RangerJoe »

Trugrit wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 3:34 pm Joe,

I agree with the fact that spotting task forces in the Pacific is very difficult.
The Japanese did not spot the Doolittle raid and they were at war at the time.
They did not think it was possible.

I agree with all the points you have made but you missed a point……one that you know about.

We did spot the raid.

The Radar station located on Oahu spotted the incoming raid at 7:02 AM.
Nothing was done about it…..Command thought it was B-17’s.

The first wave struck at 7:40 AM with the coordinated attack starting at 7:55.

Most historians agree that an alarm 40 min. sooner may have saved some lives but
would not have made a big difference on the outcome.
https://pearlharbor.org/warning-went-unheeded/

The timeline is interesting…...If they had sounded the Alarm on the sub attack…..?
https://www.britannica.com/study/timeli ... arl-harbor


The original Radar Plot is interesting to look at.
https://www.visitthecapitol.gov/artifac ... ber-7-1941

But…..we are off topic and have not solved the OP’s question.

I might work on it some more….
I do know about the radar warning as well as the USS Ward.

Radar was new and the butterbar did not know how to handle the report other than to state that it was probably the B-17s. He probably did not plot the incoming aircraft on a map and then ask for guidance when something did not look correct. The Radar was also new technology and many people did not trust it to the extent that they should have. That plot does not come out that well, it is shrunk extensively but I have seen it and others before as well.

The USS Ward was staffed primarily with US Naval Reservists. I don't know where the first gun that fired on the sub is but the second gun is at the Minnesota capitol in Saint Paul, Minnesota, because that is where those US Naval Reservists were from. I am sure that being from that area that their other than military sea time would be rather limited since other than lakes, the Minnesota River, the Mississippi River (which is not all that large there) as well as other rivers and creeks such as the "laughing water" creek better known as the Minnehaha creek, there is not much of any sea or ocean available in that area.

The Japanese Navy also switched the call signs of their aircraft carriers if not the rest of the Kido Butai with destroyers that stayed in the Home Waters. Unless signal intelligence also went by the radio operators "hand" if they bothered with such a detail and noted the difference, the higher intelligence would not know that the call signs were switched. The radio operators "hand" that I am referring to is the way that the operator keys the radio and the difference may be difficult to detect. If there was an electro-mechanical machine at that time to do the dots and dashes, I do not know of it.

But more important was the attitude of the leadership and their threat perceptions. They did not believe that the Japanese would attack Pearl Harbor so they did not defend against that. Most especially against torpedo bombers since Pearl Harbor is shallow although the British at Taranto showed the world how it could be done. That attitude has since changed.

But going back to the topic, try it again with "direct and absolute" routing and no refueling and see what happens.
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Re: Japanese First turn magic move taskforces not moving much

Post by Trugrit »

I’ve tried several runs. Absolute does not make a difference that I can see.

I think the Do not Refuel switch is only operational at base hexes.
Ships at sea in task forces will still pull fuel from each other.
I don’t remember?….I think this is true.

It does look like the magic move is point driven. You give the task force a destination
in the open ocean or a base hex and it will go to that hex, drop the magic move status
then stop and wait there for the next turn before it will move toward home port.

Sometimes it won’t go all the way to the destination, I don’t know why, but it will stop short
and wait for the next turn to continue. When it stops short it drops it’s special magic
move status before it continues on to the destination hex. In this case it will turn around at the
destination hex and head for home port.

As far as I can see any refuel does not cause this.

So it appears that what the OP posted can happen.

I’ve never examined the magic move because I don’t consider it a valid tactic
to use outside of the historical context.

But….I did discover some other things that are disturbing:

I put this together in about 40 min. (Picture below)
Using Scenario 1 Head to Head.

If the Japanese player diverts all of the Magic Move Task Forces
To launch an Amphibious invasion of Palembang on first turn.

The Japanese took a lot of casualties because there were
2 British CL’s in the hex and the ground troops were not
Prepared but the Japanese still got a lot ashore almost 800 AV.

Just a side note: Almost none of the ground units in the magic move
Task forces are prepared for the target.

The Japanese get an unload bonus early war.

The KB was moved in to give air cover.
The KB can move all the way from Etorofu to position off Palembang in one turn.

In any case…..The Japanese capture Palembang on turn 2
with just one Deliberate attack.

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Re: Japanese First turn magic move taskforces not moving much

Post by Chris21wen »

Trugrit wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:31 pm I set it up using Scenario 1 with a destination above Dadjangas and it ended up in the Philippine Sea so it went all
the way around Luzon avoiding the air threats at Bataan and Cagayan.

It moved 29 hexes…routing set to normal

I set it up again with direct routing and it moved 29 hexes and ended up one hex off target.

It is obvious looking at both that the Ca is refueling the DD. Maybe more than once?

So it looks to me like a strange situation probably caused by the magic move in some way.

Or....that Task force does not really have the magic move.
Which TF was it?

Not related to problem, most don't allow landing on anything other than a base. If you do you can land anywhere which in real life is impossible due to terrainthus making it too easy to carry out amphib landings and impossible to defend.
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Re: Japanese First turn magic move taskforces not moving much

Post by Chris21wen »

Trugrit wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:32 am I’ve tried several runs. Absolute does not make a difference that I can see.

I think the Do not Refuel switch is only operational at base hexes.
Ships at sea in task forces will still pull fuel from each other.
I don’t remember?….I think this is true.

It does look like the magic move is point driven. You give the task force a destination
in the open ocean or a base hex and it will go to that hex, drop the magic move status
then stop and wait there for the next turn before it will move toward home port.

Sometimes it won’t go all the way to the destination, I don’t know why, but it will stop short
and wait for the next turn to continue. When it stops short it drops it’s special magic
move status before it continues on to the destination hex. In this case it will turn around at the
destination hex and head for home port.

As far as I can see any refuel does not cause this.
'.....
Again what TF?

I don't disagree with anything you said. Basically you can change the destination but once the 1st turn is complete the (*) move is done, you can however set waypoints. If you move all ships out and create a new TF with the same number the (*) is done.

As to invading Palambang 1st turn, yes you can do it but the Japanese would never have done that, you have to go passed fortress Singapore. They could have sent the KB as support but it would still have been a very dangerous operation.

You can set up house rules to prevent such invasions.
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Re: Japanese First turn magic move taskforces not moving much

Post by Trugrit »

Again what TF?

I don't disagree with anything you said. Basically you can change the destination but once the 1st turn is complete the (*) move is done, you can however set waypoints. If you move all ships out and create a new TF with the same number the (*) is done.

As to invading Palambang 1st turn, yes you can do it but the Japanese would never have done that, you have to go passed fortress Singapore. They could have sent the KB as support but it would still have been a very dangerous operation.

You can set up house rules to prevent such invasions.
[/quote]

Japanese Task Force 4 with the destination Hex shown.

Yes the Japanese would have never gone direct to Palembang.
The Japanese would not have taken the KB there because they would have been detected.

The Japanese took the KB to Pearl Harbor because they wanted to get the American carriers.
The carriers were not in port. The Japanese went back to get them at Midway but it did
not work out for them.

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