Context Matters

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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actrade
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Context Matters

Post by actrade »

Having read all of the posts regarding Matrix's new policy, there are a couple of things I'd like to point out. One, context matters. The picture posted of the fruit that looked exactly like a woman's vagina with a note "remind you of anything" is clearly meant to show a woman's vagina and inappropriate for a WWII game forum, I don't care if it's off topic or not. I certainly would not want my wife/daughter walking up behind me with that post there. Anyone who says different is hiding behind calls of censorship, which I adamantly oppose. Two, Matrix has decided to descend down a slippery slope that we see happening across the globe, where "fact checkers" decide what's true/untrue, but who checks the checkers? Three, back to my first point about context. Do historical-based nose art pictures belong in a WWII-based game? Of course they do, it's part of history. Do modern nose art pictures that would have been deemed pornographic in WWII belong...that I'm not so sure.

Rewriting history so it passes today's politically correct standards is simply wrong. How does one learn from history if one rewrites it? I think it is a mistake on Matrix's part to censor anything that can legitimately have come from history. For example, I use one of the swastika flag mods in WiTE2, not because I'm a Nazi or a sympathizer, but because I'm a history buff and it takes away from my immersion to see the Iron Cross flag. I understand it used to be illegal in Germany, but not anymore. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45142651

I would also point out that the hammer and sickle killed more people that the swastika did as both were run by sociopathic monsters, yet there's never any issue with that. Changing history is very, very dangerous as it allows those changing to also change or rewrite out the atrocities as well.


While I have no issue with Matrix trying to apply some standards, I would caution them that their customer base is largely history buffs like myself. I for one, am not interested in games that have "sanitized" to the point that they no longer represent historical facts and while pictures on women on planes may not be PC today, they were in fact history. I would ask that Matrix at least consider using a historical lense when deciding what is pornographic or objectifying women. I spent 6 years in the USAF as an Arabic translator and as one post noted, there are parts of this world where a women in shorts is pornographic so we need to be very careful when heading down this path.
Ian R
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RE: Context Matters

Post by Ian R »

I think that is a good post with plenty of good discussion points. Having said that ...

If this is not the sort of discussion that matrix wants appearing on these forums, then so be it.

That leaves us old forum members two choices. First, we can stay here and whine about it. That is not going to get us anywhere, to be realistic.

Secondly, we can just pack our kitbag and go somewhere else. That's a lot simpler, and de-escalates the friction.

I'm all in favour of respecting matrix's views about how they administer their website; I also want to have forum where you can have robust discussion.

So I guess I'll have to take door two.
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actrade
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RE: Context Matters

Post by actrade »

If a civil post discussing the merits of Matrix's decision gets locked, I'll be right behind you.
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mattj78
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RE: Context Matters

Post by mattj78 »

ORIGINAL: actrade

Having read all of the posts regarding Matrix's new policy, there are a couple of things I'd like to point out. One, context matters. The picture posted of the fruit that looked exactly like a woman's vagina with a note "remind you of anything" is clearly meant to show a woman's vagina and inappropriate for a WWII game forum, I don't care if it's off topic or not. I certainly would not want my wife/daughter walking up behind me with that post there. Anyone who says different is hiding behind calls of censorship, which I adamantly oppose. Two, Matrix has decided to descend down a slippery slope that we see happening across the globe, where "fact checkers" decide what's true/untrue, but who checks the checkers? Three, back to my first point about context. Do historical-based nose art pictures belong in a WWII-based game? Of course they do, it's part of history. Do modern nose art pictures that would have been deemed pornographic in WWII belong...that I'm not so sure.

Rewriting history so it passes today's politically correct standards is simply wrong. How does one learn from history if one rewrites it? I think it is a mistake on Matrix's part to censor anything that can legitimately have come from history. For example, I use one of the swastika flag mods in WiTE2, not because I'm a Nazi or a sympathizer, but because I'm a history buff and it takes away from my immersion to see the Iron Cross flag. I understand it used to be illegal in Germany, but not anymore. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45142651

I would also point out that the hammer and sickle killed more people that the swastika did as both were run by sociopathic monsters, yet there's never any issue with that. Changing history is very, very dangerous as it allows those changing to also change or rewrite out the atrocities as well.


While I have no issue with Matrix trying to apply some standards, I would caution them that their customer base is largely history buffs like myself. I for one, am not interested in games that have "sanitized" to the point that they no longer represent historical facts and while pictures on women on planes may not be PC today, they were in fact history. I would ask that Matrix at least consider using a historical lense when deciding what is pornographic or objectifying women. I spent 6 years in the USAF as an Arabic translator and as one post noted, there are parts of this world where a women in shorts is pornographic so we need to be very careful when heading down this path.
this is a very good post matrix should take note
mind_messing
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RE: Context Matters

Post by mind_messing »

The collective effort that some on the forum are making to try and justify this is really quite something.

The issue is less the images per se, but the motivations behind posting them. It's certainly not historical appreciation.

This post-hoc attempt to dress up such content under the banner of "appreciating history" is a clear fabrication intended to blur the actual motivations.
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mattj78
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RE: Context Matters

Post by mattj78 »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The collective effort that some on the forum are making to try and justify this is really quite something.

The issue is less the images per se, but the motivations behind posting them. It's certainly not historical appreciation.

This post-hoc attempt to dress up such content under the banner of "appreciating history" is a clear fabrication intended to blur the actual motivations.
I get what you are saying and partly I don't disagree it should of been handled differently the poster should be notified and the post taken down to tar us with all the same brush and remove a whole thread is poor the pic in question is in poor taste and should have been removed but some of the other pictures especially the nose art and drawings I think matrix has gone overboard
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Edmon
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RE: Context Matters

Post by Edmon »

I honestly feel that (and Erik can correct me), if you posted a pin-up picture and explained who the woman involved was, what her role in the war was, when it was taken, how close she got to the frontlines to entertain the troopers, etc. If you gave a whole historical context to a picture, what it meant, etc. If you truly made it about the history, I doubt it would be seen as an issue. Of course it would depend on how explicit it is, but if you wrote an essay on someone's role in the war and that role was glam model, I think that would be allowed to stay. I can only attest that I would not be the one to close it, at the very least.

That is not what was in the thread I closed.

What content to allow and not to allow, both on the forums and in games, is a delicate balance that can never please everyone. It is a balance we also hope we are getting right and we do rely on your feedback to make adjustments. Games can never be full and real to the history because real war is full of horror and I think most agree that they do not want to see that when they get home from work and fire up a wargame.
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DesertWolf101
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RE: Context Matters

Post by DesertWolf101 »

I agree with both actrade and m_m on this one. I think the approach could have been done a bit more tactfully and this whole issue is definitely a slippery slope. To Edmon's credit though he has sought to patiently clarify the moderation involved in the face of some vile and uncalled for attacks.

In line with what m_m is alluding to however, I will claim that no one here has the slightest doubt where the motivation behind many (but certainly not all) of the posts is coming from. To say otherwise is denying the obvious. Would any of us want our daughters, sisters, wives or mothers to see such imagery on the forum? I think we all want an inclusive environment here. Objectifying half of the human race in distasteful manner is not a step in that direction. I doubt many of us would be keen to see numerous imagery of sexualized males or phalic depictions either...

Now having said that, depictions of some nose art or even historical pinups is fine in my books - within context.
Ian R
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RE: Context Matters

Post by Ian R »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The collective effort that some on the forum are making to try and justify this is really quite something.

The issue is less the images per se, *but the motivations behind posting them. It's certainly not historical appreciation.

This post-hoc attempt to dress up such content under the banner of "appreciating history" is a clear fabrication intended to blur the actual motivations*.

So, you agree then, that those of us who like looking at nose art should leave this forum, and go somewhere else?

Incidentally, the asterisked section above bespeaks a process of generalised subjective assessment on your part. We could probably label that "poster subject profiling".
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mind_messing
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RE: Context Matters

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The collective effort that some on the forum are making to try and justify this is really quite something.

The issue is less the images per se, *but the motivations behind posting them. It's certainly not historical appreciation.

This post-hoc attempt to dress up such content under the banner of "appreciating history" is a clear fabrication intended to blur the actual motivations*.

So, you agree then, that those of us who like looking at nose art should leave this forum, and go somewhere else?

If it's a topic that you've such a deep interest in, then I would suggest exploring the approach suggested by Edmon in post #7.
Incidentally, the asterisked section above bespeaks a process of generalised subjective assessment on your part. We could probably label that "poster subject profiling".

I could respond with a wider comment on:

A) treatment of women in general in video game communities.
B) demographics of the wargaming community in particular.
C) gender views associated with the those demographic groups.

You make take the view that the above would be a generalised subjective assessment and subject profiling. To do so would neglect a significant academic literature exploring this topic. Granted, much of that tends to focus around the Games Workshop IPs, but I'd argue that in the essence that's not a million miles from the likes of AE.

Additionally, you'd be neglecting the fact that a significant proportion of the games community is 1) male, 2) white and 3) over 50.

the1henson
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RE: Context Matters

Post by the1henson »

The issue doesn’t appear to be pictures. It’s a sense of ownership. People who have spent literally decades on this community feel like it belongs to them. The reality, though, is that this is a business. The site is branded, and its content reflects on Matrix. They have not only the right, but the responsibility to monitor their brand’s image. For better or worse, this is what they chose.

It’s the difference between a bunch of guys talking in someone’s garage, and a bunch of guys talking in a fast food restaurant. If the discussion gets rowdy, in the garage it’s the guys who decide what’s acceptable. In the public forum, that choice isn’t theirs to make.
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad. - Miles Kington
Ian R
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RE: Context Matters

Post by Ian R »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing



Additionally, you'd be neglecting the fact that a significant proportion of the games community is 1) male, 2) white and 3) over 50.


So, you are relying on gender, race, and age profiling?


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Ian R
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RE: Context Matters

Post by Ian R »

ORIGINAL: the1henson

The issue doesn’t appear to be pictures. It’s a sense of ownership. People who have spent literally decades on this community feel like it belongs to them. The reality, though, is that this is a business. The site is branded, and its content reflects on Matrix. They have not only the right, but the responsibility to monitor their brand’s image. For better or worse, this is what they chose.

It’s the difference between a bunch of guys talking in someone’s garage, and a bunch of guys talking in a fast food restaurant. If the discussion gets rowdy, in the garage it’s the guys who decide what’s acceptable. In the public forum, that choice isn’t theirs to make.

I agree with this. We should respect matrix' views about the site.

If we don't enjoy the forum anymore, then its time to move on.

This doesn't have to be a process that involves an escalating level of anger and angst and other emotions.

We just go somewhere else more suitable.

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btd64
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RE: Context Matters

Post by btd64 »

I discussed this whole thing with my wife last night. I have 2 daughters. My oldest daughter likes history and seen the nose art. My wife and daughters have no problem with nose art. The over the top sexual stuff is wrong, but nose art and the like was a moral booster for the troops. I think that a common ground needs to be found. It's the only way....GP
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littleike
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RE: Context Matters

Post by littleike »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The collective effort that some on the forum are making to try and justify this is really quite something.

The issue is less the images per se, but the motivations behind posting them. It's certainly not historical appreciation.

This post-hoc attempt to dress up such content under the banner of "appreciating history" is a clear fabrication intended to blur the actual motivations.

To be extremely clear:

I consider a pin up a non pornographic, non toxic, nor prohibited image, been that posted on the side of a bomber or exposed on a calendar hanging on a wall of a house and i don't want to mask this under historical motivations.

So until Matrix will not be of the same advice i will be forced to stay away.


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mind_messing
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RE: Context Matters

Post by mind_messing »


ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: mind_messing



Additionally, you'd be neglecting the fact that a significant proportion of the games community is 1) male, 2) white and 3) over 50.


So, you are relying on gender, race, and age profiling?

Not at all, just basic social psychology. The demographics of the wargaming community are well known, and with that comes a set of associations with a whole range of factors, same as any other group that you'd care to define.

What we're seeing here is the power of normative social influence establishing a particular pattern of behaviour, and the resulting backlash when such a behaviour is challenged.
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mattj78
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RE: Context Matters

Post by mattj78 »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: mind_messing



Additionally, you'd be neglecting the fact that a significant proportion of the games community is 1) male, 2) white and 3) over 50.


So, you are relying on gender, race, and age profiling?

Not at all, just basic social psychology. The demographics of the wargaming community are well known, and with that comes a set of associations with a whole range of factors, same as any other group that you'd care to define.

What we're seeing here is the power of normative social influence establishing a particular pattern of behaviour, and the resulting backlash when such a behaviour is challenged.
maybe where you live that may be the case i live in sydney my local war gaming shop is anything but old and white and its a very good community
Panjack
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RE: Context Matters

Post by Panjack »

The issue in my eyes is how to treat people--even those not present--with dignity and without objectifying them.

This is quite different from being worried about pornography. Words and images can inappropriately objectify people without the images or words being pornographic.

Someone who dismisses a desire to reduce the objectification and sexualization of people as being driven by “wokeness” and “political correctness” allows such a person to avoid the real issue (treating people with dignity) by shifting the discussion to ad hominem.

At the end of WWII, my father wrote a history of his bomber group. In the whole 40,000-word book, the number of references to nose art: one. Of the many photos in the book, the number that showed the sort of nose art people like to post here: zero. The heightened concern with nose art seen here is rewriting about what was important in history, at least to those experiencing it.

Those who defend the posting of images that objectify women might then ask themselves why of all the thousands of types of historical artifacts from WWII, it is images of women that they often want to post. And, at the same time, they might ask themselves why of all the thousands of other possible images from the current day, it is often scantily clad women that often get posted. This suggests that something is going on more than mere concern with history.

In any case, Matrix should be concerned whether a company-controlled forum that permits the objectification and sexualization of women produces a hostile workplace for women working at Matrix. Given that workplaces now blend physical and virtual components, I imagine that the issue of the relationship of a company-owned forum to the company workplace is an open question.
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RE: Context Matters

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: mind_messing



Additionally, you'd be neglecting the fact that a significant proportion of the games community is 1) male, 2) white and 3) over 50.


So, you are relying on gender, race, and age profiling?

Not at all, just basic social psychology. The demographics of the wargaming community are well known, and with that comes a set of associations with a whole range of factors, same as any other group that you'd care to define.

What we're seeing here is the power of normative social influence establishing a particular pattern of behaviour, and the resulting backlash when such a behaviour is challenged.

You commentary is interesting when you make a comment that I have violated laws in certain parts of the world yet you offer no proof of such when I asked for it. I am calling on Edmon, Eric Rutin, and/or Iain McNeil publicly to ban you permanently for making such unsubstantiated claims and ignoring my request for such proof.
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mind_messing
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RE: Context Matters

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: mattj78

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


ORIGINAL: Ian R




So, you are relying on gender, race, and age profiling?

Not at all, just basic social psychology. The demographics of the wargaming community are well known, and with that comes a set of associations with a whole range of factors, same as any other group that you'd care to define.

What we're seeing here is the power of normative social influence establishing a particular pattern of behaviour, and the resulting backlash when such a behaviour is challenged.
maybe where you live that may be the case i live in sydney my local war gaming shop is anything but old and white and its a very good community


Worth exploring some of the links in the article below:

https://analoggamestudies.org/2018/12/a ... eek-games/

Feel free to take umbrage with some of the wider findings, but the demographic section is not misaligned to my comments, in so far as the trend for older white males certainly holds firm.

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


ORIGINAL: Ian R




So, you are relying on gender, race, and age profiling?

Not at all, just basic social psychology. The demographics of the wargaming community are well known, and with that comes a set of associations with a whole range of factors, same as any other group that you'd care to define.

What we're seeing here is the power of normative social influence establishing a particular pattern of behaviour, and the resulting backlash when such a behaviour is challenged.

You commentary is interesting when you make a comment that I have violated laws in certain parts of the world yet you offer no proof of such when I asked for it. I am calling on Edmon, Eric Rutin, and/or Iain McNeil publicly to ban you permanently for making such unsubstantiated claims and ignoring my request for such proof.

To be frank, when the forum denizen with a known penchant for posting swastikas publicly calls for me to be banned, I'm taking that as an indication I'm doing something right.
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