Ground ops

[nukkxx5058]

Hi, I really like the direction taken by the devs to develop ground ops and I'm enjoying a lot using my army! But of course, there are still a lot of things to do to continue to improve this part of the game.

Do you know if land ops are going to be further developed and what improvement are be expected next ? Did the devs communicate about this ?

Thanks

[hrfepo1]

I have the same questions. For the record, I love this simulation!

[SunlitZelkova]

I recall seeing somewhere they plan to eventually add a few new things.

The only "confirmed" thing is ground units being able to use the roads found on the associated overlay layer. This was mentioned in the info article about ground ops when CMO first came out.

Two things I have noticed recently-

1. More detailed land facilities in the CWDB. New singular personnel, units to represent ammo caches, small huts, tunnel entrances, with an eye towards Vietnam scenarios
2. More infantry weapons in the DB3000. It doesn't appear to be part of any unit, but a 9mm pistol is present as a weapon in the database, and recently a generic anti-personnel/sniper rifle unit was added.

[nukkxx5058]

ORIGINAL: SunlitZelkova

I recall seeing somewhere they plan to eventually add a few new things.

The only "confirmed" thing is ground units being able to use the roads found on the associated overlay layer. This was mentioned in the info article about ground ops when CMO first came out.

Two things I have noticed recently-

1. More detailed land facilities in the CWDB. New singular personnel, units to represent ammo caches, small huts, tunnel entrances, with an eye towards Vietnam scenarios
2. More infantry weapons in the DB3000. It doesn't appear to be part of any unit, but a 9mm pistol is present as a weapon in the database, and recently a generic anti-personnel/sniper rifle unit was added.

Sounds great !! This sim is monumental and is becoming even more monumental !

[1nutworld]

ORIGINAL: nukkxx5058

Sounds great !! This sim is monumental and is becoming even more monumental !

Gee, are you sure?? Jannas might argue the point.....[:D]

Sorry!

I hope my comment doesn't encourage him to continue his ridiculous, nauseating, obnoxious belligerence

[KnightHawk75]

ORIGINAL: SunlitZelkova

I recall seeing somewhere they plan to eventually add a few new things.

The only "confirmed" thing is ground units being able to use the roads found on the associated overlay layer. This was mentioned in the info article about ground ops when CMO first came out.

Two things I have noticed recently-

1. More detailed land facilities in the CWDB. New singular personnel, units to represent ammo caches, small huts, tunnel entrances, with an eye towards Vietnam scenarios
2. More infantry weapons in the DB3000. It doesn't appear to be part of any unit, but a 9mm pistol is present as a weapon in the database, and recently a generic anti-personnel/sniper rifle unit was added.

3. In the last few db3k's you'll also notice the addition of DataGroundUnit tables, where ground units appear separated from Facilities, along with capabilities,categories, etc more geared toward mobile ground units vs current facilities model. Can't as of yet addunit type=ground though. I've been assuming it's still WIP, or been added for another version and no point in having separate dbs.

[ParachuteProne]

If we could just slow or bog down an attacker that would be huge, but they aren't ready do do Zones of control yet I believe.

[nukkxx5058]

I hope that ground movement will be improved and terrain better taken in account. Sometimes units are making large detour, probably due to difficult terrain (but it's unclear why exactly and we dn't know it before confirming the order, which is an issue in PBEM). Sometimes it's quite weird why the unit has to make a detour (like in the Libya desert where the ground looks rather flat). I beleive this is part of the general pathfinding issue (have similar problems with ships/subs)

Having the possibility to force ground units to move straight (but for instance at reduced speed if the terrain is difficiult) would be cool.

Also, Being able to move at creep speed for armoured and motorized units would be cool too. At present, I think there's just one single possible speed.

Well, lots of possible improvement but we are clearly on the right path !

[kevinkins]

Are most ground units still at platoon level? Given the size of CMO maps, I think this is too small and would like to try out a beta with company or even larger sized units in a future beta. Damage to a battalion would almost like calculating the damage to a ship. Multiple strikes needed to disable it. These larger units just need to be generic to start with.

[nukkxx5058]

ORIGINAL: kevinkins

Are most ground units still at platoon level? Given the size of CMO maps, I think this is too small and would like to try out a beta with company or even larger sized units in a future beta. Damage to a battalion would almost like calculating the damage to a ship. Multiple strikes needed to disable it. These larger units just need to be generic to start with.

I think so, yes. I agree that having battaillon/brigade and even divisions would be fab !

So far we need so many units that it sucks CPU performance.
I'm grouping units but my CPU is agonizing ...

[Dimitris]

ORIGINAL: nukkxx5058
Having the possibility to force ground units to move straight (but for instance at reduced speed if the terrain is difficiult) would be cool.

IIRC there is a doctrine option to enforce this?

[nukkxx5058]

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

ORIGINAL: nukkxx5058
Having the possibility to force ground units to move straight (but for instance at reduced speed if the terrain is difficiult) would be cool.

IIRC there is a doctrine option to enforce this?

There is a "shortest route" option but the menu has only one possible choice (shortest route). So it doesn't look like it's actually implemented for land units. For naval the menu has several possible choices (littoral, shortest,deep water, etc).

[Kushan04]

ORIGINAL: nukkxx5058
I think so, yes. I agree that having battaillon/brigade and even divisions would be fab !

As of DB491 there are a number of generic ground units that range from company to brigade. Their "blank", meaning that they only contain a single mount. It's intended that the scenario designer adds mounts to build them out however they want.

[boogabooga]

ORIGINAL: Kushan04

ORIGINAL: nukkxx5058
I think so, yes. I agree that having battaillon/brigade and even divisions would be fab !

As of DB491 there are a number of generic ground units that range from company to brigade. Their "blank", meaning that they only contain a single mount. It's intended that the scenario designer adds mounts to build them out however they want.

Right, but doesn't that mean that an entire "regiment" or whatever could be taken out with one GBU hit?

I think a main problem with ground ops is that "infantry" behave like land gunboats (a handful of MG and heavy weapon mounts that all move together). There is no sense that there are dozens or hundreds of individuals that scatter, take cover, storm buildings, etc. At least, not without a LOT of Lua and some imagination.

[BeirutDude]

And right now the ground units just can’t take advantage of terrain. So really they’re just targets, unless they’re a specialist unit like SSM, SAM, Radar, etc.

[1nutworld]

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

And right now the ground units just can’t take advantage of terrain. So really they’re just targets, unless they’re a specialist unit like SSM, SAM, Radar, etc.

Makes me wonder if the decision to drop "Naval" from the Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations title wasn't a poor decision, in retrospect. Taking that from the name and the decision to spend more time developing 'ground force' tactics wasn't a poor choice. This sim was never going to be good enough to be a "ground pounder' game, not without becoming something that one would need a CRAY to run.

[nukkxx5058]

There's room for improvement but we are clearly going in the right direction IMHO. They just need more time, which is OK for me.

[Kushan04]

ORIGINAL: boogabooga
Right, but doesn't that mean that an entire "regiment" or whatever could be taken out with one GBU hit?

No, why would you think that? Sure, if use it out of the box without adding the mounts to build the unit your trying to represent then sure one hit will take it out. But if you actually build out brigade with the correct number of vehicle mounts then no, one hit will not destroy the whole unit. At most if your using cluster bombs, or a large enough bomb, you might take out more then one mount with a single hit but one hit should never completely destroy the unit.

ORIGINAL: boogabooga
I think a main problem with ground ops is that "infantry" behave like land gunboats (a handful of MG and heavy weapon mounts that all move together). There is no sense that there are dozens or hundreds of individuals that scatter, take cover, storm buildings, etc. At least, not without a LOT of Lua and some imagination.

If that's level of ground combat your looking for your better off playing another game.

[BDukes]

Just checked and seemed consistent with Kushan is reporting.

Check the vehicle component dispersal radius for the unit used. That will usually tell the tale. If you add a bunch of units to one with a unit with a 50m unit dispersal rating your likely hood of that happening with a big munition is much greater. Looks like the larger units in the DB have reasonable dispersal distances so I'd use them when you can.

Any idea what combination might have happened with bb?

Mike

[boogabooga]

ORIGINAL: Kushan04

ORIGINAL: boogabooga
Right, but doesn't that mean that an entire "regiment" or whatever could be taken out with one GBU hit?

No, why would you think that? Sure, if use it out of the box without adding the mounts to build the unit your trying to represent then sure one hit will take it out. But if you actually build out brigade with the correct number of vehicle mounts then no, one hit will not destroy the whole unit. At most if your using cluster bombs, or a large enough bomb, you might take out more then one mount with a single hit but one hit should never completely destroy the unit.

Like BDukes says, it's the dispersal radius that counts. I just pumped an Inf (Generic) with a 50m radius up to 14 MG mounts. I took out 8 of them with a single 2000 lb-er, so yeah, those are quite vulnerable to air attack. I guess one has to be careful to use a 500m unit to represent the large stuff, but there again you have the issue of a large body moving/acting/being targeted as a single entity.

ORIGINAL: Kushan04

ORIGINAL: boogabooga
I think a main problem with ground ops is that "infantry" behave like land gunboats (a handful of MG and heavy weapon mounts that all move together). There is no sense that there are dozens or hundreds of individuals that scatter, take cover, storm buildings, etc. At least, not without a LOT of Lua and some imagination.

If that's level of ground combat your looking for your better off playing another game.

I'm not saying that I want to play another game, I'm just pointing out-in a thread about hypothetical ground op improvements- an elephant in the room.